8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Stretching the truth aren't we? Your PX500U's front glass is no where near the gloss black bezel color. Even when it is off. So how can it be "really black" when it is on?

I did not say that but it is a reference point of what black is, yes?
You are wrong about 'being no where near' black as it is pretty close.
It is NOT grey which was my point.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that you have the black outer bezel, then the darker finish on the glass (real black) and then the less dark screen itself which you can see. The screen and outer bezel are not that far apart in black level.


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post #272 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Well, absent a size-comparable side-by-side of finished products, any judgment is a bit meaningless.

That said, give me an LCD with the latest Samsung filtering tech, 120Hz refresh and a modulated LED backlight and put it up against this Pioneer and we'd have two wonderfully stellar choices to look at.

I gotta say the incremental improvements from Panasonic are impressive -- notably the out-of-the-box reference calibration coming later this year and the 1080p spreading throught the line. The mammoth CR improvement from Pioneer was stunning. But the sum total of LCD improvements -- when all available in real product -- are a quantum leap and certainly go a decent ways to closing the picture-quality gap between the two technologies.

To me, this CES demonstrated that very mature technologies can be improved significantly. And both are good enough platforms to take us into the next decade. The Sony OLED prototype pointed toward an even more impressive future, but honestly, I think plasma and LCD are both heading to 20,000:1 on/off CR and ~1000:1 simultaneous. Whatever market might exist for LCD or plasma competitors has gotten even smaller.

And really, keeping the focus on the new Pioneer, I sure as heck hope they can ship the stuff this year.

I my memory is correct, CES 2006, Panasonic displayed their 50" 1080p prototype... with no model number or finalized bezel. That 1same 080p prototype came out last month....ahead of schedule. Why would you doubt Pioneer cannot meet it's "ahead of schedule" release target?

If Panasonic announced this new tech in stead of Pioneer, there would be a celebration on AVS 100 times more grand than someone winning a 300 million dollar lotto. Why is that?


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post #273 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I did not say that but it is a reference point of what black is, yes?
You are wrong about 'being no where near' black as it is pretty close.
It is NOT grey which was my point.

No and hell no at that. Put a jet black cardboard cutout next to your plasma, turn out the lights, and make sure no content is being displayed on your panel. Tell me which one is black and which is dark gray.

As i understand it, your "real black" perception is coming from the ANSI contrast ratio of your Panasonic. Last time I had a discussion regarding ANSI, I was shot down by Panasonic proponents. Can you guys provide me a rule list pointing out when it is ok to tout ANSI and On/Off contrast ratios? Do you have to be a Panasonic exclusive owner?


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post #274 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I did not say that but it is a reference point of what black is, yes?
You are wrong about 'being no where near' black as it is pretty close.
It is NOT grey which was my point.


Not to get into an arguement. I don't really want to. And I just know these things just end with bitterness.

But do take into account what 'black' is... is relative. Just line up a CRT vs. a Plasma, show a really dark scene as said Spider-Man 2 scene and I hardly would believe any person would say the Plasma conveyed "black".

Are Plasmas extremely deep for digital displays so far? Yes.

But in my opinion, they are not nearly as dark as they should be and even in terms of good movie theaters they're not as black as they should be. I have a 7th gen Pioneer, and I've seen a Panasonic 9uk.

We can debate on how much blacker... or not black the Pios are compared to Panasonic. And we can debate on what is 'close' and 'not close'.

But black to me constitues as blend into the background dark. No plasma in the complete dark can do this on a dark scene.... let alone a black screen.

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post #275 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

We can debate on how much blacker... or not black the Pios are compared to Panasonic. And we can debate on what is 'close' and 'not close'.

But black to me constitues as blend into the background dark. No plasma in the complete dark can do this on a dark scene.... let alone a black screen.

Your points and those from DNice are noted and I do see what you guys are saying. I did not mean to imply that the blacks on my 8th Gen Panasonic are true black as I am sure just by looking at the black on the inner bezel, it can be much better but I would not call it grey.


