8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Didn't work well last year.

haha thanks that's what I was wondering. I'll just go ahead and get the one I want.

I learned from digital cameras that if you keep waiting around for the next best thing you'll never actually buy anything and enjoy it.
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post #722 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 06:41 PM
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Well.....here is a hint that the 2007 1080p Panasonic's black levels are only half as good as the standard models along with only 3072 gradation levels.
Aw.....
VReal2/Pro looks interesting though...

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/v...res/index.html

(Look under contrast ratio on the menus)

Edit: Clarification.

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post #723 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 08:42 PM
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OK ... over the weekend (and MLK Day) I've read half the pages on this thread.

While I realize this is a videophile board, all of this Who Has The Better Black Level stuff reminds me of arguing music with my musician friends. I'll hear a song I like and they'll say "Ooh, how can you like that crap? It's obvious the guy used the presets in his ACME Deutronium Deep Space Demodulator synth! How uncreative!" Well, I'll tell you buddy, I don't care about synths or presets - I just care about what comes out of speakers.

Similarly, I don't care about black levels, beyond a certain point. I do care about PQ and what looks natural and most Hi-Def/realistic to me.

I have a 3-year-old 34" Sony KV-34XBR910 CRT and I think the PQ is utterly fantastic. And with an average-sized living room, though it's a touch small nowadays it doesn't really bother me that much. The comments made about CRTs in the last few pages have been really annoying. I can "tell the difference" with HD sources at 6 feet with no problem - I believe my own eyes, I don't care about "credibility" here. Since the set does the analog equivalent to roughly 1400x900-odd pixels, I can view things like the BBC HD "Planet Earth" TV series (making the rounds in 1440x1080p DivX 6 HD AVIs) and they look utterly spectacular.

That said, my next upgrade is a Plasma and I'm keen to know more about the new Pioneer models beyond the Panasonic/Pioneer black level pissing contest. Again, I believe my own eyes - I went to a Magnolia/Best Buy (and, almost to a TV, all the LCDs I saw there were absolutely hideous) and saw the Panny 65" vs. the Pioneer PRO-FHD1, and while the Panny 65" was a beautiful panel to me the Pioneer was "better" - a totally subjective, you can't change my opinion on it type of evaluation. I saw plenty of reasonably looking blacks in the PRO-FHD1 with the Pioneer Blu-ray player and their Pioneer demo Blu-ray disc. Sure, that was under optimized conditions (heck, even the room lighting was incandescent and low-lux) but ultimately I buy a TV based on what looks best to me and not based on specs.

I'm still waiting to hear about whether the technology demo'ed at CES will become the successor to the PRO-FHD1 before the end of this year - and I can't even get that simple bit of thread-relevant information here.

We now return you to our regularly-scheduled black levels p*nis size comparison, already in progress.
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post #724 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 09:34 PM
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Thats a bit harsh I must say. I'd not care one lick about black levels except for this fact: shadow detail needs good blacks, good blacks give good shadow detail. Its a vicious cycle. I'm a shadow detail fiend. So I have to also be a black level fiend, although I'm not looking at blacks, but shadow detail. I wouldn't be able to have 100% of details unless you can get black enough. Black is perception. How black something looks can only be seen if you have a reference, but without really really black blacks, you can never have 100% shadow detail. If details in the shadows aren't important, you could have so much more on a DVD, maybe even to the point you wouldn't even need HD-DVD nor Blu-ray to have 1080p24 video! Just cut half of the information by only having half the range storing those pixels! Why even have that information stored if you can't see it on a tv with horrible blacks and shadow detail? I'm paying for those extra bits of information, I better damn well be able to see them too!
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post #725 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 09:58 PM
 
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Sorry, but anyone who says black levels aren't important has never had to suffer through a dark movie in a blacked out room on a set with less than stellar black levels. When you're sitting in a dark room and the TV's surrounded by complete black and then you see the glowing of the screen's black in comparison to the room's true black it's incredibly distracting. Watching some TVs at a store won't give you a good black level comparison, and CRTs have great blacks anyway so of course you don't mind a lack of black. I never once considered black levels important or even a factor until i got my first flat panel and realized just how horrible they can be. We're not a bunch of bored people with nothing else to do except compare black levels. It really is a downside of every flat panel, and the company that can bring true blacks to the market will be able to charge just about any price they want because everyone appreciates a nice inky black.
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post #726 of 5892 Old 01-16-2007, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post

OK ... over the weekend (and MLK Day) I've read half the pages on this thread.

