8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Post #254 from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3&page=5&pp=60



I take back the "acceptable" part as being your words. However you did say they were "OK" and based on the entire post, the black levels were "acceptable".

Forgive the double negative.
Quote:
not insignificantly higher

is the same as saying
Quote:
significantly higher

. Now if something is significate then I think it is a BAD thing. Now are you following me? Yikes.

Now, back to something important, the playoff game

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post #542 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:30 AM
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Perhaps this has been mentioned in the thread but peak power consumption figures do not mean much, they are just that, the peak power consumption of the unit. I have read from many sources that most Plasma's consume, on average, the same amount of power as a similarly sized LCD; actually some have said it is often less. This is of course because the power consumption of the LCD is going to be almost constant (maybe fluctuating a watt or two) whereas the plasma fluctuates dramatically depending on the content and the contrast and brightness settings. I would like to provide a link to the sources but a simple google-ing will yield the same results. Even if these results are a bit exagerrated I bet most plasma's consume about the same or just a little more than most LCD's.
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post #543 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:31 AM
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Hmm...I still see an 'OK' in there.

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post #544 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:35 AM
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That is true, those .045 comments were made about the 65" 1080p Panasonic. So, they do need to be compared to the FHD1. I'm not taking sides, just trying to clarify. Personally I don't care one way or another, because I won't be upgrading my 6070 for some time to come. (According to the wife anyways )

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post #545 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marky_Mark896 View Post

That is true, those .045 comments were made about the 65" 1080p Panasonic. So, they do need to be compared to the FHD1. I'm not taking sides, just trying to clarify. Personally I don't care one way or another, because I won't be upgrading my 6070 for some time to come. (According to the wife anyways )

How's that energy bill.

Edit: Isn't that reading from the 50" commercial?

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post #546 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marky_Mark896 View Post

That is true, those .045 comments were made about the 65" 1080p Panasonic. So, they do need to be compared to the FHD1. I'm not taking sides, just trying to clarify. Personally I don't care one way or another, because I won't be upgrading my 6070 for some time to come. (According to the wife anyways )

Actually it was for the 50" model.
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post #547 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:44 AM
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I think my plasma is the least of my worries on my energy expenditure. Now if I can get my wife and kids to turn off the 19 60W bulbs in the kitchen when they walk out, that would be great. Also if they wouldn't leave their computers on all day long, and I could plug all the leaks under and around doors, windows etc, then i'd be happy.

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post #548 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marky_Mark896 View Post

I think my plasma is the least of my worries on my energy expenditure. Now if I can get my wife and kids to turn off the 19 60W bulbs in the kitchen when they walk out, that would be great. Also if they wouldn't leave their computers on all day long, and I could plug all the leaks under and around doors, windows etc, then i'd be happy.

I was only kidding but do you think that 6070 is using only 250 watts or so?

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post #549 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Actually it was for the 50" model.

Yeah, but wasn't this measurement done by another person? I think it would be better to have a measurement from the same source, so we can be halfway sure it's comparable. Furthermore, in all threads about the 50PF9 I've read people said how good the black levels were. In a UK forum, an ISF calibrator claimed that he measured the black levels of the 50PF9 to be better than those of a 42PH9. I'm not claiming it actually is. I'm just saying that I'm not sure yet about how good the black level of the 50PF9 really is.
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post #550 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Forgive the double negative. is the same as saying . Now if something is significate then I think it is a BAD thing. Now are you following me? Yikes.

Now, back to something important, the playoff game

Caio bella,

- Rich

Way to come back RichB. You posted improper english....now you want to correct it after I pulled your cards....AGAIN

I think it is best you continue to watch the game....currently 7-7.
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post #551 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Actually it was for the 50" model.

Oops sorry, you're right. So that should make even better, a comparison between FHD1.

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post #552 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Yeah, but wasn't this measurement done by another person? I think it would be better to have a measurement from the same source, so we can be halfway sure it's comparable. Furthermore, in all threads about the 50PF9 I've read people said how good the black levels were. In a UK forum, an ISF calibrator claimed that he measured the black levels of the 50PF9 to be better than those of a 42PH9. I'm not claiming it actually is. I'm just saying that I'm not sure yet about how good the black level of the 50PF9 really is.

I agree that when comparing numbers they should be done by the same reviewer and source. However, RichB has a history of not following those ideas. I'm just using his own tactics and words against him....hoping to pull his more respectable personality out. So far I have failed as he continues to post propaganda.

For the record, I personally think the 50PF9UK has respectable black levels for most people. They just are not in the same league as the 768p plasmas.
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post #553 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I agree that when comparing numbers they should be done by the same reviewer and source. However, RichB has a history of not following those ideas. I'm just using his own tackings and words against him....hoping to pull his more respectable personality out. So far I have failed as he continues to post propaganda.