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post #276 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Stretching the truth aren't we? Your PX500U's front glass is no where near the gloss black bezel color. Even when it is off. So how can it be "really black" when it is on?

Wait, so in the picture I saw, with the new Pioneers. Their screens looked gray in the light too. Unless that was a bad picture, or I am sadly mistaken...

How can it reproduce true black in the daytime? Am I missing something?

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post #277 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Your points and those from DNice are noted and I do see what you guys are saying. I did not mean to imply that the blacks on my 8th Gen Panasonic are true black as I am sure just by looking at the black on the inner bezel, it can be much better but I would not call it grey.

Exactly

Anything digital has dark greys to me. Black is black. Metallica t-shirts are black. Venom's costume in Spider-Man 3 is black. Ink is black.

Really dark scenes in current plasmas?

GRAY

But do take into account, Pioneer and Panasonic are ahead of the game in terms of black level compared to alot of other digital displays. So I guess that's what you mean right?

All relative

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post #278 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Exactly

Anything digital has dark greys to me. Black is black. Metallica t-shirts are black. Venom's costume in Spider-Man 3 is black. Ink is black.

Really dark scenes in current plasmas?

GRAY

Aha..so the real mystery is when black turns to grey.


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post #279 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Aha..so the real mystery is when black turns to grey.

Yes.

When my metallica t-shirt fades from too much washing...

After Venom takes a bath...

And when ink is mixed with a little bit a white...

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post #280 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Yes.

When my metallica t-shirt fades from too much washing...

After Venom takes a bath...

And when ink is mixed with a little bit a white...

I guess black levels are much more of a 'grey area' then we all thought.


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post #281 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I guess black levels are much more of a 'grey area' then we all thought.

Oh God, pun!!

Oi. Oi... Oi...

Elmental1 that was either so good... or so bad that it was good. Haha.

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post #282 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:32 PM
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I was with my girlfriend at the time. (She just loves my tv ways, doesn't everyone's? ) Anyway, I'm minding my own business. I'm real up close and personal with the Pioneer Pro-FHD1 for the first time. I'm checking to see how black it is, sure enough its not quite "black", like the same kind of black I'm used to seeing with a CRT. I say to myself "Crap! This plasma is awesome, just if it were black". The Best Buy salesman comes up to me and asks if I need help. I say no. Then he comes by a bit later, wondering what I'm up to. I tell him "I'm checking blacks". He gets so confused and wants to know what black. To cut the story short, in the end he's still confused, and just says "looks black to me". Shaking his head walking away, thinking I'm some sort of crazy person.
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post #283 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Oh God, pun!!

Oi. Oi... Oi...

Elmental1 that was either so good... or so bad that it was good. Haha.

Hehe...It's good to be bad.
Ya know....I just looked at the black on this Dell 1907FP (on this page) and it is pretty darn black.


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post #284 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Wait, so in the picture I saw, with the new Pioneers. Their screens looked gray in the light too. Unless that was a bad picture, or I am sadly mistaken...

How can it reproduce true black in the daytime? Am I missing something?

Uh oh, trouble in Pioneer black paradise?
Just wait until the LCD guys hear this.


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post #285 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

I was with my girlfriend at the time. (She just loves my tv ways, doesn't everyone's? ) Anyway, I'm minding my own business. I'm real up close and personal with the Pioneer Pro-FHD1 for the first time. I'm checking to see how black it is, sure enough its not quite "black", like the same kind of black I'm used to seeing with a CRT. I say to myself "Crap! This plasma is awesome, just if it were black". The Best Buy salesman comes up to me and asks if I need help. I say no. Then he comes by a bit later, wondering what I'm up to. I tell him "I'm checking blacks". He gets so confused and wants to know what black. To cut the story short, in the end he's still confused, and just says "looks black to me". Shaking his head walking away, thinking I'm some sort of crazy person.

hah - Best Buy salesmen are classic. I feel sorry for the people who blindly purchase things from there based on their "experts". The worst is computers.

