8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I would not call them "super" plasmas. But yes 8th gen, deep deep black in daytime (ambient light difuser) and at night.

Thanks.

Wow, that's really great. Pioneer keeps pushing the envelop in terms of being a hybrid display. Now with truly the best of both worlds in the blackness if this hype meets reality.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #182 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by soncomet View Post

What you meant to say is that you cannot see these issues on those two brands. Other people can though.

If a high speed camera has a hard time catching any lag, I would say it is not an issue within the normal paramaters of human vision.
People can see all kinds of weird things but this is not an issue with the tech at hand.

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post #183 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Pioneer and Panasonic do not have these issues.
It's either his source or his setup is as strange as his remarks about plasma.

My Panasonic has this issue and it's neither the setup nor the source. You can take my word for that. I'm not stupid.

FWIW, here's an image which I've made up in MsPaint. It shows quite exactly what my eyes are seeing:



I tried to photograph the artifact, but my digicam is not fast enough. I see the artifact especially clear if my eyes try to follow the movement of the font.
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post #184 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what my digicam shows. In real life it looks much more like the MsPaint picture in my previous post.

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post #185 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:56 PM
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Are you seeing this with PAL or NTSC sources?
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post #186 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Now, prices for Pioneer's 8th gen plasmas....
Don't look for their panels to be priced anywhere near what you will be able to purchase a Panasonic. Samsung, Vizo, Phillips, etc. plasma this summer. Pioneer clearly wants these new panel's price to equal the PQ they will have. If you want to get a feel on how much these panels will cost, think about the Sony XBR LCDs compared to their Samsung and Sharp counterparts. Much higher in price but the PQ says it all (well to some)..

This price analogy regarding the impending Pios, (Pio vs other plasmas relative to XBR Bravias vs.the Sharps etc.) is logical.

However, I think the overall scale will be lower than what some here are anticipating. I believe the crazy days of plasma sticker shock are fading fast.
This is all wishful thinking on my part (no insider info here). I base this on the way current prices are falling (across the board for all types of displays). Unless there is a new super size display, or a major visual (by all) increase in picture quality, that pleases the likes of even a wojtek- the prices will continue to deflate.

The 1080 P moniker is losing its premium price muscle.

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post #187 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Here's what my digicam shows. In real life it looks much more like the MsPaint picture in my previous post.


I do understand what you are saying and I am not saying that you don't see it.
I have seen many fonts moving at a lot of different speeds and if my display did that, I would see it.
I am not stupid either.

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post #188 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Are you seeing this with PAL or NTSC sources?

PAL. Haven't tested NTSC, as almost all my content is 50Hz.
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post #189 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:04 PM
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The main reason why Pioneer said this new tech is going to "cost more" is in direct relation to falling plasma prices. You will not be able to get this tech in a 1.3k 42" plasma, 2k 50" plasma, or 3k 58+ plasma.
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post #190 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Pioneer and Panasonic do not have these issues.
It's either his source or his setup is as strange as his remarks about plasma.


Don't be so fast. I have seen green phosphor lag on an Elite 50" in a local cigar bar I frequent. Saw it before I even knew there was such a thing, so I wasn't trying to see it, and I wasn't doing anything silly to make it visible.

I am extremely sensitive to DLP rainbows, and I believe whatever extra spatial and temporal acuity my eyes have also seems to make the phosphor lag visible.
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post #191 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by slb View Post

There's a difference between saying that one is not completely satisified with plasma and "plasma sucks, do not listen the the AVS plasma fanboys". FYI, I readily admit there's plenty room for improvement in plasma performance. Wojtek implies that he was somehow misled into purchasing an inferior display technology, although he doesn't really say what technology he believes is better, just that "plasma sucks". I'll I'm saying is that plasma is at least as good as (and IMHO, better than) any other digital display technology currently available. It isn't perfect, but it doesn't suck.

That's all I intend to say on this subject, as I don't wish to hijack this thread any further.

-Steve

slb: I was going to respond to wojtek's rant but your reply says it all.
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post #192 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

PAL. Haven't tested NTSC, as almost all my content is 50Hz.