Great..now if his team loses, he's gonna cry.

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post #554 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Way to come back RichB. You posted improper english....now you want to correct it after I pulled your cards....AGAIN

I think it is best you continue to watch the game....currently 7-7.

Thanks, It is allowable english and understandable to most.
I will try to keep my posts to low black levels GOOD, high black levels BAD to help you follow along

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post #555 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Great..now if his team loses, he's gonna cry.

I have no Team other than the Patriots and we shall see today at 4:30

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post #556 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have no Team other than the Patriots and we shall see today at 4:30

- Rich

I will root with you on both that and black levels getting better.

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post #557 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Thanks, It is allowable english and understandable to most.
I will try to keep my posts to low black levels GOOD, high black levels BAD to help you follow along

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No thank you. Please keep your newly developed "black level classifications" to yourself. IMO, you should brush up on you basic math skills.
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post #558 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

For the record, I personally think the 50PF9UK has respectable black levels for most people. They just are not in the same league as the 768p plasmas.

What do you think about these 3 posts:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=18
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...26&postcount=5
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9386700

So how sure are you that 50PF9 black levels are really not in the same league as the 768p plasmas? FWIW, my current best guess is that 50PF9 black levels may be better than 65PF9 black levels, for whatever reason. That's the only explanation I have, cause every post I see about 50PF9 claims very good black levels, while the 65PF9 threads all seem to indicate that the 65PF9 black level can't compete with the 768p models.
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post #559 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No thank you. Please keep your newly developed "black level classifications" to yourself. IMO, you should brush up on you basic math skills.

...and both you of need to brush up on your English.

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post #560 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

What do you think about these 3 posts:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=18
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...26&postcount=5
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9386700

So how sure are you that 50PF9 black levels are really not in the same league as the 768p plasmas? FWIW, my current best guess is that 50PF9 black levels may be better than 65PF9 black levels, for whatever reason. That's the only explanation I have, cause every post I see about 50PF9 claims very good black levels, while the 65PF9 threads all seem to indicate that the 65PF9 black level can't compete with the 768p models.

Which just goes to show you that the bigger a display gets, the more it might need to compensate.
Sure follows the logic that small CRT's can have some great black levels.

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post #561 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Ah...you little sneak.
You know if they fibbed about that, they might be fibbing about black levels.

Exactly. See here is what has planted a tiny seed of scepticism about their claims. At CEATEC Oct. 2006 they were claiming a 20.000 to 1 contrast for this new panel. Yet, when they came to CES, they were claiming that the Contrast ratio was so huge that no tools existed to even actually measure it. I guess you could call it a Faith Based Contrast Stat. Now, just post CES, they have started to toss around the 20,000 to 1 contrast figure again. It sounds like the demo was very impressive, but Truth and performance stats. should be a fixed Star, and not some kind of time travel shape shifters. Trust but verify. Let us see how the deep pocket early adopters find it to be.
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post #562 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:41 AM
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Hometheatermag black level readings... or hell Black level readings in general. Why I no longer abide by them?

1) Alleged black level reading of .012 for Panasonic vs. Pio 5070 (assuming absolute black level wasn't lowered) .033

- Difference wasn't big enough to notice difference in two different houses. How many of us have both Plasmas side by side anyway? And ironically the people that have both or had both say the same exact thing. Too close to make black level an ISSUE.

2) Black level reading of Samsung 3251D LCD .032 vs. Pio 5070 (assuming absolute black level wasn't lowered .033 or Panasonic .012...

- Not even close, difference was totally noticeable. The blacks on the Pioneer or the Panny were actually much more rich and dark. I own that very same Samsung LCD, and while it's absolute black reading was apparently darker... it didn't translate.

Hmmm .032 vs. 033... but the Pioneer seemed darker.

Okay... Mcfly! Anybody home?

WTF?

Black level readings aren't very helpful it seems. C-net seems to be way more accurate with my findings. Apparently the "3x times" blacker blacks didn't affect their Performance rating on the Pio 5070.

9 (Pioneer) vs. 8 (Panasonic)

Review with your eyes!

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #563 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Hometheatermag black level readings... or hell Black level readings in general. Why I no longer abide by them?

1) Alleged black level reading of .012 for Panasonic vs. Pio 5070 (assuming absolute black level wasn't lowered) .033

That brings the 9th Gen Panasonic black level improvement into question.
I doubt the 5070 has higher black levels than my 8th Gen Panasonic....but I can hope.

Lies, damn lies....and specs

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post #564 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

That brings the 9th Gen Panasonic black level improvement into question.
I doubt the 5070 has higher black levels than my 8th Gen Panasonic....but I can hope.