While I realize this is a videophile board, all of this Who Has The Better Black Level stuff reminds me of arguing music with my musician friends. I'll hear a song I like and they'll say "Ooh, how can you like that crap? It's obvious the guy used the presets in his ACME Deutronium Deep Space Demodulator synth! How uncreative!" Well, I'll tell you buddy, I don't care about synths or presets - I just care about what comes out of speakers.

Similarly, I don't care about black levels, beyond a certain point. I do care about PQ and what looks natural and most Hi-Def/realistic to me.

I have a 3-year-old 34" Sony KV-34XBR910 CRT and I think the PQ is utterly fantastic. And with an average-sized living room, though it's a touch small nowadays it doesn't really bother me that much. The comments made about CRTs in the last few pages have been really annoying. I can "tell the difference" with HD sources at 6 feet with no problem - I believe my own eyes, I don't care about "credibility" here. Since the set does the analog equivalent to roughly 1400x900-odd pixels, I can view things like the BBC HD "Planet Earth" TV series (making the rounds in 1440x1080p DivX 6 HD AVIs) and they look utterly spectacular.

That said, my next upgrade is a Plasma and I'm keen to know more about the new Pioneer models beyond the Panasonic/Pioneer black level pissing contest. Again, I believe my own eyes - I went to a Magnolia/Best Buy (and, almost to a TV, all the LCDs I saw there were absolutely hideous) and saw the Panny 65" vs. the Pioneer PRO-FHD1, and while the Panny 65" was a beautiful panel to me the Pioneer was "better" - a totally subjective, you can't change my opinion on it type of evaluation. I saw plenty of reasonably looking blacks in the PRO-FHD1 with the Pioneer Blu-ray player and their Pioneer demo Blu-ray disc. Sure, that was under optimized conditions (heck, even the room lighting was incandescent and low-lux) but ultimately I buy a TV based on what looks best to me and not based on specs.

I'm still waiting to hear about whether the technology demo'ed at CES will become the successor to the PRO-FHD1 before the end of this year - and I can't even get that simple bit of thread-relevant information here.

We now return you to our regularly-scheduled black levels p*nis size comparison, already in progress.

The all high and mighty. This board is for reference, and while I do believe all of us have egos in some form or another, and some of us do have some sort of bias towards our own gear, it isn't as simple and knuckleheaded as you paint it out to be.

Black level (expletive) contest? Please, under all that arguing there is good things to be brought out. The fact there is a debate on black levels is great for the new comer. It's not as simple as comparing crappy bands. This arguement at least compells a reason for buyers to go see for themselves and decide.

But you did strike an important point and that was 'judging with eyes'. That takes all the BS arguements and turns them into a reference of help for those looking to buy some nice TVs.

Black levels are very important to viewing material. Some say it's so important that even the best digital displays are unacceptable. Alot of us feel that the best digital displays get a convincing enough black to hold contrast and shadow detail. That 'certain point' has not been reached for alot of people.

I'm excited for the blacker blacks. And if it's good enough, I wouldn't mind upgrading. For movie watching blacker blacks are just the ticket to home theater perfection.

Also your looking "HD" comments fall hollow. More so than the resolution of your source, HD sources do add a color depth to the video. A good DVD transfer holds up well on a CRT... regardless of resoultion.

Try comparing a hi-quality DVD (King Kong or The Omen) to an HDTV feed and then say the same thing. The HD feed might look great, and amazing, it's just that instead of letting the extra detail envelop you, like a big plasma... you have to squint for the details on something that small. The really hi-quality DVD will look almost as good... and from a far but reasonable distance, looks indistinguishable if calibrated properly.

Mostly all flat panels 42 and up are much more detailed than a 34 inch CRT.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #727 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You mean CRT absolute black levels and dynamic contrast right? Cause even LCDs have beaten CRT in all other PQ aspects.

