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post #9361 of 10938 Old 03-11-2008, 10:18 PM
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I got my 42" 700u ISF calibrated this weekend and I don't really like the way it looks. Compression artifacts and noise are a lot more visible, colors are very dull, and the image doesn't have much depth. It looks a lot like using the "custom" image preset but with color at like -15. I also see much more color banding and dithering.

Cinema, though it's a lot dimmer, looks a lot better. i think I'll probably see about reseting it to factory defaults, because it's not an improvement.

Also, from what the calibrator said it sounds like the sets have some unique qualities that make calibration difficult. The color decoder on HDMI is apparently EXTREMELY poor. It had errors in a manner and severity that didn't make any sense to him. The gamma also had unusual qualities. He did think that the VGA input was relatively accurate.

That's suprising because I've read from other calibrators that the 700u can be almost perfect after calibration, while apparently mine is far perfect even after calibration. I wonder if the 42" version is significantly different than the 50" sets that are typically calibrated.
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post #9362 of 10938 Old 03-11-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris0 View Post

Huh? I think it's just myself and another poster, don't remember who, who forced 24 fps to the Panny and got some funky results. Definitely wouldn't want to watch a movie like that.

But to wakeaustin's question, every BD player can output at 60hz. Blu-ray on this set looks fantastic.

Thanks that's actually what I meant, I was extremely ambiguous by using "24 fps source" meaning the movie/disc and "24 fps source" meaning the player. Watching the 24 fps source (movie/disc) converted by the source (in this case a Blu-ray player) has your characterization as "looks fantastic".

I didn't mean that the TV was doing the conversion from 24fps. Sorry, and thanks for clearing things up (I edited my previous posting to be more straightforward, I hope).
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post #9363 of 10938 Old 03-11-2008, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by seemenewd View Post

I didn't mean that the TV was doing the conversion from 24fps. Sorry, and thanks for clearing things up (I edited my previous posting to be more straightforward, I hope).

Gotcha. I thought it might just be a wording issue.

Pics from my TV here and here.
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post #9364 of 10938 Old 03-11-2008, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I got my 42" 700u ISF calibrated this weekend and I don't really like the way it looks. Compression artifacts and noise are a lot more visible, colors are very dull, and the image doesn't have much depth. It looks a lot like using the "custom" image preset but with color at like -15. I also see much more color banding and dithering....

...Also, from what the calibrator said it sounds like the sets have some unique qualities that make calibration difficult. The color decoder on HDMI is apparently EXTREMELY poor. It had errors in a manner and severity that didn't make any sense to him. The gamma also had unusual qualities.


Wow, sorry to hear that. Will you be able to get back to your "default"? I can post mine if you want them.

How are the black levels now? Were his service menu settings anywhere close to the ones I posted? I think at this point, that if black-crush can be resolved, it will be thru some of the primary color settings? Or, we may just be "azz-out" if chris' calibrator is right about the HDMI port...again, maybe due to the fact that "Contrast" is not configurable? Maybe this is why I'm liking my Component ports more.

I sat down tonight and watched "The Usual Suspects", DVR'd on my Dish HD box, and simultaneously on my Denon 1930 upconvert. Stock settings on the Denon produced a much "lighter" (e.g. - brightness turned up) image, with same Custom settings on the HDMI port. I'm running Brightness on the Dish port @ ~(+14) - (+16), and ~(+4) for the DVD player, with the DVD image much more balanced overall. Could the Dish box just be naturally dark? I get black-crush also with the second Dish tuner on my Panny CRT. I may just go rent "Night at the Museum" just to finally confirm, or rule out, if black-crush is source related. My brief time with my friend's Blu-Ray also did not hint at any black-crush issues.

I'll also try to connect my Comcast connection to the set tomorrow and post results. Though it will be a direct connectioin as I no longer have a Comcast STB.

I think I've finally found a happy medium with the Custom mode, as I'm now able to watch at least a half hour of content without changing the settings. I still think that some darker images could be 10-20% lighter, but at least I have a much more livable picture.

