8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

It's unfortunate that it will be so exspensive to just come close to what Quality CRT tubes have been able to do for decades. I am not amazed that they are almost there, I am amazed it is taking so long.

Contrast question: since there is no agreed on standard way of measuring the dynamic/Static contrast specs we see, how can anyone take any of them too serious.
Even on my CRT I have seen 5000 for static ,40000 for dynamic and also unlimited, now which one is true.
The blacks are outmnof this world black hole black

What really gets me is SED and now Pioneer claim to achieve crt like contrast ratio and shawdow detail, viewing angle and response time yet in all of these close door sessions, there is no quality CRT HDTV or broadcast monitor to be found.

Is it just me or:

Wouldnt the case be made all the more dramatic if they had a ISF calibrated CRT or $40000 broadcast monitor going against thier product and either losing or being equal.


Well, for the simple fact that most home theater people aren't comparing their displays to CRTs anymore - let alone studio quality CRTs. People who need that level of quality aren't shopping at the same places you and I are. They're likely using studio quality CRTs - or something like the Brightside LCD panels for applications that require the utmost quality.
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post #92 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

I think it should be demoed against a quality hdtv CRT or broadcast monitor first, since that is what they are trying to equal and beat.

If they do well there then SED will have to demo against it.
I think the new LED LCDS are still trying to catch plasma in contrast, black level and shadow detail, While Plasma and SED are trying to catch quality CRTS, which have all but ceased production.
Everything is a moving target, steadily improving ecept CRT which is now the only stationary target.

Agreed, but it's not as if CRT has nothing that it can work on. I've seen plenty of problems with that tech, and unless you have a perfect sample, it can be annoying.

Out of all the techs, even the best Brands like Sony and Toshiba, I see a "consistent" inconsistency in production in terms of PQ. LCD being right up there. Geometry for one is a problem. Focus is the other.

In fact I saw this nasty nasty nasty white... glaring area in the top left corner of my friends Toshiba HD CRT when really dark scenes appeared.

Hardly perfect.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #93 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jrbd90 View Post

It wouldn't be fair unless there was a CRT even remotely close in size to a 60" PDP.

Sure it would since they claim they can.
Otherwise why claim it.
They didnt claim their size was bigger, I think the biggest CRT was 40", while Plasma is like 103" recently.
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post #94 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Agreed, but it's not as if CRT has nothing that it can work on. I've seen plenty of problems with that tech, and unless you have a perfect sample, it can be annoying.

Out of all the techs, even the best Brands like Sony and Toshiba, I see a "consistent" inconsistency in production in terms of PQ. LCD being right up there. Geometry for one is a problem. Focus is the other.

In fact I saw this nasty nasty nasty white... glaring area in the top left corner of my friends Toshiba HD CRT when really dark scenes appeared.

Hardly perfect.

Trust me I know it's not perfect by a long shot!
I was just talking black levels shawdow detail contrast ratios, CRT strengths. But I must agree you are correct No Display tech is perfect or will ever be.They all have "MAJOR Weakesees" specific to thier display type and major advantages.
I am hoping SED-Plasma- Or LCD finally exceeds CRTS strengths while doing away with it's many flaws and also since no research dollars are going into less profitable CRTS and technology should never be stagnate.


I am well aware of all the weaknesses. Small profit, heavy and deep, although those could be viewed as plused.
Geometry is the biggie, and although not native with resolution-a plus- at high resolution it is interlaced a minus(still looks great however), unless it is a progressive multiscan computer monitor took a ISF tech to get mine almost "perfect" in as much as straight lines along the edges go.

Later this year I would love to have a flat panel with similar PQ 720P or 1080P, 34"-60" Size and Resolution is not that important to me, but "PQ" with xbox360/HDDVD/SD/SDDVD and next christmas PS3/Blueray is.
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post #95 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UUronl View Post

Well, for the simple fact that most home theater people aren't comparing their displays to CRTs anymore - let alone studio quality CRTs. People who need that level of quality aren't shopping at the same places you and I are. They're likely using studio quality CRTs - or something like the Brightside LCD panels for applications that require the utmost quality.

