Has Pioneer caught up with Panny black levels? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Four years ago the big question was to go with the Pioneer that had deep color that popped out at you or go with superior black levels of the Panny.I went with the Pioneer 433cmx and of course I immediately saw the deficient black levels of the Pioneer but i learned to live with it.Over 5100 hours later I still love my Pioneer and blacks in hd are fine but still at times i wonder what I missed.Im now in the market for a 50 and would like to stick with Pioneer thus my question.I dont want to miss anything this time around.

Matt
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post #2 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I really cant tell in store but it looks like Pioneer has big improvement in balcks from my set.Would love an owner of a Pioneer to chime in on this.

Matt
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post #3 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 11:53 AM
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I will be returning a panny600u today or tomorrow because I find the blacks to be too black, sacrificing detail. The blacks in m pioneer are much more realistic and balanced.
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post #4 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 12:11 PM
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pioneer blacks are a close second to panasonic. and i mean real close. while im at it, they're so close its a moot point to make your decision on the subject. depth of black is one thing, black level with good detail is another. the panasonic's ansi contrast rating cant hold a candle to the pioneer. this results in a more stable black level and a more separated black resulting in a more 3-dimensional image. not to mention the pioneer has the most accurate colors featured on a plasma, besides a slight green push, but i dont see it.
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post #5 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 12:45 PM
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I think it is perfect. Identical to the Panasonic but added benefit of better color. Awesome set, stunning.

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post #6 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 12:56 PM
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It's pretty much the consensus.

Big Panasonics buffs will say they are black enough to be a decision maker. Pioneer lovers will say not too big of a deal.

Comparing the two, I'd agree with the later. Especially when one has a backlight behind the TV set, the differences are even less noticeable. As far as color and pop goes? Pioneer wins hands down.

Not to mention video processing/scaling, connectivity, and all around beauty that comes with having a Pioneer.

I've been hearing that the Panasonic Consumers have more options for ISF people however. Though that has been split. Do take into account I've never seen a set like this Pioneer that render colors so accurately... period.

It's really not a fair comparison. The Panny comes in at usually a grand less. Whether or not you notice or cherish what you get w/ that extra 1000 the deciding factor.

I personally think (IMO) the Panny design is hideous. Not Westinghouse hideous but close. Might as well keep that CRT imo. :)

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post #7 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 01:33 PM
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Have you seen a plasma properly calibtrated via the service menu by a really qualified tech? If you did, you would not think that the Pioneer colors are all that accurate IMHO.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #8 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip
Have you seen a plasma properly calibtrated via the service menu by a really qualified tech? If you did, you would not think that the Pioneer colors are all that accurate IMHO.
That's it. I am just talking out of the box.

I have yet to see this accurate of a digital TV out of the box. I am sure a perfectly calibrated set would look even more accurate.

It's like fine tuning a Ferrari. It already runs great... a professional calibration would make it run better.

I am speaking in terms of both sets, Panny and Panasonic non-calibrated via Service Menu.

It doesn't matter to me. Those sports game are as accurate as need be. I've been to the Staples Center. I've been to Angel Stadium. And what I saw was what I would have seen sitting in the stands.

I do believe that the Pioneers already have their primary colors at more correct color points though. I may be wrong. But many others, and professional reviewers (i.e. C-net) have stated this.

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post #9 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 02:57 PM
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I spoke to an ISFer yesterday who is in the middle of calibrating a 600U and said the thing is "all over the place". If I were confident that the panny could produce a pioneer pic, then it would be worth it to get one, spend the 400 bucks and pocket the other 6-800.
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post #10 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 06:02 PM
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For my money, a properly calibrated commercial Panny beats a Pioneer without a doubt. Just my opinion though. I have not seen a better plasma picture.

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post #11 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbozi
I will be returning a panny600u today or tomorrow because I find the blacks to be too black, sacrificing detail. The blacks in m pioneer are much more realistic and balanced.
Have you applied the latest firmware... that was one of the listed bugfixes.

Eric

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post #12 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 06:06 PM
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JWhip are you speaking about two ISF calibrated sets? If so, you are incorrect.
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post #13 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip
For my money, a properly calibrated commercial Panny beats a Pioneer without a doubt. Just my opinion though. I have not seen a better plasma picture.
I am sure some people would prefer the Panasonic. It really is preference.