Here is where I'm at now on HDMI port with DishNet VIP622:

User Menu
Picture: +18
Brightness: +9
Color: (-2)
Tint: (-4)
Sharpness: (+2)
Black Level: Light
Color Temp: Warm

Service Menu
Color: 37
Sub-Brt: 7F7
Tint: 00
R Cut: 80
B Cut: 80
G Cut: 80
R Drv: DE
G Drv: DB
B Drv: 99
All Cut: 80
All Drv: DE

Color, Brightness, and Tint could vary by (+/-) 1, depending on station, but this is the closest I've gotten to being able to flip thru the channels without changing any settings.
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post #9365 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris0 View Post

Huh? I think it's just myself and another poster, don't remember who, who forced 24 fps to the Panny and got some funky results. Definitely wouldn't want to watch a movie like that.

Lost me at "half'sies". Must be a technical term.
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post #9366 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeaustin View Post

So....I was all set to get the pz85u then started reading about the 50pz750u. In all of your opinions....are these sets going to be essentially the same. The specs look pretty much the same except the 750u seems to have more picture adjustments.

Looking at the specs, as I have not seen an official review of the 85u, you're looking at fewer audio and video inputs on the 85u as well as 2 fewer speakers. The 85u has the increased contrast to 30,000:1 vs. 5,000:1 on the 750u, although one consumer commented he didn't see much of an improvement over last years 77u contrast of 15,000:1. The 750u can be had for $200-$400 less so just depends on whether the 85u meets all your input requirements and whether you really need the additional features not found in the 750u.

You might also want to check the dedicated thread "Panasonic TH-50PZ750U VS TH-50PZ85U" in this forum.

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post #9367 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sourbeef View Post

so what timeframe does the power supply problem rear its ugly head. Or are you being sarcastic?

Just going by the posts i've seen on this forum over the past four years, it seems the power supply failures are occurring anywhere from a few hours to maybe 4 months. Some happen well after the warranty expires. Power supply failures seem to be the predominant failure item among the various manufacturers. Buzzing should be the least of his worries.

It seems that wakeaustin is obsessively worried about hearing buzzing when viewing his plasma from behind, so there may have been a little sarcasm involved.....

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post #9368 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I got my 42" 700u ISF calibrated this weekend and I don't really like the way it looks. Compression artifacts and noise are a lot more visible, colors are very dull, and the image doesn't have much depth. It looks a lot like using the "custom" image preset but with color at like -15. I also see much more color banding and dithering.

Cinema, though it's a lot dimmer, looks a lot better. i think I'll probably see about reseting it to factory defaults, because it's not an improvement.

Also, from what the calibrator said it sounds like the sets have some unique qualities that make calibration difficult. The color decoder on HDMI is apparently EXTREMELY poor. It had errors in a manner and severity that didn't make any sense to him. The gamma also had unusual qualities. He did think that the VGA input was relatively accurate.

That's suprising because I've read from other calibrators that the 700u can be almost perfect after calibration, while apparently mine is far perfect even after calibration. I wonder if the 42" version is significantly different than the 50" sets that are typically calibrated.

Man, that sucks...that was my reservation with having an ISF Calibration...from what I read, the TopDog Calibrators only cailbrate in the Cinema Mode on the 700U...probably for the reasons that you specify.

I get the impression that the pro calibrators noting how easy the 700U is to calibrate are doing so in the Basic Picture Settings Menu...NOT going into the Service Menu.

As for Cinema, for the most part pre-pro cailbration it looks much better than Custom but dimmer...so what changed with the ISF cailbration?

The 700U, as does every plasma HDTV, has limitations but I still stand by the greatest PQ determinent being source and content.

Do you have the HDNet Movies?...some of their films transfer beautifully from 35mm film to 1080i high definition...I couldn't believe how incredibly detailed and clean the 1970's B&W film "Lenny" looked on my 50PZ700U...others such as "Ghandi" looked washed out at times.

