8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

It'll be under $6

Really, I would pay at leadt $10

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post #632 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

It'll be under $6

Wow, at under $6, I'll wallpaper my home with them
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post #633 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 04:43 PM
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I'd pay 20 dollars. I guess I'll just have to pay 24 and build a wall of them.

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post #634 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 05:02 PM
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I say the new Pioneer 60" tv comming out will not be over 10 retail. That is where or around the FHD1 came out at and then they tumble on down as the year goes on. It could be as low as 6 retail, as some stated.

I know Philips is not in the same league with Pioneer but at 3,500 retail for 63" and if it will show a half way decent picture, i say it will put pressure on the big boys. If the panel sux and the pic quality sux, then no it won't have much affect. 1080p, 63", is alot of tv for 3,500.

Pioneer scalers are good and at the top or up in the top plasmas. So they seem to do sd as good or better than anyone. So i would think the scaler in this next set will be very good.

Where i could be wrong, is if nothing can touch this new Pioneer plasma in black levels, nice contrast, great scalling, no judder, shows a pic in bright sunlight rooms without glare at this size and 1080p, then they probably can bump it up a more(price) and say nothing can touch this panel and we would have to pay the price. The proof is in the pudding and we won't know untill it is in stores sitting next to other high end panels to compare it to. On the other hand, if you set up a Panasonic at half the price or alot cheaper than the Pioneer and the Pioneer does not beat it by a good margin, or for that matter any other name brand that is alot cheaper than this Pioneer, people in the majority will go for the most affordable and still get a great picture.

Pioneer has set the bar high for this panel and let's all hope it is the real deal and especially on things where plasma falls short on. All technoloigies has flaws. It is none perfect yet. If this lives up to the hype, it sounds close to perfection in plasma.
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post #635 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

It'll be under $6

How could it be under $6k when the 50" FHD1, without the much improved picture, is over that?
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post #636 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 06:45 PM
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The Pioneer rep I talked to said putting 1920x1080 pixels in 60+ inches was easy, but putting that many in 50" was very hard, and thus the high price of the FHD1.

So by his logic the 60" should be cheaper

Ken
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post #637 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 08:52 PM
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My guess is an MSRP of $8,000.00. I think the days of $10 grand plasmas has gone the way of the dinosaur (except for Fujitsu, who I don't think has been informed that prices have dropped. )

I love HD...and I hated that Anti-Consumer format war.

Now that we can move on... Blu-ray > Digital Downloads!
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post #638 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 09:00 PM
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I think both Fujitsu and Sony get their pricing info from the same source
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post #639 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

How could it be under $6k when the 50" FHD1, without the much improved picture, is over that?

It's my wild guess that as soon as the panasonic 50pz750 comes out that pioneer might release a tv version of the fhd1 (maybe the 1150HD), with the same glass as the fhd1 (cnet seems to think that only the 60" 1080p will have improved blacks), and that then they will lower the price considerably to compete with that panasonic model. Then I will guess that the 65pz750 will probably be around 6-7k and then maybe it will be 7-8k for the 60" pio. That is my guess since I read the 750 series will be 50, 58, and 65, and except for the black levels it would appear to be the case from early reports that they may match the pioneer elites in greyscale tracking and color accuracy.

Then if cnet is right and only the 60" 1080p has the improved blacks, panasonic and pioneer may both release entire lines with improved blacks in 08. And then in 08, which looks like the golden time to buy a tv, we will be set upon by something equally fantastic following in 09, lol.
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post #640 of 5892 Old 01-15-2007, 09:47 PM
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If Cnet is is right? Thats a funny! Cnet is under the delusion that 60 hz progressive gives "no judder" ALL THE TIME, even with 24p sources! Also that the Pioneer 60" 1080p isn't going to have 72hz (my hope 120hz). So I really hope Cnet doesn't know what they're talking about.
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post #641 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 12:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Really, I would pay at leadt $10

- Rich

That's the area I'm thinking it will list at, $9,999.99. There something about staying under that magic $10,000.00 ceiling to entice buyers. It's amazing the perception between $9,999.99 and $10,000.01.