But I can only go by what my eyes see. And I totally prefer out of the box the Pio over any Panasonic set I've seen... consumer professional whatever.

As far as a professional calibration goes, to avoid fanboyism, I've only relied on the magazines and online articles on two sets.

C-Net, which I can safely say are bonefide Panasonic fanboys (and have been in the past) have given the color accuracy crown to Pioneer. That says alot to me. And out of the box, I've had very little complaints.

It is a tad bit green, and greens do pop a bit much, taking the attention away from others but I believe alot of plasmas and flat panels in general do this. No display is perfect.

But when you take into account, asthetics/processing/color accuracy/black levels/connections/convenience I think Pioneer ranks up there with the best... well worth the premium price regardless of what anyone says of Panasonic.

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post #14 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 06:41 PM
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Agreed. There are sure to be some objective, measurable differences between the performance, meaning an ISF'd Pioneer likely won't look exactly like an ISF'd Panny. But I'm guessing the current gen of each are probably close enough that it will fall to personal preference (and price sensitivity).
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post #15 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg3
Has Pioneer caught up with Panny black levels?
Pioneer's black levels are "very close" to Panasonic. "optivity's" first PDP was a Panasonic TH-50PX50U... but he is inclined to go with a Pioneer PDP the next time he buys.
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post #16 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 07:04 PM
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I was comparing the 60 inch Pioneer sitting right next to a 58 inch panny yesterday and I assume neither was calibrated, but the Panny's picture blew the Pioneers away, and it was over 1000 dollars cheaper. I think the look of the Panny case is hideous, but for a better picture at 1000 bucks less, I think I can live with the silver casing.
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post #17 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyehill
I was comparing the 60 inch Pioneer sitting right next to a 58 inch panny yesterday and I assume neither was calibrated, but the Panny's picture blew the Pioneers away, and it was over 1000 dollars cheaper. I think the look of the Panny case is hideous, but for a better picture at 1000 bucks less, I think I can live with the silver casing.
Comparing two sets not professionally calibrated is one thing. Comparing two sets in store where the most horrid settings can plague sets are another.

Dynamic modes suck. Best Buy and Circuit City employees don't know crap. I can not put that plainly enough.

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post #18 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 07:55 PM
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Here we go again...there are some fairly recent, long threads on this, including one I started a month or so ago regarding Panasonic blacks vs. Pio colors. My conclusion from all this discussion: properly calibrated, most people, in most situations, will be hard pressed to really tell much of a difference between the two, and it ultimately comes down to aesthetics and price sensitivity.
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post #19 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro2
Here we go again...there are some fairly recent, long threads on this, including one I started a month or so ago regarding Panasonic blacks vs. Pio colors. My conclusion from all this discussion: properly calibrated, most people, in most situations, will be hard pressed to really tell much of a difference between the two, and it ultimately comes down to aesthetics and price sensitivity.
Hehe, of course.

It's not like this is a Maxent vs. Panny thread. Obviously any of us would be happy with the PQ either gives. But in general, Pioneer gives a certain vibe, and Panny gives a certain vibe.

Whether or not the "subtle" differences are seen by "normal Joe" is irellevant to the people who prefer one brand or the other.

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post #20 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 08:28 PM
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I've seen them both side by side and I think they look almost equal. I think the Pio has a slightly better asthetic look to it. Some people say the Pio has better PQ, I didn't see it vs. the Panny, they really looked quite equal virtually indistiguishable in all except one thing, PRICE! For any slight difference it wasn't worth the extra $400 + for the Pio.

I have the Panny ISF calibrated and the new firmware and look fantastic.
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post #21 of 30 Old 11-28-2006, 08:28 PM
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I've seen them both side by side and I think they look almost equal. I think the Pio has a slightly better asthetic look to it. Some people say the Pio has better PQ, I didn't see it vs. the Panny, they really looked quite equal virtually indistiguishable in all except one thing, PRICE! For any slight difference it wasn't worth the extra $400 + for the Pio.