So, it seems hit or miss with the PQ - overall, I'm pleased - sure it could be better but so could the source, material and content...my sentiment is "Don't shoot the messenger", namely the 700U but rather hope that the source and content improve to the level set by some current broadcasters, networks and film companies.

One last question - were you impressed with the level of competency of your ISF cailbrator?...apparently, all pro calibrators are not created equal.
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post #9369 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I got my 42" 700u ISF calibrated this weekend and I don't really like the way it looks. Compression artifacts and noise are a lot more visible, colors are very dull, and the image doesn't have much depth. It looks a lot like using the "custom" image preset but with color at like -15. I also see much more color banding and dithering.

Cinema, though it's a lot dimmer, looks a lot better. i think I'll probably see about reseting it to factory defaults, because it's not an improvement.

Also, from what the calibrator said it sounds like the sets have some unique qualities that make calibration difficult. The color decoder on HDMI is apparently EXTREMELY poor. It had errors in a manner and severity that didn't make any sense to him. The gamma also had unusual qualities. He did think that the VGA input was relatively accurate.

That's suprising because I've read from other calibrators that the 700u can be almost perfect after calibration, while apparently mine is far perfect even after calibration. I wonder if the 42" version is significantly different than the 50" sets that are typically calibrated.

I had my 50" 700U ISF calibrated and the colors are super rich now! Can you post your pre and post sencore results? I have mine at 6500K across the board for the most part.

Which preset did he use? My guy used Custom for both HDMI inputs and I also have Cinema calibrated as well (color decoding should follow all presets) for the contrast and brightness. Cinema does offer more of the illusion of depth but Custom shows more details.

Did he start in Warm or Normal for your color preset? Also, did he use color managment? My guy did.
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post #9370 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Lost me at "half'sies". Must be a technical term.

Yes it is, I like to be precise in this thread and use technical terms. Common folk will call it "pulldown", usually 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown.

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
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post #9371 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 07:20 AM
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ISF calibrators are just people. I can't imagine every service menu is the same or even similar and I doubt most people take the time to learn them. Im sure calibrators vary as much as mechanics or IT techs do. Finding a really good one is difficult.

Im sure they all understand the basics, but I would't be satisifed paying for the basics.
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post #9372 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BMAN1212 View Post

...As for Cinema, for the most part pre-pro cailbration it looks much better than Custom but dimmer...


Bumping up the Sub-Brt setting in the service menu made Cinema mode "brighter" for me...I no longer have to max either the Picture or Brightness settings, as I did with the default settings.
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post #9373 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 08:44 AM
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For those debating 50 vs 58, I just returned a 50PC77U to Coscto after two months and replaced it with a 58PZ700U. I just wasnt impressed with the 50. The 58 is quite impressive and I have not noticed any PQ decrease in SD programming.
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post #9374 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by xKRUZx View Post

For those debating 50 vs 58, I just returned a 50PC77U to Coscto after two months and replaced it with a 58PZ700U. I just wasnt impressed with the 50. The 58 is quite impressive and I have not noticed any PQ decrease in SD programming.

I feel confident that I can speak for all of us here with 58's that we certainly agree with you. My sister-in-law who is flying in today for a visit has a 50 (2006 version) and can't understand why we would get a 58, thinking it's probably a waste of money seeing as how her 50 is so good. It'll be interesting to find out if she discovers why we're delighted with our choice. :-)
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post #9375 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by xKRUZx View Post

For those debating 50 vs 58, I just returned a 50PC77U to Coscto after two months and replaced it with a 58PZ700U. I just wasnt impressed with the 50. The 58 is quite impressive and I have not noticed any PQ decrease in SD programming.

To be fair...that's an apples to oranges comparison.

What you're probably most impressed with is the anti-reflective screen of the 700U versus the matte-like anti-glare screen of the 77U...AND, the 50PC77U is 720p resolution versus 1080p resolution on the 58PZ700U.

