The Official Pioneer 8G KURO Owner's Discussions Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Scrutinizer View Post

Thank you for the pics. About the under the bridge at night scene, is it just me or does the 8G set have quite a bit of black crush compared to the other set.

Black crush could be compesated for, of course. Honestly, black crush really only becomes a significant problem when a panel is unable to produce black. While using a CRT, I often enjoyed "crushing" the blacks just a tad as they were dark enough for a smooth fade into blackness. On a bright flat panel, however, it simply looks terrible.
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post #542 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

Black crush could be compesated for, of course. Honestly, black crush really only becomes a significant problem when a panel is unable to produce black. While using a CRT, I often enjoyed "crushing" the blacks just a tad as they were dark enough for a smooth fade into blackness. On a bright flat panel, however, it simply looks terrible.

Do you have some kind of science to back this statement up or is this your opinion? It seems a bit ridiculous as black crush means what it says - there are no details to decipher in true black crush which is the problem with Black Crush. After reviewing the article below I would guess it to be more correct to say you tweaked the Gray levels not the black crush IMO.

Below is a snippet from an article describing the calibration process and how the ISFer checks for and attempts to remove crush:
04. More on Calibration please!
Ok.... here is something I wrote for someone in another topic but deserves to be here too...ISF Calibration is like the ultimate thing you can do to any TV or projector. It involves a technician to come to your house with a bunch of equipment and a laptop. He/She will run a series of tests on your TV using your PS3 and/or DVD/HD DVD/Blu-ray (whatever) player. They do all sorts of things. And it can get very complicated.

Basically your TV should be operating within a certain output of light for each color, and this amount is NEVER correct from the factory - ever. This is only the first step, the basic idea of the color accuracy is to find "the perfect gray", basically the color gray is a perfect combination of the primary colors. If you can adjust through the service menu (its a complicated command code line similar to HTML in the way that if you don't know how to read and navigate it then your screwed) the properties that control color then you can achieve the perfect gray, therefore you are achieving the perfect output of all the primary colors that is as close to real life as it can get, since HDTV cannot show the immense gambit of color that exists in real life this is important for giving you the best possible.

Once this starts he will be going through colors with light/color reading instruments to determine the best gray combination possible. After a while it will be found, then they will proceed to change the black levels on your set, getting the full shadow detail possible. What is going on is basically when TVs leave the factory and the store they come to you totally out of whack even though it still looks great. He popped in Batman Begins on HD DVD, there is a scene where young Bruce falls down a well, when you play it in slow motion (or even regular speed) you can see the fine detail in the bricks of the well, but when he changed the settings after many tests you could see FAR more detail in the bricks where his shadow is. This is because he altered the black level on the TV, before what was happening was something called "black crush" its when the black levels are far too strong and they "crush" out detail by being significantly too dark when they SHOULD NOT BE. So that is a good step as well, very important.

He does it with white levels too. If you are watching or playing a movie or game with lots of bright lights sometimes you could be missing out on detail and picture quality because the white levels are far too high. Same as black crush, this is basically "white crush".

In the process you will find out that your TV was probably "pushing" a color too much. What this means is that your TV was putting out too much of one color, often times it is red. In any case it doesn't matter what the color is that is being pushed, it is too much, over saturated and will give a unnatural effect (most often you cannot even tell until after the changes he has done occur) which is not pleasing.

Amongst other things, it is good to note that the ISF Calibrator will take the blue out of your whites ... the "whiter than white" that all HDTVs have. Let me explain.... ALL HDTVS have the color blue put into their whites, it is NOT something that you can change, but the ISF Calibrator can. Why do they do this? The TV companies know that people want things to look "good" regardless of why or what for. But this is merely an illusion, think of this example..... laundry detergent has often marketed "whiter than white socks!" but this it simply not true, there is no such thing as "whiter than white", the trick here is that the human eye picks up blue stronger than white and when a bit of blue is added with white your brain is literally being tricked into thinking that it is more white than it really is. But it is actually blueish white. This is false and once you have seen the difference you will never want to go back, true white is accurate and really makes a big difference the first time you see it. For example, when I see other people's HDTVs, even in pictures on the forums I instantly see this problem, every single time. Same with other colors.