Lies, damn lies....and specs

Well I am not saying that exactly. I am just saying that if there is an improvement, it defintely isn't as dramatic as the numbers Hometheatermag posted to be... at least to me... and I am a black level fiend.

Either Pioneer is deceptive with their absolute black level and it doesn't tell the whole story, (which is my theory), or my eyes are just horrifically biased towards Pioneer panels... and my brain lowers it's absolute black level... by voodoo magic.

These new Pioneers seem to be more than 3x darker than any plasma to date... and sound it! I am sure Panasonic will follow suit at a later date.

I think the plasmas today at least the best ones (pio Panny) are too close to make black level the biggest issue in a buy. Once again, it looks like these new breed plasmas are looking to change this!

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #565 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I agree that when comparing numbers they should be done by the same reviewer and source. However, RichB has a history of not following those ideas. I'm just using his own tactics and words against him....hoping to pull his more respectable personality out. So far I have failed as he continues to post propaganda.

Really. Here is my post that you yourself quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

If you take the HDTVExpert's .154 nit and convert it to Foot Lamberts I come out with .045 which is OK , but not up to the .015 published by The Perfect Vision for the PH 768P model. These are not the same reviewers and so the methodology may be a bit different, but it does suggest that it is not insignificantly higher than the lower resolution 50.

I said where they were measured and that they may not be comparable. I am trying not to call you names, but you and the truth are strangers

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No thank you. Please keep your newly developed "black level classifications" to yourself. IMO, you should brush up on you basic math skills.

Numbers do not tell the whole story, but there is still relevant information here.

HomeTheater magazine measurements of the Panasonic Black were .027 for the 8 series and .012 for the 9 series. In what universe is that not twice as good?

My original point was that Panasonic never made a big deal about it. Never announced it. So it is possible that there are improvements in the new line that have not been announced *again*. Is there something to argue about this?

The Pioneer 5060 measured at .033fl. I have not seen published measurements of the 5070's black level. If I had them, I would post them. You insist that they are *as good* or perhaps *as bad* as the current Panasonic 768P Plasmas.
Perhaps, but there is no objective measurement at this time.

Occasionally, you have some good information (at least I hope so), but you personal observations are highly biased and of little use to me. News that there are better black levels coming is great. Pioneer has pushed some aspects of Plasma performance forward like processing, film frame rates, ISF calibration, color reproduction. I applaud this. However, the black levels have always trailed. I am not sure about the newer 1080P models since Panasonic took a step backward. I have no intention of buying an upgrade until black levels are improved from some vendor. Period.

Obviously, Pioneer has a problem with black their levels, thus need to completely redesign their Plasma from the ground up.

Now as to which panel brand I buy, there is plenty of time to determine that since by the time new Pioneer arrives, the Panasonic Panels will be available and reviewed.

Right now, there is no way to form an intelligent opinion. Of course, that would stop the less "nice" posters.

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post #566 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Exactly. See here is what has planted a tiny seed of scepticism about their claims. At CEATEC Oct. 2006 they were claiming a 20.000 to 1 contrast for this new panel. Yet, when they came to CES, they were claiming that the Contrast ratio was so huge that no tools existed to even actually measure it. I guess you could call it a Faith Based Contrast Stat. Now, just post CES, they have started to toss around the 20,000 to 1 contrast figure again. It sounds like the demo was very impressive, but Truth and performance stats. should be a fixed Star, and not some kind of time travel shape shifters. Trust but verify. Let us see how the deep pocket early adopters find it to be.

Excellent post.
You deserve a Heineken for that.

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post #567 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

What do you think about these 3 posts:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=18
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showp...26&postcount=5
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9386700

So how sure are you that 50PF9 black levels are really not in the same league as the 768p plasmas? FWIW, my current best guess is that 50PF9 black levels may be better than 65PF9 black levels, for whatever reason. That's the only explanation I have, cause every post I see about 50PF9 claims very good black levels, while the 65PF9 threads all seem to indicate that the 65PF9 black level can't compete with the 768p models.

I've seen the 50PF9UK in person (at work). They're somewhat better....a very small somewhat..... when compared to the FHD-1. They are not better than the 50PH9UK, 5070, 1140, etc. The blacks have a higher glow.
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post #568 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

What do you think about these 3 posts:

So how sure are you that 50PF9 black levels are really not in the same league as the 768p plasmas? FWIW, my current best guess is that 50PF9 black levels may be better than 65PF9 black levels, for whatever reason. That's the only explanation I have, cause every post I see about 50PF9 claims very good black levels, while the 65PF9 threads all seem to indicate that the 65PF9 black level can't compete with the 768p models.