Therefore, I would argue that the 58" should be a helluva lot better looking picture than the 50"...it has a better (more plasma "pop"ish) screen and higher resolution.

Glad you are happy!
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post #9376 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 11:08 AM
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Just got the TH-42PZ700U and had a quick question about calibration. Are there any tweaks \\ settings that can be changed to improve the picture quality without doing an ISF calibration?

I tried looking through this thread but it's so long and it seems everyone is having their set calibrated professionally.

Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...RN
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post #9377 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNaval View Post

Just got the TH-42PZ700U and had a quick question about calibration. Are there any tweaks \\ settings that can be changed to improve the picture quality without doing an ISF calibration?

I tried looking through this thread but it's so long and it seems everyone is having their set calibrated professionally.

Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...RN

Check out the calibration thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=978568

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post #9378 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericthemidget View Post
I had my 50" 700U ISF calibrated and the colors are super rich now! Can you post your pre and post sencore results? I have mine at 6500K across the board for the most part.

Which preset did he use? My guy used Custom for both HDMI inputs and I also have Cinema calibrated as well (color decoding should follow all presets) for the contrast and brightness. Cinema does offer more of the illusion of depth but Custom shows more details.

Did he start in Warm or Normal for your color preset? Also, did he use color managment? My guy did.
I've attached the PDFs he sent me. He thought the HDMI and component results were similar. VGA has it's own set of data.

He used the "custom" preset for HDMI and VGA (which he thought had similar properties, though the color was much poorer via HDMI) and "standard" for component. The component had a different gamma curve so he wanted it to have its own preset.

Color temp is "warm," but noticeably cooler than it was before calibration (not as blue as "standard" though).

I'm not sure about color management, I'll have check on it.

 

CalibrationReport-HDMI-1.pdf 178.552734375k . file

 

CalibrationReport-VGA.pdf 176.7724609375k . file
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post #9379 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I got my 42" 700u ISF calibrated this weekend and I don't really like the way it looks. Compression artifacts and noise are a lot more visible, colors are very dull, and the image doesn't have much depth. It looks a lot like using the "custom" image preset but with color at like -15. I also see much more color banding and dithering.

Cinema, though it's a lot dimmer, looks a lot better. i think I'll probably see about reseting it to factory defaults, because it's not an improvement.

Also, from what the calibrator said it sounds like the sets have some unique qualities that make calibration difficult. The color decoder on HDMI is apparently EXTREMELY poor. It had errors in a manner and severity that didn't make any sense to him. The gamma also had unusual qualities. He did think that the VGA input was relatively accurate.

That's suprising because I've read from other calibrators that the 700u can be almost perfect after calibration, while apparently mine is far perfect even after calibration. I wonder if the 42" version is significantly different than the 50" sets that are typically calibrated.


I'm not sure who calibrated your set, but my gf's PZ5077U and my PZ58700U calibrated very nicely, colors are rich and vibrate, skin tones are amazing, sure the black levels are not as good as my old CRT RPTC, but honselty all the benefits outweight that. BluRay looks awesome, crisp clean. Eliab from Avical is the man!!
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post #9380 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post

I'm not sure who calibrated your set, but my gf's PZ5077U and my PZ58700U calibrated very nicely, colors are rich and vibrate, skin tones are amazing, sure the black levels are not as good as my old CRT RPTC, but honselty all the benefits outweight that. BluRay looks awesome, crisp clean. Eliab from Avical is the man!!

Huh, I wonder if the 42" version is significantly different the bigger ones.
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post #9381 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 08:03 PM
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hi..this is my first post here..i was wondering if the 42pz700u is hdmi 1.3ver. and would you buy this tv or wait until the 08 come out ..thanks
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post #9382 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I've attached the PDFs he sent me. He thought the HDMI and component results were similar. VGA has it's own set of data.

He used the "custom" preset for HDMI and VGA (which he thought had similar properties, though the color was much poorer via HDMI) and "standard" for component. The component had a different gamma curve so he wanted it to have its own preset.