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post #642 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 05:30 AM
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Its interesting to note that at least for Panasonic the 1080p panel costs less than the 768p.The replacement cost for the 50pf9 is 1565.72 and the replacement cost for the 50ph9 is 1597.19.

Also of note is the fact that Pioneers Q3 numbers are due in about 2 weeks.They have not pulled a profit in home electronics in 6 straight quarters.The total loss to date is over 335 million dollars.Another large loss IMO will prevent the building of the new plant talked about last year.

No other "high end" plasma producer manufactures their own pdp's.They all outsource the panels because it would seem that in those limited volumes, like Pioneers, they could not be profitable doing it.

My point is that if the visible difference is only marginal between the new Pioneers and all the other new panels that they share shelf space with will the people be willing to pay 5-7k more for the Pioneer.

Just something to think about as numbers get thrown around.
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post #643 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

No other "high end" plasma producer manufactures their own pdp's.They all outsource the panels because it would seem that in those limited volumes, like Pioneers, they could not be profitable doing it.

I do not understand this statement. Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Hitachi make their own panels. With the exception of Fujitsu, the high end make their own panels, it is the "low" end that does not make their own panels.

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post #644 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

My point is that if the visible difference is only marginal between the new Pioneers and all the other new panels that they share shelf space with will the people be willing to pay 5-7k more for the Pioneer.

Well we only have eyewitness reports and initial reviews to go by at this point, but it sure seems that the difference between the new Pioneer and all others is quite a bit more than marginal.
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post #645 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 07:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Well we only have eyewitness reports and initial reviews to go by at this point, but it sure seems that the difference between the new Pioneer and all others is quite a bit more than marginal.

It will be marginal when they make the panel 1080p instead of 768p.
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post #646 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenLand View Post

The Pioneer rep I talked to said putting 1920x1080 pixels in 60+ inches was easy, but putting that many in 50" was very hard, and thus the high price of the FHD1.

So by his logic the 60" should be cheaper

Ken

That should make the 100in one really cheap
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post #647 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I do not understand this statement. Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Hitachi make their own panels. With the exception of Fujitsu, the high end make their own panels, it is the "low" end that does not make their own panels.

- Rich


I put high end in quotes because its a relative statement.IMO its the low volume, high cost companys like Fujitsu,Vidikron,Runco,B+O,and Loewe all of which buy their panels and package with their own processing.
Pioneer might not be completely comparable to these companies in market position but they are producing at such low volumes that I think economically they model closer to them than the large PDP producers with whom, at least the non-Elite line, they compete directly against on the same shelf in the B&M's.
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post #648 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soncomet View Post

(cnet seems to think that only the 60" 1080p will have improved blacks)

This is something I've been wondering (actually, more like greatly concerned about). When Pioneer first talked about working on a 20,000:1 contrast ratio panel (not at CES, but a while back), it did in fact sound like they were only talking about a 60" model. At the big announcement at CES or any time since, have they ever stated clearly whether or not the whole line will have the improved black levels?

There is nowhere in my house big enough for a 60" (sadly), so I'm hoping the improved black levels will be available in the smaller sizes.
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post #649 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Well we only have eyewitness reports and initial reviews to go by at this point, but it sure seems that the difference between the new Pioneer and all others is quite a bit more than marginal.

Pioneer controlled demos of pre-production panels can't really be used to evaluate the ultimate performance IMO.Even if they deliver as stated the market certainly is not static and best case,we might see these in 6 months but thats not been promised anywhere I have read.The link I posted about the closed door demo IIRC even stated into 2008.This panel could end up competing with CES 2008 models.
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post #650 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by VFR View Post

Pioneer controlled demos of pre-production panels can't really be used to evaluate the ultimate performance IMO.Even if they deliver as stated the market certainly is not static and best case,we might see these in 6 months but thats not been promised anywhere I have read.The link I posted about the closed door demo IIRC even stated into 2008.This panel could end up competing with CES 2008 models.