You're forgetting motion display, which is very important to me.
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post #728 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

That would apply to the PF series aka (1080p) commerical models....late November/December

Do you expect these to compete with Pioneer's offering? Or do you expect we need to wait until 2008 models until Panasonic has a comparable offering? Thanks!
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post #729 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

I believe D-Nice says this to be true as well. Apparently because of the crystal emmisive layer, the 60 series has the best blacks... then 50... then 42.

How much of a difference in blacks I do wonder. But apparently it is true.

With the 60 series, you mean the PDP-4360HD, right?
Do you mean that the 60 series has better blacks than the 70 series

Pioneer stated here that there is an improvement in contrast ratio of 10% over the previous generation.
http://pioneer.jp/press/release164.html
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post #730 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 04:06 AM
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Will these new plasmas suffer from burn-in??
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post #731 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by flight78 View Post

Will these new plasmas suffer from burn-in??

Probably not, but its too early to know anything like this.

In my opinion, they're enough changes over the current models, that I would think it risky to just assume that there won't be.

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post #732 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

The all high and mighty. This board is for reference, and while I do believe all of us have egos in some form or another, and some of us do have some sort of bias towards our own gear, it isn't as simple and knuckleheaded as you paint it out to be.

Black level (expletive) contest? Please, under all that arguing there is good things to be brought out. The fact there is a debate on black levels is great for the new comer. It's not as simple as comparing crappy bands. This arguement at least compells a reason for buyers to go see for themselves and decide.

But you did strike an important point and that was 'judging with eyes'. That takes all the BS arguments and turns them into a reference of help for those looking to buy some nice TVs.

Black levels are very important to viewing material. Some say it's so important that even the best digital displays are unacceptable. Alot of us feel that the best digital displays get a convincing enough black to hold contrast and shadow detail. That 'certain point' has not been reached for alot of people.

I'm excited for the blacker blacks. And if it's good enough, I wouldn't mind upgrading. For movie watching blacker blacks are just the ticket to home theater perfection.

I'm not saying that black levels aren't important. In fact, I was nearly going to pull the trigger on the PRO-FHD1 when I saw the news about the forthcoming Pio's from CES. I do think they're important.

The trouble I have with this thread is that it seemed like it was the only thing that mattered in these 8th generation panels. That just seems silly to me, and is only one part of the picture when it comes to evaluating a display. All I'm trying to say is that specs obviously count, but they're not the whole story. As I said a long time ago in the now-closed PRO-FHD1 thread, when I went to Best Buy/Magnolia I fully expected to be blown away by the 65" Panasonic and instead walked out being blown away by the 50" Pioneer PRO-FHD1 instead. That was a "with my own eyes" test. Obviously YMMV.

As I stated earlier I'm really looking forward to seeing a PRO-FHD1 successor with this new 80% lower black levels technology, but despite there being several posters in this thread who saw the new panels at CES, I've yet to see any concrete information about whether or not what they saw was, indeed, the PRO-FHD1's successor or a successor to a "regular" line that just happens to now be a 60" panel that's 1080p. And I found that frustrating. That's all.

The anti-CRT comments struck a nerve because the KV-34XBR910 (and its successor model, the KD-34XBR960) have gotten nothing but rave reviews from what I've seen, and I really do think the PQ is tremendous. Having seen the 50" Pioneer plasma I will not argue that you can see more detail in those larger displays - obviously they're newer and more advanced technologically than my 3-year-old CRT. I'm not trying to be "all high and mighty" here. All I'm saying is that the PQ and the black levels in my CRT look pretty damn good to me, and I've checked out a lot of displays in stores to compare against. To me it sets a pretty high bar for any ideas I have about upgrading to something larger - that's why I ended up here, following the PRO-FHD1 and now this new next-generation thread.
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post #733 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 05:53 AM
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Riot Nrrrd

What it sounds like is you are torn between buying the FHD1 now or waiting on the successor model if it incorporates the black level changes Pio demonstrated. Since you were very happy with what your eyes told you and the current price seems to be in your range it sounds like you should go ahead and buy the current product. Then, if the successor product is more to your liking either sell the FHD1 or move it to another room. Compared to your CRT, you will gain perfect geometry, bigger size, all the 1080 resolution, etc. and you will notice all these improvements. You may give up some smoothness in some motion areas in some parts of a scene and, depending on how your current set is calibrated and your viewing environment, some amount of contrast which may or may not matter to you. On the other hand, if black level is really important to you and Pio can keep all the other variables at least at current levels (or improve them), and you want to hear/see reviews/see the product, etc., then wait another six to eight months and either buy the new set or pick up the old product (or repeat this decision cycle for n more years).
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post #734 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 08:14 AM
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Sorry, but I couldn't resist posting this excerpt.