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post #543 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

Do you have some kind of science to back this statement up or is this your opinion? It seems a bit ridiculous as black crush means what it says - there are no details to decipher in true black crush which is the problem with Black Crush.

It makes sense to me - when you're crushing shadow details on a flat panel with bad blacks (greys) then it's very obvious that it's just going into a solid grey section on the panel.

However, when it's going into full black, it could easily look like the area is in full shadow, and you can "accept" it.


That said, with a photograph, you only have a limited dynamic range to work with, as a camera can only capture scenes within a certain range of brightness. What this means is that if you are capturing all the highlight detail in a picture, you are very likely "crushing" the blacks somewhat. So with all the shadow details being darker on the 8G panel as it has better blacks, it's far more likely to look like there isn't much shadow detail there in a photograph.

See here for an example: http://sr-388.net/2007/05/11/how-to-...l-display-pt2/
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post #544 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

Black crush could be compesated for, of course. Honestly, black crush really only becomes a significant problem when a panel is unable to produce black. While using a CRT, I often enjoyed "crushing" the blacks just a tad as they were dark enough for a smooth fade into blackness. On a bright flat panel, however, it simply looks terrible.

I honestly think that the issue of black crush in that photo is more a result the camera than the panel.

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post #545 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nomp View Post

Maybe a bit out of place here, but does anyone know how these sets fare in altitude? I'm at 5000ft and am under the impression that not all plasmas can handle the altitude.

The 9UK generation of the Panasonics are rated for up to 9100 ft. I have not looked up the specs for the new PX75 and PZ700 models, but I would expect the spec to be the same for the PX75 & PX77 models. 5000 ft is not an issue for any of the brand name plasmas that I know of. 8000 ft or higher is where you need to start checking the specs.
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post #546 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

The 9UK generation of the Panasonics are rated for up to 9100 ft. I have not looked up the specs for the new PX75 and PZ700 models, but I would expect the spec to be the same for the PX75 & PX77 models. 5000 ft is not an issue for any of the brand name plasmas that I know of. 8000 ft or higher is where you need to start checking the specs.

Just a slight word of caution: Since Pioneer has completely redesigned the new Plasma panel cells, it might be prudent to actually determine what the maximum atltitude levels are for the 8th gen. sets. Better to know for sure, rather than find out the hard way.

...
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post #547 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Film based material is suppose to have an encoded stream (flagging per say) that tells the output source that is is film based. Most of the time, the Pioneer is "intellegent enough" to detect this encoding.

most of the time? when does it not?

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post #548 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

Do you have some kind of science to back this statement up or is this your opinion? It seems a bit ridiculous as black crush means what it says - there are no details to decipher in true black crush which is the problem with Black Crush. After reviewing the article below I would guess it to be more correct to say you tweaked the Gray levels not the black crush IMO.

Below is a snippet from an article describing the calibration process and how the ISFer checks for and attempts to remove crush:
04. More on Calibration please!
Ok.... here is something I wrote for someone in another topic but deserves to be here too...ISF Calibration is like the ultimate thing you can do to any TV or projector. It involves a technician to come to your house with a bunch of equipment and a laptop. He/She will run a series of tests on your TV using your PS3 and/or DVD/HD DVD/Blu-ray (whatever) player. They do all sorts of things. And it can get very complicated.

Basically your TV should be operating within a certain output of light for each color, and this amount is NEVER correct from the factory - ever. This is only the first step, the basic idea of the color accuracy is to find "the perfect gray", basically the color gray is a perfect combination of the primary colors. If you can adjust through the service menu (its a complicated command code line similar to HTML in the way that if you don't know how to read and navigate it then your screwed) the properties that control color then you can achieve the perfect gray, therefore you are achieving the perfect output of all the primary colors that is as close to real life as it can get, since HDTV cannot show the immense gambit of color that exists in real life this is important for giving you the best possible.