I have however, run into a couple salesmen there who actually knew what they were talking about. They're always very young, because sadly no one very intelligent stays working as a Best Buy salesman very long.

About the FHD1 blacks, I agree. If they were as black as my 5070 (or better!) I probably would have bitten the bullet and bought one of those instead. I have a feeling when the new 60" 1080p 20,000:1 CR Pioneers hit the market, my new 5070 will be moved to the bedroom.
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post #286 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Yep .

Contrast Ratio is a pointless statistic... especially if your TV set can get blackhole black.

You are so correct, but when I do get another set to compliment it, I want to now that spec.
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post #287 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bwclark View Post

My new Panny 65" Pro 1080p is absolutely magnificient! Very good blacks..............in fact when I go near it with any great amount of black in the picture, I make sure I take my flashlight so I don't get lost......

HeHeHeHaHA
I got you beat though, I have cut on all the lights in my house in the day time and open the windows to let the sun in so my XBR960 Black hole does not Suck everything in.
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post #288 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 11:34 PM
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[quote=reio-ta]I thought I wouldn't have to get into why but, you can like the result and not how it gets it or the quality of that result. Sure CRT does show the shadows and has a superb shadow detail. It doesn't however have a great contrast ratio. A CRT never quite become pitch black, it's able to have a huge dynamic contrast ratio of over 30,0000:1 but a lousy 800:1 CR. CRT has a lousy on/off CR compared to LCD. You can give the LCD a checker pattern and then measure light output, which will beat the CRT hands down. But put in a really dark movie like a few dark scenes from Alien, you see nothing at all but blackness. All current plasmas even have that problem to some extent.

CRT is bad because:

1) It's fuzzy and soft, not quite as sharp
2) I get headaches from the refresh cycle, bad flicker!
3) convergence, no CRT is 100% perfect (plasma is 100% perfect)
4) banding issues
5) floating blacks, dc restoration issues
6) can't hang it on the wall
7) not cool, impressing the Jones's is very important!
8) You just don't get the "punch" of a plasma
9) Pixels bleed, if you set the brightness too high you never bloom on plasma
10) barrel distortion, which is why a CRT will overscan
11) can't get 1:1 1080p
12) size limited. Largest CRT HDTV is the 34" Sony. Way too small!

XBR960: I just had to take up for my friend, he doesnt talk,
I disagree with most, what CRT were you watching or are you just generalizing it's faults as I could of Plasmas or LCDs or RP
.
CRTs are bad because they stop making the good ones and they are not improving, I dont think CES announced any by Sony, the best CRT makers.
So I am forced to get newer tech for my next set. Plasma, led LCD, OLED, SED.

Heres my rebuke:
CRTS are
1) Detailed Sharp and clear, best SD, best HD
2)No headaches, flickering is no more noticeable then flickering on LCDs and Plasmas
3)Geometry is a fault, I agree with you there, however I have heard of many digital displays that are not perfect perfect but much better than CRTS, mine is almost perfect.
4)Banding is a problem with more than just CRTs, haha
5)Floating blacks? not sure what that is, but it is better than floating grays, dc restoration, Dont know what that means??
6) Can hang on the wall go to any hospital, walmart, etc. for the last 30 years.

7)Very Cool! I get nothing but compliments for the style of tv and more important the picture quality and for going against the slim is in craze, although some think I have a flat screen, the sony stand gives it that illusion.RETRO MAN!

8)MuchMore Punch than Any Plasma I have seen so far, havent seen the CES models or the Panasonic 65 and 103" though.

9)Apples and oranges here, but true it will bloom if set to high as Plamas can still have image retention if it's settings are to high, Pixels can bleed or you can have stuck always on always off pixels on a plasmas, again apples and oranges pick your poison.

10)Any display can have overscan, true CRTS usually have more, mine is about 2-2.5 percent after calibration.

11) Not true, 1080P and above have neen available on most high end Computer monitors since the early to mid 90's, long before lcd or plasma.