It turns out that Gladiator director Ridley Scott is a big fan of plasma televisions. Scott went so far as to say that watching one of his films on a 65-inch Panasonic plasma was "breathtaking" and pointed out that as a filmmaker "deep blacks are essential and in my experience no technology captures those attributes as well as plasma". So that's that, then. Ridley wants you to buy a plasma TV and if you don't, you'll be reducing the quality of his art. -IM

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/televisions/...9286928,00.htm

I'm not trying to start a debate about CRT vs Plasma etc. or whether or not Ridley Scott is a videophile.

I just thought the above quote was amusing.

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post #735 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

.

Why do they ignore this?? This is what I have been saying all along. Man when are you guys going to listen to me. That quote is a bomshell.

Get the idea of this set be reasonbly priced out your minds.

btw, this might be an improved plasma but its still not SED. We have heard from Rogo and we have heard from this so-called journalist but the jury is still out.

SED never received any negative views.

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post #736 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:03 AM
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"...no technology captures those attributes as well as plasma"

We plasma guys already knew that.

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In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
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post #737 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:08 AM
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So with a 5000:1 contrast ratio on the new 1080p Panasonics, it does sound like Pioneer will be able to beat them (black level) since they are basically promising at least 768p Panasonic black levels.
What about the non super plasma versions? What are they promising for those standard models? I don't recall seeing any info yet.

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post #738 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:14 AM
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Amirm says Pioneer was showing a 60" 768 panel at the new 8G Pioneer demo and he is right...


That panel was the PDP 6070 HD......which was right beside the prototype 60-inch 1080p 8G panel
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post #739 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

So with a 5000:1 contrast ratio on the new 1080p Panasonics, it does sound like Pioneer will be able to beat them (black level) since they are basically promising at least 768p Panasonic black levels.
What about the non super plasma versions? What are they promising for those standard models? I don't recall seeing any info yet.

Don't get hung up on specs like contrast ratio. There's no standard for testing methods so it's just an arbitrary number and not relative to other manufacturers numbers and well beyond what the human eye can perceive anyway.
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post #740 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fico99 View Post

With the 60 series, you mean the PDP-4360HD, right?
Do you mean that the 60 series has better blacks than the 70 series

Pioneer stated here that there is an improvement in contrast ratio of 10% over the previous generation.
http://pioneer.jp/press/release164.html

He used the word "series" by mistake, as he was referring to the 60" size, in reference to the current Pioneer 7th gen consumer panel models, i.e., "the 60" panel has the best blacks, followed by the 50" model, then the 42" model".

I'm not sure if this black level variation from size to size (assuming for a moment that this is indeed true) also applies to the varying sizes of Pioneers previous generation models.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Like words being cut-off before they've had a chance to finish, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #741 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdog03 View Post

Don't get hung up on specs like contrast ratio. There's no standard for testing methods so it's just an arbitrary number and not relative to other manufacturers numbers and well beyond what the human eye can perceive anyway.

Well.....I wouldn't say to be hung up on them but they are important.
You can verify black levels with your eyes and as seen in the 1080p plasma's that are out already, they do reflect their black levels in normal viewing.
I don't know why you would think black levels can't be percieved by the human eye.

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post #742 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 09:56 AM
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It's interesting to me the way things get compared to one another. For example, whether it be in this forum or pro reviews elsewhere on the net, you commonly see people raving about the 6th or 7th gen Pioneer plasmas, describing them as "spectacular", "absolutely stunning picture quality", "great blacks", "cannot imagine how it could get any better", ad infinitum.

Then we get to a thread like this with media reports, as well as "ordinary" people who have seen the new Pioneer plasma CES demo, reporting back that the new tech "blew away" or was "much much better" than the current Pio panel used against it in comparison.

