8G Pioneer plasmas - 80% lower black levels! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/07...p-lcd-and-sed/

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Pioneer just sent us info about new technology for its line of already well received plasmas that it says will keep plasma display technology ahead of LCDs and SED -- assuming the latter ever actually ships. By redesigning the panel, filter and circuitry, Pioneer has been able to "far exceed" black levels in its earlier plasmas and reduce minimum luminance levels by 80 percent.

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Originally expected to become available in 2008, Pioneer expects to put these PDPs on shelves in the US by summer, but we'll get a look at them later and let you know if it actually works.

*Update 2007-05-02*

http://www.minhembio.com/CSY/112574

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post #2 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 11:26 AM
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Sweet.

Our Plasmas are already obsolete. Hah!

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #3 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 11:29 AM
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Well this is certainly excellent news, 80% is substantially better. I sure hope that Panasonic has something good to display as well.
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post #4 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...277724,00.html

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Key characteristics of the new displays include:

* Black levels in the new display far exceed previous Pioneer plasmas, making dark scenes darker while maintaining clarity of detail. This is the result of reducing the minimum luminance level by 80 percent. The test equipment typically used to determine the variance between peak white and peak black does not have great enough range to measure Pioneer's new display so a contrast ratio specification is not yet determined.
* Rich colors in dark scenes are a second benefit of the lower luminance levels and deeper blacks. The new display reproduces colors with greater richness and accuracy even in dark scenes.
* Performance in bright rooms is significantly improved with a newly engineered filter that minimizes the effect of ambient light so the display is able to maintain deep black levels regardless of lighting conditions. Pioneer will demonstrate the display in both bright and dark lighting conditions to simulate a retail environment and the typical American living room. In both cases, black levels remain deep and colors are intense.

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post #5 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 12:48 PM
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Claiming to be better than SED - that is pretty bold! Can't wait to see it in real life.

Summer? What will happen to the sales of the XX7 series until then??

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post #6 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 12:51 PM
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I bet these are big $$$. Any word on price yet?
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post #7 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 01:08 PM
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I've been saying for some time that SED will be still-borne as a result of this development. Pioneer actually announced this some time ago and it's a shared patent with Panasonic. So look for Panasonic to do the same thing. This is of course fabulous news for plasma fans and will serve to widen the gap between plasma and LCD technology. Those that saw the Pioneer prototype said it was every bit as impressive as SED.

I think the big news is that it will be out by the summer! This is precisely why I've held off with the current crop of 1080p displays which, to my eyes, suffered in the area of black levels relative to their non-1080p counterparts. It's just great to see this issue is being addressed so soon!
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post #8 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I've been saying for some time that SED will be still-borne as a result of this development.

Yeah, you've said that for some time. That doesn't necessarily make it true, though.

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Those that saw the Pioneer prototype said it was every bit as impressive as SED.

In terms of black level, yes.

I'm still not convinced how well these new plasmas will handle motion. False contouring, green phosphor lag. Are those fully solved? We'll have to wait and see...

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I think the big news is that it will be out by the summer!

Agreed! That's the biggest news for me - together with the claim that shadow detail is supposed to be better than ever before. I was fearing that the new low black levels would go hand in hand with poor shadow detail. Pioneer claims the opposite of my fear. Let's hope that's true!
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post #9 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post

I bet these are big $$$. Any word on price yet?

Maybe not. I think LCD is the marketing darling right now and likely the real reason Pio is pushing up release of the new plasma tech.

Ken
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post #10 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 01:49 PM
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Another milestone in PDP technology advancement. In the ongoing Panny vs Pioneer debate this is good news for Pio fans as they already have perhaps the best color PQ, so with the much improved blacks overall PQ bar has reached a new height. I am glad I held off on my 1080p PDP purchase. Resolution1080p + blacks + color = potential homerun by Pioneer. RH will be busy with reviews this summer.
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post #11 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 02:45 PM
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Is Pioneer showing it at the current CES in Vegas. If anyone sees one , please report back on what you observed. Thanks.
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post #12 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 02:50 PM
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I can already hear it now: Reports of deeper more detailed rainbows, huge power draws and super heated room temps with these new tech marvels.

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
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post #13 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's the thread about the new Panasonic models announced at CES:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782840
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post #14 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I'm still not convinced how well these new plasmas will handle motion. False contouring, green phosphor lag. Are those fully solved? We'll have to wait and see...

Well considering that motion handling is just fine in the current iteration of plasmas, I see no reason why they wouldn't be in the new gen. Same is true of false contouring which IMO is a moot point in the better plasmas. Green phosphor lag? I haven't seen it.
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post #15 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:33 PM
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This is really fantastic news. Even taking the worst case measurements of the current pioneers this should be a great black level. I cannot wait for these to come out. I hope the make a 65 or larger, and affordable

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post #16 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Well considering that motion handling is just fine in the current iteration of plasmas, I see no reason why they wouldn't be in the new gen. Same is true of false contouring which IMO is a moot point in the better plasmas. Green phosphor lag? I haven't seen it.