I have the Panny ISF calibrated and the new firmware and looks fantastic.
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post #22 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 04:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro2
Here we go again...there are some fairly recent, long threads on this, including one I started a month or so ago regarding Panasonic blacks vs. Pio colors. My conclusion from all this discussion: properly calibrated, most people, in most situations, will be hard pressed to really tell much of a difference between the two, and it ultimately comes down to aesthetics and price sensitivity.
Take this from a Panasonic owner... while their PDPs provide a good picture... in general, Pioneer PDPs look a "wee bit" better.
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post #23 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 05:34 AM
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I only perfer the panny because of the price. Pioneer plasma 42 inch can't be had for 569.99 plus tax.
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post #24 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter740
I only perfer the panny because of the price. Pioneer plasma 42 inch can't be had for 569.99 plus tax.
And niether can the Panasonic....except on Black Friday with additional rewardzone/gift card credits.
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post #25 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Heres a weird concept.My Pioneer 433cmx has over 5100 hours and 46 months on it and it seems to me my black level in all inputs are much better than they were in my first year of usage.Dont say im used to it because Ive really spent a lot of time viewing other sets to compare so I can tell you its now close to blacks on panny.At first they were a dull grey but now they are pretty vibrant on hd and dvd and acceptable on sd cable.Im also down to a -4 in my black setting and a -1 in contrast which would have looked way too dark when I first bought the set.Mabe the pq changes for the better rather than gets dull the way some say will happen as a plasma ages?Im still ready for a 50 but i might just wait for a 1080 set just to be sure Im getting the latest technology and i will go with Pioneer again.

Matt
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post #26 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro2
Here we go again...there are some fairly recent, long threads on this, including one I started a month or so ago regarding Panasonic blacks vs. Pio colors. My conclusion from all this discussion: properly calibrated, most people, in most situations, will be hard pressed to really tell much of a difference between the two, and it ultimately comes down to aesthetics and price sensitivity.
Ditto. I compared for weeks. Bought the PIO
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post #27 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
And niether can the Panasonic....except on Black Friday with additional rewardzone/gift card credits.
Sorry I didn't buy mine's on BF... And it didn't need no reward zone or gift cards. Just some Price matching and upgrading to direct tv. If you don't believe it go to FW and see it for yourself. I bought it for 569.99 plus tax.
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post #28 of 30 Old 11-29-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter740
Sorry I didn't buy mine's on BF... And it didn't need no reward zone or gift cards. Just some Price matching and upgrading to direct tv. If you don't believe it go to FW and see it for yourself. I bought it for 569.99 plus tax.

Oh you are talking about this:

"I price matched to ** and the deal worked very well for me I guess.

TV Came to 569.99 ($1599.99 - $300 (** PM) - 10% ** coupon - $600 (Direct TV + Install))
Home installation $200 (Panasonic $200 rebate should take care of it).....

Bottom Line, I got the TV for $569.99 + Tax"

So you got it with a price match, coupon (like I said before and this coupon has expired), D* contract (more than likely a 2 year contract), and a mail-in rebate (which takes weeks for you to receive)? Some deal :rolleyes:

Mods, I know I may be border line breaking pricing rules. However, I have edited out the store names and would like to use the quote for that sight to point out that this really isn't a "deal" on a Panasonic plasma.
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post #29 of 30 Old 11-30-2006, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Four years ago they credited the Panny glass as being the reason blacks were so good.Has this proven to be true now since from this post Pioneer sounds like it has caught up and maybe surpassed in the area of black level?

Matt
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post #30 of 30 Old 11-30-2006, 10:04 AM
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in other words... not you did NOT get it for $569.

if Direct TV was not involved... then maybe.

they offerd free direct TV on Black Friday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
Oh you are talking about this:

"I price matched to ** and the deal worked very well for me I guess.

TV Came to 569.99 ($1599.99 - $300 (** PM) - 10% ** coupon - $600 (Direct TV + Install))
Home installation $200 (Panasonic $200 rebate should take care of it).....

Bottom Line, I got the TV for $569.99 + Tax"

So you got it with a price match, coupon (like I said before and this coupon has expired), D* contract (more than likely a 2 year contract), and a mail-in rebate (which takes weeks for you to receive)? Some deal :rolleyes:

Mods, I know I may be border line breaking pricing rules. However, I have edited out the store names and would like to use the quote for that sight to point out that this really isn't a "deal" on a Panasonic plasma.
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