Color temp is "warm," but noticeably cooler than it was before calibration (not as blue as "standard" though).

I'm not sure about color management, I'll have check on it.


Looking at the HDMI port, it looks like the color matrix is set for "SD". What happens when you change to "HD"? Also, did the guy make any service menu changes? (-8) seems kinda low for Brightness, if your Sub-Brt was anywhere near my setting of 7DE.
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post #9383 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colnago View Post

Looking at the HDMI port, it looks like the color matrix is set for "SD". What happens when you change to "HD"? Also, did the guy make any service menu changes? (-8) seems kinda low for Brightness, if your Sub-Brt was anywhere near my setting of 7DE.

He actually followed up and said that the brightness was too low because the panel had a natural gamma of 1.8 rather than the ideal 2.2.

His words:

"I have been using a technique for setting brightness that is very precise, but requires a fairly linear 2.2 display gamma. This panel is not linear (it is a fairly flat 1.7 at 50% stim on down and then rises steadily above 50% stim until 90% stim where it is more normal 2.1). The natural gamma is more like 1.8. I assumed a 2.2 gamma to set your brightness level, which for this panel was a much too low. I set it at -8 and based on the panel I worked on tonight, +6 is more appropriate. (This is counterintuitive, but a higher gamma means a lower black level)."
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post #9384 of 10938 Old 03-12-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colnago View Post

Looking at the HDMI port, it looks like the color matrix is set for "SD". What happens when you change to "HD"? Also, did the guy make any service menu changes? (-8) seems kinda low for Brightness, if your Sub-Brt was anywhere near my setting of 7DE.

For component he used a calibration DVD, so it may have been set to SD color matrix.
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post #9385 of 10938 Old 03-13-2008, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by dvblue22 View Post

hi..this is my first post here..i was wondering if the 42pz700u is hdmi 1.3ver. and would you buy this tv or wait until the 08 come out ..thanks

Panasonic indicates it is HDMI 1.3. Considering the 800u is running roughly $1000 more than the 700u and is yet unproven, depends on if you really need the few improvements for that much more. General consensus would seem to be to go for the 700/750's while they're still available.

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post #9386 of 10938 Old 03-13-2008, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

For component he used a calibration DVD, so it may have been set to SD color matrix.


Well, if you're just flat out not happy with the settings, try my service/user menu settings to see if it makes any difference. Last night was the first time I've watched TV "without" adjusting any settings since I got the set Super Bowl night.

Just make sure you write down the ISF settings first. I'm sure my settings aren't correct as far as measured values, but I feel like my set is finally "balanced", and brighter than Cinema mode.
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post #9387 of 10938 Old 03-13-2008, 06:21 AM
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I think this guy did a pretty crappy job. Take a look at my results on the 50PZ700U. It's much more consistant.
LL
LL
LL
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post #9388 of 10938 Old 03-13-2008, 07:11 AM
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Ive searched within this thread and cannot find how one accesses the service menu. Can someone please point me in the right direction?

Thank you!
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post #9389 of 10938 Old 03-13-2008, 07:19 AM
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If you don't know what your are doing and have the proper tools, I would not go into the service menu.
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post #9390 of 10938 Old 03-13-2008, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xKRUZx View Post

Ive searched within this thread and cannot find how one accesses the service menu. Can someone please point me in the right direction?

Thank you!

Its here, just not specific instructions. There is a sub thread on its access. Just Google your model number, and "service menu access", and stop at "Bruzzi". A VoIP engineer by trade, and a videophile n00b, I didn't find traversing the menus too daunting. However I tend to be methodical with changes, and having a "back-out plan".

People have also posted that you could void your warranty if you access/break something in there. As stated, without tools, you may be able to get your picture "better", though it may not "correct".

I've posted my findings in an effort to help anyone else choosing to follow that path. FWIW, if I hadn't made my changes in the service menu, I would have taken the set back.

Good luck.
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