Once this starts he will be going through colors with light/color reading instruments to determine the best gray combination possible. After a while it will be found, then they will proceed to change the black levels on your set, getting the full shadow detail possible. What is going on is basically when TVs leave the factory and the store they come to you totally out of whack even though it still looks great. He popped in Batman Begins on HD DVD, there is a scene where young Bruce falls down a well, when you play it in slow motion (or even regular speed) you can see the fine detail in the bricks of the well, but when he changed the settings after many tests you could see FAR more detail in the bricks where his shadow is. This is because he altered the black level on the TV, before what was happening was something called "black crush" its when the black levels are far too strong and they "crush" out detail by being significantly too dark when they SHOULD NOT BE. So that is a good step as well, very important.

He does it with white levels too. If you are watching or playing a movie or game with lots of bright lights sometimes you could be missing out on detail and picture quality because the white levels are far too high. Same as black crush, this is basically "white crush".

In the process you will find out that your TV was probably "pushing" a color too much. What this means is that your TV was putting out too much of one color, often times it is red. In any case it doesn't matter what the color is that is being pushed, it is too much, over saturated and will give a unnatural effect (most often you cannot even tell until after the changes he has done occur) which is not pleasing.

Amongst other things, it is good to note that the ISF Calibrator will take the blue out of your whites ... the "whiter than white" that all HDTVs have. Let me explain.... ALL HDTVS have the color blue put into their whites, it is NOT something that you can change, but the ISF Calibrator can. Why do they do this? The TV companies know that people want things to look "good" regardless of why or what for. But this is merely an illusion, think of this example..... laundry detergent has often marketed "whiter than white socks!" but this it simply not true, there is no such thing as "whiter than white", the trick here is that the human eye picks up blue stronger than white and when a bit of blue is added with white your brain is literally being tricked into thinking that it is more white than it really is. But it is actually blueish white. This is false and once you have seen the difference you will never want to go back, true white is accurate and really makes a big difference the first time you see it. For example, when I see other people's HDTVs, even in pictures on the forums I instantly see this problem, every single time. Same with other colors.

Good post - no great post.....thank you!

dv
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post #549 of 17585 Old 06-18-2007, 11:11 PM
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Sorry if my question is out of topics, I'm just wondering, anyone here knows whether Roman from Invision accept order from overseas? Is it worth the hassle ordering from overseas? Is this sets can do Autovoltage, or only 110v? I live in Australia (240v).
Just in case distributor here is ripping their customer off (as it is the case for a lot of them), ,and knowing from this board that Roman is a reputable sources, I would like to order 60" Elite from him in September.
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post #550 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ben1680 View Post

Sorry if my question is out of topics, I'm just wondering, anyone here knows whether Roman from Invision accept order from overseas? Is it worth the hassle ordering from overseas? Is this sets can do Autovoltage, or only 110v? I live in Australia (240v).
Just in case distributor here is ripping their customer off (as it is the case for a lot of them), ,and knowing from this board that Roman is a reputable sources, I would like to order 60" Elite from him in September.

Roman has told me he doesn't carry the Elites. Maybe that's changed.
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post #551 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 05:11 AM
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It makes sense to me - when you're crushing shadow details on a flat panel with bad blacks (greys) then it's very obvious that it's just going into a solid grey section on the panel.

However, when it's going into full black, it could easily look like the area is in full shadow, and you can "accept" it.

Exactly. It can create a deep shadow that is appealing rather than a harsh cut-off into gray. The above example is likely limited by the camera being used more than anything, though.