On HDTV you are limited to 1440x1080i (1.5 million pixels)-true 480P-960i-540P and with a good video card you can come close to 720P something like 1163x683. Resolution comes way behind so many other things when it comes to PQ as has been proven by many tests.

12)Size limited is so true, I believe the biggest was 40" I came from a 27" so 34" was not to small for me PQ trumps screen size everytime, also the pixels are closer on this size you cant even see the pixel strure unless you are like 1 feet away , thhis gives a silky smooth looking out an open window look.end:

Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

So I don't see what there is to like about CRT one bit. But there is everything to love about plasma, except less than stellar dynamic range and shadow detail compared to CRT. CRT is a dying technology, but until those two characteristics, which everyone touts to exude why "CRT IS THE BEST!", there will always be those people. So I wasn't being "contradictory" as you say. DC restoration is a HUGE issue with CRT. I don't like that when you get a brighter scene, the quality of the black changes, which is why it has such a high dynamic range, but black levels are not good at all!

XBR960: What SD HDTV have you've been viewing, it muct not be a quality calibrated set, I wouldnt like that one either, it is like seeing a plasma with big burn in and reflection issues and saying all plasmas are that bad or an LCD with ghosting and motion artifacts, bad color gray blacks and saying they are all that bad.
A lot of things we watch and see in print are still mastered on "Quality CRTS, yes there is crap CRTS out there, but many are great.

In general most experts still believe Quality CRTs still give the best PQ, Even many TV manufactors have said as much and they are still trying to reach that point, they all cant be wrong.
That said my next TV wont be CRT, unless I can find a XBR960, but a plasma,LED LCD, OLED or sed
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post #289 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 11:43 PM
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Thanks for the link, It said the Panny's were ISF calibrated but didnt mention if the 32" CRT was or not or what brand or year it was made, Interesting, I will definately have Panasonic on my short list.
It also didnt say what parts of the test the CRT won or lost and if the test was done by independant testing or not.


"Panasonic has an entirely new lineup of plasmas scheduled for mid-year introduction. The top 750 series (with new models in 42-, 50, and 58-inch sizes) will include ISF adjustment and tweaks for improved picture quality. No prices were suggested. In a darkened area, Panasonic was demoing a 58-inch design against a 32-inch pro CRT monitor. The plasma arguably won by a nose in image quality and by a mile in impact".
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post #290 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 12:08 AM
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I would like to know how Fujitsu's new plasmas compare with these new Pioneer plasmas. And the Panasonics. I am looking to purchase a 50" 1080P plasma this fall.

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His name is Samsung TXM2796HF 27" DynaFlat HDTV.

Right now he's been a very bad boy and has been beat very harshly, so he's too sore to talk right now. He only has about 18,500 hours of viewing time. All that I state, he now has gotten. Hopefully with the new SED killer Pioneer plasma, I can lock the naughty boy in the basement and visit him once in a while. So then I can laugh and kick him a few times!
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post #292 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 12:32 AM
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Would anyone who has had their current model year pioneer plasma professionally calibrated and as such had the idle condition of the plasma lowered achieving darker black levels comment. Seems that I remember someone in another thread commenting that his calibrator had done this.

If this is correct, lowering the black level on current plasmas might not be much more than a proper professional calibration by someone who knows how to do this.

That's got to cost less than buying a new plasma.

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post #293 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Would anyone who has had their current model year pioneer plasma professionally calibrated and as such had the idle condition of the plasma lowered achieving darker black levels comment. Seems that I remember someone in another thread commenting that his calibrator had done this.

If this is correct, lowering the black level on current plasmas might not be much more than a proper professional calibration by someone who knows how to do this.

That's got to cost less than buying a new plasma.

I have heard some stories, specifically one of the Pro-FHD1 owners saying that they lowered the absolute black level on the set.

I have never heard of this before that, but I guess we have to take his word for it. But even if that IS the case no ifs ands or buts, no matter how well you calibrate, we can all agree that the black improvement is no where near CRT quality... or SED demo quality for that matter.