Well said and true.
There are some of us though with CRT's who are just waiting for a flat panel with "close to" CRT black levels, contrast, color, etc. to be available from $3000-$5000. We will buy once the independan/users review are in.
I am once such nerd and Pioneer has me excited with this, since SED is starting to seem like vaporware.
I am wonder how the image retention, burn in prevention technologies are or are not improving on Plasmas, this would be just as Huge to me as I like watching movies at their natural aspect ratio, and sometimes I game for hours.
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post #96 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 09:23 AM
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in 10 years from now, we may have quality that can match a CRT display.

how bizarre the world is !
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post #97 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

Well said and true.
There are some of us though with CRT's who are just waiting for a flat panel with "close to" CRT black levels, contrast, color, etc. to be available from $3000-$5000. We will buy once the independan/users review are in.
I am once such nerd and Pioneer has me excited with this, since SED is starting to seem like vaporware.
I am wonder how the image retention, burn in prevention technologies are or are not improving on Plasmas, this would be just as Huge to me as I like watching movies at their natural aspect ratio, and sometimes I game for hours.

Burn-in... very unlikely.

Image Retention happens sparingly.

Getting better every year too,

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #98 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 09:45 AM
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So has anyone heard anything about what screen sizes will be available? (Or did I miss that in the press release?)
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post #99 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 10:27 AM
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Good points Johnnybrules:
I didnt mean to put burn in in my post, I guess that show how prevalent the phrase Plasma burns in is. I posted it without even thinking cuz it has been repeated so much it's in the subconcious.
Image retention for extented game plae and letter box movies were all I meant to say.

Actually although as far off as SED in the future Sony is showing 27" OLED displays with 1.000.000:1 contrast ratio and 1080P, only a 27", even smaller than my set.
Interesting, that almost matches a crt unlimited contrast ratio.
http://www.engadget.com/photos/sonys...hdtv-1/128897/
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post #100 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 10:33 AM
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a friend of mine at Pioneer told me that Pioneer is totally getting out of the low-medium end electronics - all Pioneer will be high end only and priced accordingly - so - be prepared to pay a hefty price for these new Plasmas - I told my friend that i wanted 2 of these new ones - a 50" (for the bedroom) and a 60" (for the family room) - he said delivery would be in Aug. Pricing unknown at this time. Also - he told me that the only deals from Pioneer in the future will be on refurbished electronics - but - he said - they are rebuilt to brand new standards.
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post #101 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 12:34 PM
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ikeb, I'm having a difficult time trying to reconcile your comments about Pioneer, and the direction in which they are heading. Here are excerpts from your previous two related comments (from the other thread you started last week):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

A friend of mine at one of the major mfgs of plasmas {which we now know to be Pioneer} told me last weekend to not buy a plasma until this coming summer.


and...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

hey - i'm just repeating what i was told by a senior vp of "P". He also told me that the models are all1080P and have "leap frog" technology that will put the compitition to shame. also told me that they were going to have a special promotion on the "old" plasmas. He also said that they, unfortunatley, expect plasma prices to fall dramatically by the end of 1007 with numerious new plants coming on line.



and now this today...



Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

a friend of mine at Pioneer told me that Pioneer is totally getting out of the low-medium end electronics - all Pioneer will be high end only and priced accordingly - so - be prepared to pay a hefty price for these new Plasmas - I told my friend that i wanted 2 of these new ones - a 50" (for the bedroom) and a 60" (for the family room) - he said delivery would be in Aug. Pricing unknown at this time. Also - he told me that the only deals from Pioneer in the future will be on refurbished electronics - but - he said - they are rebuilt to brand new standards.

Ok, so here is what I'm trying to figure out, and hopefully, you can provide some clarifications.

When you say Pioneer is getting out of low/medium electronics, and concentrating on high end only, why then would it be necessary to run special promotions to clear out existing current technology plasma stock? Why not just let them sell through, lowering prices only as much as absolutely necessary to get the existing stock cleared out?

Before your last post, I had gotten the impression from your prior two posts that you were saying that Pioneer wanted to get the old model stock cleared out ASAP because they've got the new wiz-bang models coming and they want to put a serious crimp in the sales of competing plasma brands, and also combating the ever-building LCD sales juggernaut. And by introducing their new plasma tech, they could maintain current price levels for their own product, while other plasma brands and LCD brands continue to duke it out in the current "marginal/incremental panel improvements & ever-plummeting pricing" market atmosphere.

If this were true, then I could understand them wanting to clear out existing stock sooner (or specifically, when their new product is ready to ship), so they can start benefiting from the higher profit margins this new plasma tech will allow them, for as long as they can, before the competition can match their quality and they again will have to participate in the downward-pricing/squeezed-profit cycle like everyone else (other than Fujitsu & Runco, of course, who apparently reside comfortably in Exclusivityville).

But.. if Pioneer will be strictly aiming for high end and don't intend to compete with LCD or other brand plasmas in the middle and low price territory where most of the sales are, then I ask again.. why would they want to implement heavy discount promotions for current product?