Can you see it on static white on black text?
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post #193 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I do understand what you are saying and I am not saying that you don't see it.
I have seen many fonts moving at a lot of different speeds and if my display did that, I would see it.
I am not stupid either.

Well, so that makes you think it must be my setup? What part of my setup could result in such a strange effect? And why is it only visible in motion? If I step through the frames of the video, there's no such green trail visible. So it can't be the source. And the trails are bigger the faster the font moves. I'm seeing similar effects on all sources and I've had different external video processors in my setup. It was always visible.

What display do you have? Do you have a 8G Panasonic?
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post #194 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Can you see it on static white on black text?

With "static" you mean "no movement", I guess? No, it's only during movement. The green trail follows the movement and the faster the movement is the longer is the trail.
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post #195 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The main reason why Pioneer said this new tech is going to "cost more" is in direct relation to falling plasma prices. You will not be able to get this tech in a 1.3k 42" plasma, 2k 50" plasma, or 3k 58+ plasma.

If we're talking about the 60 in the 5 range (give or take) - then come this summer- I'm in.

Larry

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post #196 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Well, so that makes you think it must be my setup? What part of my setup could result in such a strange effect? And why is it only visible in motion? If I step through the frames of the video, there's no such green trail visible. So it can't be the source. And the trails are bigger the faster the font moves. I'm seeing similar effects on all sources and I've had different external video processors in my setup. It was always visible.

What display do you have? Do you have a 8G Panasonic?

It is a 50Px500u (8th Gen).
I guess I should have said NTSC in my statement.
What is the font source, btw? All fonts? TV..DvD?

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post #197 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Here's what my digicam shows. In real life it looks much more like the MsPaint picture in my previous post.


I do see this occasionally on my Panasonic 50" but it's usually only noticeable (to me) on fast motion in black & white. Sometimes fast moving b&W screen credits will have a trailing edge like you describe. I see it so seldom that it doesn't bother me but if you see it all the time I can understand why you're annoyed.
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post #198 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

With "static" you mean "no movement", I guess? No, it's only during movement. The green trail follows the movement and the faster the movement is the longer is the trail.

madshi,
I think you have many of us interested in what's happening.

Just to have our heads around this correctly. You are watching "PAL" content which is 50hz refresh rate on a Panasonic plasma. Is the Panasonic model you have intended for 50hz or is it a US model that's intended for 60 HZ with some kind of transformer to adjust voltage??????

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post #199 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:16 PM
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I forgot about this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Basically they're saying:

(1) They reduced the black level by lowering the middle idle illuminating level of "black" pixel cells. So no new tricks like Black Crystal emission layer, but straight lowering of the "keep alive" level by 80%.

The crystal emissive layer and dielectric layer are in the 8th gen plasmas. They work in tandem with the new tech and panel.
Quote:
(2) Pioneer was using a film filter instead of glass filter for 2 generations now. This has cut down second level reflections. Now they claim that they've a new filter which cuts down any ambient light but doesn't block the colors from the plasma.

They are still going to use a color filter. Just a much improved one.
Quote:
(3) They say they've developed a new video processing ASIC which includes things like MPEG noise reduction and that kind of stuff.

I'm waiting to see this in action. It's also suppose to fix the video over film problem the the previous processor had (scrolling text over film flagged content).
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post #200 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

What is the font source, btw? All fonts? TV..DvD?

The source is a test DVD used for calibrating and testing displays. There are multiple stress tests on it to judge how good a display is with motion display. E.g. there are videos for false contouring and motion smear etc...
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post #201 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

The real problem is that no "pundit" on these forums really cares about PQ. They can't possibly miss the crappy black levels, the phosphor lag, the false contouring. The bottom line is that the plasma pic (as it is today), sucks.

The "pundits" here are really shills for plasma. They have zero credibility in my view.

