Visual pixelation in dark background scenes - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/P...PS4273XXAA.asp

Ok, I'm at my wit's end and I turn to you guys for help.

In bright scenes, this TV's picture quality is perhaps the most appealing image I've ever seen. I utterly adore it.

But in dark scenes, it's almost to the point where I want to throw a hammer through the screen. I'm going to point out a few specific examples...

http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluatio...nal_linear.gif

This is practically how dark scenes present themselves to me, no matter what I'm watching it seems. I can physically see the pixelation in the areas of the screen where there is movement from dark to light, it's to the point where I can barely stand to look at it anymore.

Here's how the conversion from dark to light should look... just ignore the colored line in the center, I just Googled an image I felt would suit my purpose.

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...age014_016.jpg

I wish I could better put it into words for youa ll to understand, because I'm out of ideas. I've tried all the different settings people on here claim makes their Samsung's look amazing in dark scenes, and still it occurs.

I've looked into buying a Calibration DVD, but honestly, until I know for certain that it will "fix" this issue, I won't make the purchase. I've already spent thousands on this, and I want to make an informed choice for my next move.

A couple specific examples...

Last night, I was watching 24 Season 4 on DVD. I use an Oppo 970 player, upconverted to 720p.

Anytime the scene takes place inside CTU headquarters, there is a massive amount of grainiess in the dark blue and blacks of the environment.

Another example, Superman Returns on DVD.

The scene where Supes rescues the folks in the space shuttle, when he tosses the shuttle into space, the dark background of space interacting with the bright burst from the engines causes a massive fluctuation of pixels, almost like every pixel within the area of dark vs bright has on outline and I can see them swimming around.

Visual pixelation in dark background scenes is driving me crazy... it's either a bad TV set that I bought and I should try to get it exchanged, it's a problem with all models of this type of TV, or I simply need to calibrate it properly to get rid of it.

Which one is it?! This is driving me nuts, I've swapped DVD players from Sammy to Oppo, I'm using a short HDMI cable, the room it's in is perfect for viewing in, and I bought an HD Cable box from Shaw to ensure I was getting the best possible PQ.

Help me please.
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post #2 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 10:13 AM
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I'm not sure what you are attempting to show is banding the issue? banding can be seen here:
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...ficationQA.php

Or is it noise in the dark areas? have you tried a different cable/connection? Try swapping in a component cable and see if it is any better.
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post #3 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Color banding, that's it!

Those pictures are EXACTLY what's wrong, although it only seems to happen in dark, not in light scenes on my TV.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/uplo...ndardcolor.jpg
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post #4 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Although I should say that the noise in the dark background of 24 seems to be an isolated incident, haven't noticed that particular issue on anythign else I've watched.

But the color banding in dark scenes is on everythign I watch it seems.

Was also really horrible when watching The Fog on DVD a few weeks ago, whenever the fog swirled around it looked awful.

So what can I do to fix this?
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post #5 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asshandler View Post

So what can I do to fix this?

It looks like banding might be a know issue on Samsung.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ng#post8913196

Try asking this question in the samsung owners thread and see if any solutions have been found.

Edit to add: I read a bit further in the thread & it seems that turning off DNIE might be a good start.
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post #6 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I had browsed through that thread as well, but iot seems that once the problem is made mention of, it's not ever talked about again.
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post #7 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, my Oppo player is HDMI 1.1 from what the website says, how would I go about upgrading it to HDMI 1.3 to eliminate color banding, or more importantly, is this even possible?

Eventually, I'll own a PS3, and it apparently supports HDMI 1.3, so I assume the color banding would not occur on Blu-Ray movies or DVD played on PS3?

Does HDMI require different cables or is it merely a software upgrade? More importantly, would my TV support it or is that a non-issue as it would only matter whether the source would support it?
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post #8 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:11 AM
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I think the below post from the Panasonic 9UK thread might answer your question. A poster there noticed the same (at least it sounds the same) issue on a Panny.

EDIT: this is re: noise in dark backgrounds, not the banding issue.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9689592

Quote:
Originally Posted by slb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotus View Post

Originally posted by scotus
I noticed that in dark areas of pictures, if i get close, i notice a lot of pixels "dancing" around in colors of red and blue and sometimes green. it looks very "noisy" up close. sitting back on the couch, i can't really notice it. it does not occur in other solid color areas, just dark/black areas.

just curious if this is the behavior on everyone's panel, or whether it's some issue on my end (such as poor component cables or something). occurs both with dvd and cable. both connect to my receiver (xr55) via component, and then the receiver sends 1 component to the tv.

not a big deal, just curious if i should fiddle more.


This is normal. Plasmas use a dithering technique (randomly firing off pixels) to create some of the low level gray scale steps (<30IRE). Every plasma I've seen exhibits this to varying degrees, but it is not usually visible from a normal viewing distance. FYI, both of our Panasonic plasmas also have this "feature".

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post #9 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asshandler View Post

Ok, my Oppo player is HDMI 1.1 from what the website says, how would I go about upgrading it to HDMI 1.3 to eliminate color banding, or more importantly, is this even possible?

Eventually, I'll own a PS3, and it apparently supports HDMI 1.3, so I assume the color banding would not occur on Blu-Ray movies or DVD played on PS3?

Does HDMI require different cables or is it merely a software upgrade? More importantly, would my TV support it or is that a non-issue as it would only matter whether the source would support it?

No, your set (most likely) isn't 1.3 capable. You'd have to check the specs on it to see. I suggest that you consider turning off the DNIE & playing with your settings a bit to minimize the effect while still maintaining acceptable PQ. Other than that I would try asking in the owners thread to see if they have any further ideas.
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post #10 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't see where I might find if my TV is HDMI 1.3 compatible, where might one find that information?

And I'm confused, if this is an HDMI problem, why does it also occur on dark scenes when I'm watching TV through my Cable box, which is hooked up via Component?

http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/ProductsSer...ardware-HD.htm
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post #11 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I should make very clear though, that no matter what the issue, nothing will ever make me dislike watching TSN Sportscenter in HDTV. Dear god it's beautiful... if only everything else looked that good on my TV. Of course, everything is nice and bright on Sportscenter, I'd loved to see something dark on that channel and see how it fared.
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post #12 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:50 AM
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It is not 1.3 compliant.

The point of the reference to the 1.3 article was only to show an example of color banding (which 1.3 will make less common) -- not to point out that it shouldn't be happening with your TV. Your TV doesn't have 1.3, nor does your DVD player.
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post #13 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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D'oh.

So aside from calibration, is there anything I can do to address the issue?
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post #14 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asshandler View Post

D'oh.

So aside from calibration, is there anything I can do to address the issue?

Ask owners in the official sammy thread, as I am sure they would know best how to minimize it.
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post #15 of 16 Old 02-12-2007, 06:08 PM
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I actually STARTED to notice this after having my Samsung calibrated. I was testing it with LOTR in the moria scene. I was using my XBMC setup over component at first, then I went and hooked up my plane old Toshiba DVD player (no upscaling). The artifacts where SIGNIFICANTLY less using the Toshiba. This leads me to believe it is dependent on the source and possibly how much scaling is being done.
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post #16 of 16 Old 02-13-2007, 09:04 PM
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I'm not invested in the Samsung plasma at all, but I did notice the same thing and posted it on the forum. I didn't get any responses...and I didn't have any reason to follow-up. I spent some time trying to adjust it myself and I couldn't easily get rid of the problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ung+contouring
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