So I ask you this {borderline rhetorical, but chime in if you would like}.. how does one improve upon and improve upon by a LARGE margin, what was already "spectacular" or "stunning picture quality"? Or to put it another way.. if the 7th gen panels are given an average cummulative rating (from collective user and pro reviews) of "8.5 on a scale of 10" and the demo 8th gen panel is given a "10 out of a 10", how can such over-arching grandiose praise be heaped upon one over the other? Either the previous generations praise was overwrought, or the people who observed the demo (with the possible exception of Rogo) are insanely over-praising the new panel quality.





This both amuses and confuses me, not only in the context of this discussion, but in the discussion of other panels and even other technology as well, whether it be audio or video related. Speakers come immediately to mind, as in "these $500 speakers sound INSANELY GOOD!", then some months/years later he comes back to report "oh, I upgraded to the next speaker model and it KILLS the other ones!!".

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Like words being cut-off before they've had a chance to finish, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #743 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

It's interesting to me the way things get compared to one another. For example, whether it be in this forum or pro reviews elsewhere on the net, you commonly see people raving about the 6th or 7th gen Pioneer plasmas, describing them as "spectacular", "absolutely stunning picture quality", "great blacks", "cannot imagine how it could get any better", ad infinitum.

Then we get to a thread like this with media reports, as well as "ordinary" people who have seen the new Pioneer plasma CES demo, reporting back that the new tech "blew away" or was "much much better" than the current Pio panel used against it in comparison.

So I ask you this {borderline rhetorical, but chime in if you would like}.. how does one improve upon and improve upon by a LARGE margin, what was already "spectacular" or "stunning picture quality"? Or to put it another way.. if the 7th gen panels are given an average cummulative rating (from collective user and pro reviews) of "8.5 on a scale of 10" and the demo 8th gen panel is given a "10 out of a 10", how can such over-arching grandiose praise be heaped upon one over the other? Either the previous generations praise was overwrought, or the people who observed the demo (with the possible exception of Rogo) are insanely over-praising the new panel quality.





This both amuses and confuses me, not only in the context of this discussion, but in the discussion of other panels and even other technology as well, whether it be audio or video related. Speakers come immediately to mind, as in "these $500 speakers sound INSANELY GOOD!", then some months/years later he comes back to report "oh, I upgraded to the next speaker model and it KILLS the other ones!!".

Recall Hans Christen Anderson's tale about the King's new clothes. Most people will see what they are told they will see, and seldom observe the naked truth.

Pioneer told people what they were about to see, and of course they then said that they saw it. An interesting Pioneer business report, was all but ignored, recently. While they were strutting their new Plasma claims at CES, they, almost unnoticed, revealed that they had fallen far short of their 2006 Plasma sales goals. So, if you wish to sell your product at a premium over other brands, you better be able to claim that it is vastly superior to the competition. Going by their 2006 sales disappointing results, so poor that Pioneer has even stated that they are looking at going the third party components route in order to become more cost effective.

So, if you did not wow the buyers in 2006 and you want to call yourself elite, you better come up with a technical leap forward, to brag about. In Oct 2006 they were aiming for 2008 introduction of the new panel. Perhaps the disappointing 2006 sales results are what made them recently decide to bring it to market later this year. Let us see how their new design actually performs once early adopters put it through it's paces. It does seem a little dubious that they just happened, within just one year, to weave a magical new Plasma suit.
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post #744 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 10:45 AM
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Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED)


Is that related to a Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie ???.....
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post #745 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 10:45 AM
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Recall Hans Christen Anderson's tale about the King's new clothes. Most people will see what they are told they will see, and seldom observe the naked truth.

Yes, but if I remember that story correctly, it was only the KING who was deceived and not the kingdom, hence the humor.

Larry

I thought we were cool de la?
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post #746 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 11:00 AM
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Yes, but if I remember that story correctly, it was only the KING who was deceived and not the kingdom, hence the humor.