It's once again, just a darker shade of dark grey. Percentage points in foot lamberts. These new Pioneers are apparently pitch black when turned on a black screen. That's black level performance that is not just 'a bit improved'. That is freakishly mega improved.

Easy test. Sit in the dark. Turn on your Plasma with no signal... then turn it off. Compare and contrast. There's no amount of calibrating that can get your Plasma to look like its turned completely off beyond hitting that power button.

Oh wait.. you could cover it with a black towel! That might affect shadow detail though...

Maybe...

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post #294 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 05:30 AM
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D-Nice:

Will the 1920x1080p 60" model of the forthcoming Pioneer be, effectively, an Elite "PRO-FHD2" equivalent, i.e. the successor to the current Elite PRO-FHD1? Or will it be a "regular" line version, with whatever the PRO-FHD1's successor is something that comes later on?

I was blown away by the PRO-FHD1 at my local Best Buy, but if this forthcoming 60" 1080p model is the same as a PRO-FHD1 but with better blacks and 10" bigger, I'm sold.
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post #295 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post


It's once again, just a darker shade of dark grey. Percentage points in foot lamberts. These new Pioneers are apparently pitch black when turned on a black screen. That's black level performance that is not just 'a bit improved'. That is freakishly mega improved.

Easy test. Sit in the dark. Turn on your Plasma with no signal... then turn it off. Compare and contrast. There's no amount of calibrating that can get your Plasma to look like its turned completely off beyond hitting that power button.

When I watch my Pioneer 6070 plasma at night, its with a little light on in the room(probably the 5% back light recommendation). When content isn't screwed up, I find the blacks good enough. Far better than the LCD rear projector it replaced. I do have a problem where shows crush blacks and I have to bump up brightness one notch and then its obvious that blacks are affected, but you'd have this same problem with a CRT.

Sure, an absolute black with a "7 ire" signal would be nice, but I don't think in normal viewing its that big an issue over the current Pioneer black levels. It's not like sitting in a totally dark room watching a black screen considered "normal viewing?"

The part of Pioneer's announcement that's I find more interesting is bright room performance. How exactly they can do this with filters and without some ill side effect, I'm eager to see.

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post #296 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 05:40 AM
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Summer 2007 in US. What about Europe/UK? Also we don't have 6070 over here yet. Any ideas on that too?
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post #297 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 06:50 AM
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Can anyone guess what the MSRP would be for a 768P 6080HD? If there even is one?
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post #298 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruZZi View Post

I totally agree !!!

But at least those that had a chance to see the new Pioneer Models are very impressed.

So It's a good sign.

Has anyone located some pictures of the new Pio Plasma showing how it performs in a bright room. I have some recollection of having read about a Pioneer claim, that this new Plasma would look as good as LCD in daytime conditions. Has anyone seen it demonstrated in such a setting?.
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post #299 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Has anyone located some pictures of the new Pio Plasma showing how it performs in a bright room. I have some recollection of having read about a Pioneer claim, that this new Plasma would look as good as LCD in daytime conditions. Has anyone seen it demonstrated in such a setting?.

The weird thing is that those pics earlier in the thread look almost like a 'painted' black. Looks neat but almost unreal.


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post #300 of 5892 Old 01-11-2007, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The main reason why Pioneer said this new tech is going to "cost more" is in direct relation to falling plasma prices. You will not be able to get this tech in a 1.3k 42" plasma, 2k 50" plasma, or 3k 58+ plasma.

But do you think that the 8th gen 1080p 50" "super" plasma that uses the new filter/new asic processor/80% lower black levels etc. (that is allegedly better than SED and LCD etc.) will have a list price of less than the $8000 that the Pro-FHD1 currently shows on Pioneer's website?

I know you can get the FHD1 for less, but all we can theorize about right now is list pricing.

Based on the MSRP we can guess at what kind of a deal we might be able to negotiate at different authorized resellers etc.

Do you think the MSRP would be $7000, $6000, $5000? I know it's all speculation at this point.

BTW, thank you so much for all of the valuable information you have provided in the different threads, including this one.

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