IMO, the new Pioneer panels will be out by May or sooner. Talking to several dealers, my impressions are that there are not a lot of 5070 or 6070 around. I know that the street price of 5070 has dropped $500 in the last few days. That means Pioneer is trying to get rid of all old stock real fast to be able to ship the new ones ASAP to get one up on 40"+ LCDs.
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post #651 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodrin View Post

It'll be under $6

Actually price will be set at $5.99 for subliminal advertising purposes. The six dollar figure would scare off a lot of potential buyers that would jump on a five dollars and something price bait. I am saving your quote to make sure I get a price match from a local vendor.
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post #652 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

Pioneer controlled demos of pre-production panels can't really be used to evaluate the ultimate performance IMO.Even if they deliver as stated the market certainly is not static and best case,we might see these in 6 months but thats not been promised anywhere I have read.The link I posted about the closed door demo IIRC even stated into 2008.This panel could end up competing with CES 2008 models.

Name one un-controlled demo at CES or any trade show. Who ever evaluates "ultimate performance" at a trade show? Thats like evaluating ultimate performance a BB.

Pioneer has committed to release these new panels no later than September 22nd. Why you have not seen it is a mystery to me as it's even on their website.
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post #653 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

It will be marginal when they make the panel 1080p instead of 768p.

The display at CES was a 1080p 60" model. The original dispay at CEATEC last year was a 60" 1080p model. Making a 1080p 60" plasma is easy compared to a 50 or 42" model.
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post #654 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The display at CES was a 1080p 60" model. The original dispay at CEATEC last year was a 60" 1080p model. Making a 1080p 60" plasma is easy compared to a 50 or 42" model.


True enough, but making deep blacks is more difficult on a 1080p model vis-a-vis any lower-rez model.

Amirm here on AVS sez the Pio CES 60" model they demoed was 768p. I was really surprised to hear that, given that the model was a 60-incher.

If the model shown was 768p it is pretty much guaranteed that the 1080p model using this "revolutionary" technology will have grayer blacks.

Unless they further tweak the tech before release.

Bottom line - did Pio show a 60" 768p model just because it fit the purpose of their demo (deeper blacks) better?

If so, tsk, tsk.
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post #655 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

Amirm here on AVS sez the Pio CES 60" model they demoed was 768p. I was really surprised to hear that, given that the model was a 60-incher.

Anybody that was there should be able to confirm.

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post #656 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I haven't figured that part out.

Where is and what are the hours for your showroom location? I may want to drive up/down/over to purchase one of your dust-collecting floor models.











umm. I'm serious. I'm a slut for a bargain. Central-USA located, by any chance?

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post #657 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Name one un-controlled demo at CES or any trade show. Who ever evaluates "ultimate performance" at a trade show? Thats like evaluating ultimate performance a BB.


My point exactly!Uh... isn't that what I said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Pioneer has committed to release these new panels no later than September 22nd. Why you have not seen it is a mystery to me as it's even on their website.


LOL...come on now,no later than the last day of summer?In fact the press release is not anywhere near as specific as to name dates and far from a commitment.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...277724,00.html

And this report from the closed door demo is even less clear.

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ces2007/0106pioneer/
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post #658 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 11:35 AM
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The improved blacks will only be on the 60"?!?! say it aint so ! . 50" is more then enough for me I really hope they have it on the 50" to.


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post #659 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Where is and what are the hours for your showroom location? I may want to drive up/down/over to purchase one of your dust-collecting floor models.

umm. I'm serious. I'm a slut for a bargain. Central-USA located, by any chance?

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post #660 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

True enough, but making deep blacks is more difficult on a 1080p model vis-a-vis any lower-rez model.

Amirm here on AVS sez the Pio CES 60" model they demoed was 768p. I was really surprised to hear that, given that the model was a 60-incher.

If the model shown was 768p it is pretty much guaranteed that the 1080p model using this "revolutionary" technology will have grayer blacks.

Unless they further tweak the tech before release.

Bottom line - did Pio show a 60" 768p model just because it fit the purpose of their demo (deeper blacks) better?

If so, tsk, tsk.

Amirm was misinformed on what display was being shown. Everyone else who has seen it were quoted as saying it was a 1080p model.
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