All went along with it, herd mentality, except the one boy who cried out that the king was naked. Point is, how many who are told what they will witness actually voice their doubts. Throngs of people are constantly seeing images of Jesus or Mary on Tacos Shells, urine stains on underpasses, or glass reflections. Yet, none ask to have those images compared to the Holy Family Pictures Album, Portrait Studies, Kodak moments, originals.
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post #747 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 11:10 AM
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All went along with it, herd mentality, except the one boy who cried out that the king was naked. Point is, how many who are told what they will witness actually voice their doubts. Throngs of people are constantly seeing images of Jesus or Mary on Tacos Shells, urine stains on underpasses, or glass reflections. Yet, none ask to have those images compared to the Holy Family Pictures Album, Portrait Studies, Kodak moments, originals.

LOL Oh yeah, now I remember. You are correct.
Gee, a moment ago, my closet looked sooo full, now it's so empty.

Larry

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post #748 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 11:13 AM
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I can see Hans Christian Anderson mocking 'political correctness' very easily.

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
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post #749 of 5892 Old 01-17-2007, 11:39 AM
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So here I was, just about set to purchase my very first plasma, upgrading my ancient non-HD capable CRT, after a looong internal debate, finally deciding upon the 50" size over the 42", and after much research, knowing exactly which model I wanted (Pioneer 507cmx commercial panel with KeyDigital Card). Had I never been to this forum, I likely would have been pleased as punch with everything about it, including it's black levels, for a very long time to come. But because I DO spend time here, I've picked up other people's arcane obsessions and made them my own. bastards. each and every one of you. except the ones who aren't.

Therefore, without any concrete clarity (clarity in concrete? yikes.. send in the adjective patrol) about new model prices, timetables and picture enhancements, made all the more acute with the looming football divisional finals, Super Bowl and new episodic batches of hd tv content coming shortly (Lost, Prison Break, Heroes, et all.)...

I'M BAILING!!!! I'm going to go for an out-of-left-field choice! I'm gonna pick up a decent 32" under $700 cheap LCD this week, use it for 3 months all the way up to 2 years if necessary, then see where we are then. baby steps. I can't miss out on any more HD content.. I'm going caraaazy!!! DAMN YOU PIONEER AND YOUR CES TARTED UP TEASING PLASMA TECHNOLOGY!!!!



















ps: thanks for nothing, d-nice, you who contributed to the teasing tizzy! (a tale not told by an idiot, but still signifying nothing!**)




**for greenland, because I must counter his every English literary reference

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Like words being cut-off before they've had a chance to finish, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post without comment, please check your zipper.
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So here I was, just about set to purchase my very first plasma, upgrading my ancient non-HD capable CRT, after a looong internal debate, finally deciding upon the 50" size over the 42", and after much research, knowing exactly which model I wanted (Pioneer 507cmx commercial panel with KeyDigital Card). Had I never been to this forum, I likely would have been pleased as punch with everything about it, including it's black levels, for a very long time to come. But because I DO spend time here, I've picked up other people's arcane obsessions and made them my own. bastards. each and every one of you. except the ones who aren't.

Therefore, without any concrete clarity (clarity in concrete? yikes.. send in the adjective patrol) about new model prices, timetables and picture enhancements, made all the more acute with the looming football divisional finals, Super Bowl and new episodic batches of hd tv content coming shortly (Lost, Prison Break, Heroes, et all.)...

I'M BAILING!!!! I'm going to go for an out-of-left-field choice! I'm gonna pick up a decent 32" under $700 cheap LCD this week, use it for 3 months all the way up to 2 years if necessary, then see where we are then. baby steps. I can't miss out on any more HD content.. I'm going caraaazy!!! DAMN YOU PIONEER AND YOUR CES TARTED UP TEASING PLASMA TECHNOLOGY!!!!



















ps: thanks for nothing, d-nice, you who contributed to the teasing tizzy! (a tale not told by an idiot, but still signifying nothing!**)




**for greenland, because I must counter his every English literary reference

Sorry, you have got it wrong. Hans was a fine Broth of a Danish lad.

You realize, that by purchasing an LCD, the Plasmanic Clergy will move to quickly excommunicate you.

Since you are looking at spending around $700.00 for a 32inch screen, why not try and negotiate a bargin for close to that price, and purchase a Sony 34xbr CRT. You will have a slightly larger picture, will have HD, and CRT black levels. I know, I know, It ain't heavy, it's a mother.
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