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #102 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:13 PM
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Same person claimed in July to have the inside scoop on where things stood on SED. An insider at Toshiba told him. Very Forrest Gump like.

Since this Pioneer is going to be released within a few months, it will not be all that long before we will get actual early adopter feedback. That will actually give us a more realistic appraisal of how it performs than any demonstration claims or comparisons to other display types.
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post #103 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:16 PM
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unknown!! - just repeating what my friend told me. He told me that they are going to run a special promo on their current plasmas to blow them off (when, I do not know)

he just said that pioneer is not going to get down and dirty because there is no money in it and premium products will bring premium prices. He said that chasing Panosonic pricing was a waste of time and money. He told me that a lot of other stuff - but its not for publication.
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post #104 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Same person claimed in July to have the inside scoop on where things stood on SED. An insider at Toshiba told him. Very Forrest Gump like.

Since this Pioneer is going to be released within a few months, it will not be all that long before we will get actual early adopter feedback. That will actually give us a more realistic appraisal of how it performs than any demonstration claims or comparisons to other display types.

Here's the post...
Quote:


ikeb
after talking to someone on the inside at Toshiba - i was told that they can make all the sed tvs they want - unfortunately its 1 at a time - the problem they are having is large scale production - they can't seem to get it right - so hang in there - they will have sed tvs. But, they still don't know when


Larry

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post #105 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

unknown!! - just repeating what my friend told me. He told me that they are going to run a special promo on their current plasmas to blow them off (when, I do not know)

he just said that pioneer is not going to get down and dirty because there is no money in it and premium products will bring premium prices. He said that chasing Panosonic pricing was a waste of time and money. He told me that a lot of other stuff - but its not for publication.

Looks like the promotion is correct. But the FHD1 and get a 5016 for free. Announced today by Pioneer.
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post #106 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:20 PM
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i will never post here again - you guys are unappreciative
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post #107 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

Good points Johnnybrules:
I didnt mean to put burn in in my post, I guess that show how prevalent the phrase Plasma burns in is. I posted it without even thinking cuz it has been repeated so much it's in the subconcious.
Image retention for extented game plae and letter box movies were all I meant to say.

Actually although as far off as SED in the future Sony is showing 27" OLED displays with 1.000.000:1 contrast ratio and 1080P, only a 27", even smaller than my set.
Interesting, that almost matches a crt unlimited contrast ratio.
http://www.engadget.com/photos/sonys...hdtv-1/128897/

Yep .

Contrast Ratio is a pointless statistic... especially if your TV set can get blackhole black.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #108 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

unknown!! - just repeating what my friend told me. He told me that they are going to run a special promo on their current plasmas to blow them off (when, I do not know)

he just said that pioneer is not going to get down and dirty because there is no money in it and premium products will bring premium prices. He said that chasing Panosonic pricing was a waste of time and money. He told me that a lot of other stuff - but its not for publication.

True. Here is the link to the promo

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...920404,00.html
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post #109 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:34 PM
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So, to those allegedly saw these new Pios... I am assuming they are not these super plasmas correct?

If only a certain few are getting glimpses "behind close doors", then... please...

We want pictures and impressions from the real deal!

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post #110 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekdo View Post

True. Here is the link to the promo

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...920404,00.html

Does anyone know if this promotion will be available in Canada? I hope what I am reading is not entirely true. Premium will be out of my price point.
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post #111 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

i will never post here again - you guys are unappreciative

ikeb, I'm sure everyone would agree that insider information is appreciated, but while you've introduced some intriguing info, ultimately, it's all been too vague and contradictory for anyone to make heads or tails from, let alone base future purchase planning upon. We really don't know you, we don't know who your friend is, we don't know if you've correctly interpreted and accurately regurgitated the statements he has made to you (not saying you are intentionally misrepresenting anything, but as we all know, human communication and memory isn't exactly 100% foolproof!)

Now, get this guy back on the phone, ask him some good follow-up questions, then come back here so that we may have the pleasure of berating you some more!

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #112 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

ikeb, I'm sure everyone would agree that insider information is appreciated...Now, get this guy back on the phone, ask him some good follow-up questions, then come back here

Agree.
And to paraphrase Greenland, ( or put words in his mouth)
Run Forrest Run!

Larry

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post #113 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 02:18 PM
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Oh, is this where we 'listen to his theories, mock them and then embrace our own'.
Oh..that was a House, M.D. line, sorry.

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
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post #114 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Yep .

Contrast Ratio is a pointless statistic... especially if your TV set can get blackhole black.