The HDTVExpert reviewed the TH-50PF9UK Plasma Monitor. He measured the black level at .154 nits (which is about .045fl). That is not directly comparable to Home Theater Magazine measurement of .012fl on the 768P 50, but it fits with information that I have received from Panasonic. Peter Putman states:
Quote:
Image contrast was clocked at 701:1 ANSI (average) and 905:1 peak, again measured in Cinema mode. That's largely due to the outstanding black level measurements I took, which averaged .154 nits

. So I guess opinions about how good this is vary widely

I am in no rush, so I am waiting for the next generation to see what they bring.
Also, I have done enough purchasing at high premiums and after witnessing the price drops this year, I think that next October/November will be the time to decide on an upgrade

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post #569 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The Pioneer 5060 measured at .033fl. I have not seen published measurements of the 5070's black level. If I had them, I would post them. You insist that they are *as good* or perhaps *as bad* as the current Panasonic 768P Plasmas.
Perhaps, but there is no objective measurement at this time.

Occasionally, you have some good information (at least I hope so), but you personal observations are highly biased and of little use to me. News that there are better black levels coming is great. Pioneer has pushed some aspects of Plasma performance forward like processing, film frame rates, ISF calibration, color reproduction. I applaud this. However, the black levels have always trailed. I am not sure about the newer 1080P models since Panasonic took a step backward. I have no intention of buying an upgrade until black levels are improved from some vendor. Period.

Obviously, Pioneer has a problem with black their levels, thus need to completely redesign their Plasma from the ground up.

Now as to which panel brand I buy, there is plenty of time to determine that since by the time new Pioneer arrives, the Panasonic Panels will be available and reviewed.

Right now, there is no way to form an intelligent opinion. Of course, that would stop the less "nice" posters.

- Rich

It's hilarious. It's getting to the point of silliness. You say D-nice is biased, a person who owns both Plasma sets and touts both Plasmas as being great. I am sure and I am certain, you haven't owned a current gen Pio.

"Obviously Pioneer has a problem with black their levels, thus need to completely redesign their plasma from the ground up."

Wow. I think niceness shouldn't be used with a comment like that. How you get from Point "A" to point "B" baffles me. Plasmas in general are not the greatest black level performers when you take into account all technologies.

If anything, EVERY plasma designer (or let's make that digital TV/flat panel designer) should redesign their plasma, yes including the almighty "Panasonic Plasmas" to improve black level.

It's not as if Panasonic has anything close to true black on a blank screen. The reason Pio is redesigning plasmas (besides trying to make us videophiles flatout broke), is to be a step ahead of the game.

This black level reduction is trying topple SEDs claims... let alone the current gen Panasonic plasmas.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #570 of 5892 Old 01-14-2007, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Numbers do not tell the whole story, but there is still relevant information here.

HomeTheater magazine measurements of the Panasonic Black were .027 for the 8 series and .012 for the 9 series. In what universe is that not twice as good?

My original point was that Panasonic never made a big deal about it. Never announced it. So it is possible that there are improvements in the new line that have not been announced *again*. Is there something to argue about this?

The Pioneer 5060 measured at .033fl. I have not seen published measurements of the 5070's black level. If I had them, I would post them. You insist that they are *as good* or perhaps *as bad* as the current Panasonic 768P Plasmas.
Perhaps, but there is no objective measurement at this time.

Occasionally, you have some good information (at least I hope so), but you personal observations are highly biased and of little use to me. News that there are better black levels coming is great. Pioneer has pushed some aspects of Plasma performance forward like processing, film frame rates, ISF calibration, color reproduction. I applaud this. However, the black levels have always trailed. I am not sure about the newer 1080P models since Panasonic took a step backward. I have no intention of buying an upgrade until black levels are improved from some vendor. Period.

Obviously, Pioneer has a problem with black their levels, thus need to completely redesign their Plasma from the ground up.

Now as to which panel brand I buy, there is plenty of time to determine that since by the time new Pioneer arrives, the Panasonic Panels will be available and reviewed.

Right now, there is no way to form an intelligent opinion. Of course, that would stop the less "nice" posters.

- Rich

I thought you were watching the game You continue to ramble on about your apparent goof ups in your posts....especially your BS claims of 3x better blacks.

For the record Panasonic did tout their improved black levels. To refrain from pulling your cards again, I suggest you go look at their press releases and specs on their 2006 models.

Quote:
Obviously, Pioneer has a problem with black their levels, thus need to completely redesign their Plasma from the ground up.

I'm going to love to see your excuse for Panasonic when they introduce their next gen tech. I wonder if they will feel that they had problems with their black levels.

You lost this battle today RichB. Be a man and accept it. However, the war is not over.......I promise you will have you chance to wear your skirt and wave your pom-poms high in the air..... How does it go RichB.... "Go Panasonic, GO!!!!!"
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