Don't hold back now Wojtek. Do you think you're being a wee bit harsh? Do you think that saying plasma PQ as it stands today "sucks" is a wee bit harsh? Do you think you may have just insulted the intelligence of every plasma owner on this forum?
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post #202 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

That depends on how deep your pockets are. The 6070 is relatively cheap right now. Again, final pricing has not been done on the 8th gen. However, they will not be cheaper than what you can currently get the 5070 for.

If you are a black-level fiend, absolutely. I have not seen their new processor in action yet, but if it's anything Pioneer is making it out to be, Fujitsu may not be able to tout "best plasma processing" anymore

I must say I'm psyched to see this display! It certainly sounds ground-breaking and exciting.
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post #203 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

With "static" you mean "no movement", I guess? No, it's only during movement. The green trail follows the movement and the faster the movement is the longer is the trail.

Definately sounds like it is caused by the refresh rate.
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post #204 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by slb View Post

Very true, and I think that most of the forum members that shelled out several thousand dollars for their displays (including the AVS plasma fanboys) believe that they selected the one that offered the best overall picture quality and features in their respective price ranges. You obviously feel that you made a serious mistake.

-Steve

Yeah, and here several years ago I traded my old Zenith 64" CRT RP HDTV with 9" guns for a 50" Fujitsu plasma. According to one guy here, I'm either blind or a 'shill' for the plasma industry! Yowser!
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post #205 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

madshi,
I think you have many of us interested in what's happening.

Just to have our heads around this correctly. You are watching "PAL" content which is 50hz refresh rate on a Panasonic plasma. Is the Panasonic model you have intended for 50hz or is it a US model that's intended for 60 HZ with some kind of transformer to adjust voltage??????

I'm living in Germany and have a German Panasonic 50PHD8, which should be totally identical to the US model, as far as I know. I'm watching a PAL (50Hz) test DVD through an iScan VP50 going into 5x BNC input blade of the plasma (1:1 pixel mapping). The 50PHD8 can do 48Hz, 50Hz and 60Hz natively without internal FRC.

Another test: I've told the VP50 to convert the 50Hz test video to 60Hz (59.94Hz). The motion is not smooth, anymore (because of FRC, obviously). But the problem is still the same. Green trails are still visible. So the problem can not be related to how the plasma handles 50Hz input.
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post #206 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I must say I'm psyched to see this display! It certainly sounds ground-breaking and exciting.

This is going to be a VERY expensive year for me. I'll be getting a both the 60 and 50" 1080p Pioneers, one 10th gen Panasonic, 2-3 BD players, 2 XA2 HD DVD players, new AV receiver with more HDMI ports, pretty much all BD and HD DVD releases. Hell I may even switch to D* if they actually get all the HD channels they claim are coming Q3 and Q4......as long as they lose the HD-Lite.
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post #207 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:27 PM
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madshi

What's your DVD player and does it also show up on other sources?

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post #208 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

This is going to be a VERY expensive year for me. I'll be getting a both the 60 and 50" 1080p Pioneers, one 10th gen Panasonic, 2-3 BD players, 2 XA2 HD DVD players, new AV receiver with more HDMI ports, pretty much all BD and HD DVD releases. Hell I may even switch to D* if they actually get all the HD channels they claim are coming Q3 and Q4......as long as they lose the HD-Lite.

You left out one of those 200lb subs.

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post #209 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:30 PM
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Your right. Really looking at the new SVS PC-Ultra
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post #210 of 5892 Old 01-10-2007, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I'm living in Germany and have a German Panasonic 50PHD8, which should be totally identical to the US model, as far as I know. I'm watching a PAL (50Hz) test DVD through an iScan VP50 going into 5x BNC input blade of the plasma (1:1 pixel mapping). The 50PHD8 can do 48Hz, 50Hz and 60Hz natively without internal FRC.

Another test: I've told the VP50 to convert the 50Hz test video to 60Hz (59.94Hz). The motion is not smooth, anymore (because of FRC, obviously). But the problem is still the same. Green trails are still visible. So the problem can not be related to how the plasma handles 50Hz input.

Started new thread for this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=784973

I would like to see where it goes without hijacking this thread any longer.

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