My new Panny 65" Pro 1080p is absolutely magnificient! Very good blacks..............in fact when I go near it with any great amount of black in the picture, I make sure I take my flashlight so I don't get lost......
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post #115 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 02:32 PM
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Hey, could somebody at CES check to see if Pioneer is sticking with 768p or going to 720p?

(I'm not hating on 768p, I have a 768p set and love it...I'm just curious)
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post #116 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

Agree.
And to paraphrase Greenland, ( or put words in his mouth)
Run Forrest Run!

"My Momma always said, anonymous insider sources were just like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get fed." I personally got that quote from someone very influential in Forrest's life.
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post #117 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 03:10 PM
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I thought I wouldn't have to get into why but, you can like the result and not how it gets it or the quality of that result. Sure CRT does show the shadows and has a superb shadow detail. It doesn't however have a great contrast ratio. A CRT never quite become pitch black, it's able to have a huge dynamic contrast ratio of over 30,0000:1 but a lousy 800:1 CR. CRT has a lousy on/off CR compared to LCD. You can give the LCD a checker pattern and then measure light output, which will beat the CRT hands down. But put in a really dark movie like a few dark scenes from Alien, you see nothing at all but blackness. All current plasmas even have that problem to some extent.

CRT is bad because:

1) It's fuzzy and soft, not quite as sharp
2) I get headaches from the refresh cycle, bad flicker!
3) convergence, no CRT is 100% perfect (plasma is 100% perfect)
4) banding issues
5) floating blacks, dc restoration issues
6) can't hang it on the wall
7) not cool, impressing the Jones's is very important!
8) You just don't get the "punch" of a plasma
9) Pixels bleed, if you set the brightness too high you never bloom on plasma
10) barrel distortion, which is why a CRT will overscan
11) can't get 1:1 1080p
12) size limited. Largest CRT HDTV is the 34" Sony. Way too small!

So I don't see what there is to like about CRT one bit. But there is everything to love about plasma, except less than stellar dynamic range and shadow detail compared to CRT. CRT is a dying technology, but until those two characteristics, which everyone touts to exude why "CRT IS THE BEST!", there will always be those people. So I wasn't being "contradictory" as you say. DC restoration is a HUGE issue with CRT. I don't like that when you get a brighter scene, the quality of the black changes, which is why it has such a high dynamic range, but black levels are not good at all!
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post #118 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 03:32 PM
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I have done near side by side comparisons of my older CRT's (a Fisher PC-9326 from 1988 and a Sony KV-27EXR20 from 1993) and my 4 month old Panasonic TH-42PX6U and I have found the picture to be much more satisfying on the CRT's (even though they are SD and much older). I agree that the larger screen has a certain amount of appeal and draw but I still find the black level issue almost interolerable on the plasma. I mean, yes, when there is a bunch of other bright material on screen the plasma can look good but when watching movies that have a lot of black it can be a very irritating and distracting issue, sometimes with the plasma I have to run the brightness up to +20 (with gamma set on dark) or +5 (with the gamma set to light) just to get all the material up over the precharge threshold, either way at that point the colors are so washed out compared to the CRT that it is sometimes hard to watch anything all the way through (unless I constantly change the brightness and contrast to fit the scene). I do understand that for larger screen sizes plasma is the best but in any situation where you do not need anything larger than 34" I would go with a CRT in a second.
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post #119 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lastxbr960 View Post

Wouldnt the case be made all the more dramatic if they had a ISF calibrated CRT or $40000 broadcast monitor going against thier product and either losing or being equal.

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ces2007/010907Panasonic/
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post #120 of 5892 Old 01-09-2007, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by soloist3 View Post

I have done near side by side comparisons of my older CRT's (a Fisher PC-9326 from 1988 and a Sony KV-27EXR20 from 1993) and my 4 month old Panasonic TH-42PX6U and I have found the picture to be much more satisfying on the CRT's (even though they are SD and much older). I agree that the larger screen has a certain amount of appeal and draw but I still find the black level issue almost interolerable on the plasma. I mean, yes, when there is a bunch of other bright material on screen the plasma can look good but when watching movies that have a lot of black it can be a very irritating and distracting issue, sometimes with the plasma I have to run the brightness up to +20 (with gamma set on dark) or +5 (with the gamma set to light) just to get all the material up over the precharge threshold, either way at that point the colors are so washed out compared to the CRT that it is sometimes hard to watch anything all the way through (unless I constantly change the brightness and contrast to fit the scene). I do understand that for larger screen sizes plasma is the best but in any situation where you do not need anything larger than 34" I would go with a CRT in a second.

I'm a black level fiend myself but...

Out of curiosity, have you been unable to sit through movies at theaters throughout your life, considering the poor black levels relative to CRT?
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