I do believe that you do not see these problems in your plasma. I'm just not sure why. Maybe the Fujitsu specific processing has magically solved all those problems, while the very same glass that is used in my Panasonic plasma shows all the problems like false contouring and green phosphor lag. Or maybe I'm more sensitive to these effects than you are (after all, some people see DLP rainbows while other don't). Don't really know. What I can say is that my 8G Panasonic sucks in motion handling.
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post #17 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I do believe that you do not see these problems in your plasma. I'm just not sure why. Maybe the Fujitsu specific processing has magically solved all those problems, while the very same glass that is used in my Panasonic plasma shows all the problems like false contouring and green phosphor lag. Or maybe I'm more sensitive to these effects than you are (after all, some people see DLP rainbows while other don't). Don't really know. What I can say is that my 8G Panasonic sucks in motion handling.

Do you see these on the current Gen Pioneers as well?

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #18 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:39 PM
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But do they say if these new models are 1080p or not? We may be stuck with the choice of a new Panasonic plasma with 1080p resolution or a new Pioneer with the way lower black levels but 768 resolution still.
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post #19 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by epetti View Post

But do they say if these new models are 1080p or not? We may be stuck with the choice of a new Panasonic plasma with 1080p resolution or a new Pioneer with the way lower black levels but 768 resolution still.

Give me the one with lower black levels... everytime.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #20 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

Do you see these on the current Gen Pioneers as well?

I haven't really had a chance to put a Pioneer plasma on a test bench, so I don't really know. I've been told by other people that Pioneer plasmas have less problems with false contouring compared to Panasonic plasmas. But I don't know about green phosphor lag.
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post #21 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Green phosphor lag? I haven't seen it.

Maybe Fujitsu does not have it (I very much doubt it).

I see it on TH-50PHD8UK.

When white objects disappear from the screen (when the shot changes, for example), the green "ghost" of the white object lingers for a split second. There are also greenish trails when a white object moves.

It's quite clearly visible for the discriminating videophile.
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post #22 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epetti View Post

But do they say if these new models are 1080p or not? We may be stuck with the choice of a new Panasonic plasma with 1080p resolution or a new Pioneer with the way lower black levels but 768 resolution still.

The press release doesn't say that explicitly, IIRC. However, the 20000:1 prototype that was shown last year was a 1080p model. I believe that Pioneer will offer both 768p and 1080p models in 50" and 60" sooner or later. And I believe that all of them will benefit from the significantly improved black levels.
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post #23 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilsp View Post

Claiming to be better than SED - that is pretty bold! Can't wait to see it in real life.

Summer? What will happen to the sales of the XX7 series until then??

Everything is better than SED, because SED doesn't exist yet!

I love HD...and I hated that Anti-Consumer format war.

Now that we can move on... Blu-ray > Digital Downloads!
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post #24 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 04:02 PM
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Of course, the $$$ part of both new lines remains unknown.

Go Duke !
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post #25 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I do believe that you do not see these problems in your plasma. I'm just not sure why. Maybe the Fujitsu specific processing has magically solved all those problems, while the very same glass that is used in my Panasonic plasma shows all the problems like false contouring and green phosphor lag. Or maybe I'm more sensitive to these effects than you are (after all, some people see DLP rainbows while other don't). Don't really know. What I can say is that my 8G Panasonic sucks in motion handling.

It may well be the AVMII and it may also be that I'm less sensitive to motion issues. I know this, I sure see motion issues with LCD. I'm also sensitive to false contouring and I can tell you it is very rare to see it on the Fujitsu and when it is there it's very minor. As you may have heard me say in the past, I've seen many instances where false contouring is in the source and not the display. The green phosophor lag is something I've never seen, but I guess it's possible if you pointed it out to me I'd see it. Don't.
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post #26 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

It's quite clearly visible for the discriminating videophile.

Not sure I'd phrase it that way. I'm quite the 'discriminating videophile', but I still don't see it. Some people never see rainbows on DLPs....does that make them less 'discriminating' or simply immune to the issue? Some people are simply more sensitive to certain issues than others. For me the biggie is black levels. Does that make me more of a videophile or someone that simply appreciates deeper blacks than most?
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post #27 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 05:29 PM
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I said wow....
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post #28 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

It's quite clearly visible for the discriminating videophile.

Perhaps also the obsessive videophile.
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post #29 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 05:57 PM
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Dayum!

If Pioneer just made a bigger plasma I'd be all over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I've been saying for some time that SED will be still-borne as a result of this development. Pioneer actually announced this some time ago and it's a shared patent with Panasonic. So look for Panasonic to do the same thing.

Yes, I remember this patent sharing was discussed a while ago, but where does this info come from? Do we really know Panasonic and Pioneer are sharing this technology?
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post #30 of 5892 Old 01-07-2007, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdavis21484 View Post

Everything is better than SED, because SED doesn't exist yet!

Exactly.

Hard to be all excited by seeing the same demo every time a big expo shows up... only to be followed by a delay announcement.

Even the SED demos are being delayed apparently.

100,000:1 contrast ratio doesn't mean squat if you can't even get one in the living room in this life time. Yay for the supposedly better video format... that no one has ever seen in home.

... Anyone else thinks this contrast ratio stuff is getting out of hand?

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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