Still, there are certainly times when it helps. Take something like Silent Hill (a game). The areas shrouded in darkness literally have NO shadow detail (that is, they are designed to be COMPLETELY black). This worked beautifully on a CRT and helped to create some rather frightening situations. On a flat panel, however, this was unplayably ugly in appearance. This mirrors the difference between black crush on devices which are both capable and incapable of producing a rich black. The capable displays are able to produce a rich, captivating image while the incapable displays end up looking terrible.
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post #552 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 05:33 AM
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Hi Guys,

I'm totally depressed today . Since I had so much work to do last week(end) yesterday I really had the first real chance to have a movie evening with my brand new PDP-5080. Well that enjoyment was very short lived. The TV has already one dead pixel a little right from the center and also one that is glowing red from time to time in the upper left. The red one was there and gone like not constantly but the other dead pixel is .. well dead. I tried the video pattern and made sure its really in the screen but yes.
Well from my viewing distance I can see that 1 or 2 pixels easy and its very annoying taking away movie feeling. My only hope now is Roman from Invision where I bought the TV. Man I waited 4 years to final be able to buy that TV and well big thx Pioneer I can't even enjoy it now! Roman ... please help!!!

BluRays: 11 (last: Cars & Ratatouille)
HD-DVD: 0
---------------------------------------------
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post #553 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 05:36 AM
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Magic,
You might want to verify that you don't have the set on one of the reduced power settings.

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post #554 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 05:45 AM
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Magic,
You might want to verify that you don't have the set on one of the reduced power settings.

Just checked. Nope and does do anything. It only reduced the overall brightness. Doesn't help with the dead pixel. The red one seems normal once again but I had that already. Thx for the tip ... could have helped

BluRays: 11 (last: Cars & Ratatouille)
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---------------------------------------------
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post #555 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 05:54 AM
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Using the OTA feed from Time Warner here in San Antonio (no box). I have the SA8300HD on my DLP and can't stand the compression artifacts. I just moved from Houston and the TWC feed here in San Antonio sucks big time.

As for the 360, I have the reference level set to standard which yeilds the most shadow detail. As I said earlier, this TV will be used 99% of the time for gaming and is absolutely incredible with the 360. I've thought about upgrading to an elite but I really don't see a need for HDMI when VGA at its native resolution looks so good.

I use mine with the 360 as well. What do you find are the best settings on both the 360 and the TV? I watched "batman begins" last night and during dark scenes the actors faces would turn a single color of pink. I'm not really happy about that. There are any number of output options on the 360 as well as options on the 5080 that it's not at all clear what is best.

I found that the from behind the tee shots looked terrible on my 8300sd over TWC!! Clearly compression artifacts. I'll get an OTA antenna to see how big a difference there is.
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post #556 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 06:00 AM
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I watched "batman begins" last night and during dark scenes the actors faces would turn a single color of pink. I'm not really happy about that.

Seriously?

That's not good to here as that is the exact problem faced by various other plasmas (Panasonic, Samsung, and Fujitsu most certainly suffer from this as I have tested for it myself). All of those offered a deeper black than the 7th gen Pioneer at the expense of smooth gradients in the shadows. The darkest of colors on those sets produced shades of pink instead of proper color gradients.
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post #557 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 06:18 AM
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I am really looking into getting the 4280HD but had a few questions. How good is this set at handling the possibility of burn-in? I read earlier in this thread about burn in almost being eliminated because of the features being used in the tv. Can anyone compare this set to the 4270HD as far as burn in is concerned? The reason I am asking is I have the 4270HD right now but would consider upgrading if the burn-in features are better. Is there any buzzing on the new Pioneers?

Also, how hot do the new Pioneer's get? My current 4270HD gets pretty hot and was wondering if they are cooler with the new models.

Thanks in advance!
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post #558 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dark1x View Post

Seriously?

That's not good to here as that is the exact problem faced by various other plasmas (Panasonic, Samsung, and Fujitsu most certainly suffer from this as I have tested for it myself). All of those offered a deeper black than the 7th gen Pioneer at the expense of smooth gradients in the shadows. The darkest of colors on those sets produced shades of pink instead of proper color gradients.

Yep., MIght be a setting problem with the xbox. There's a black level option and I think that I might have saet that wrong. Changing some of the TV settings seemed to alleviate the problem somewhat as well. Unfortunately it was late and I've sent the movie back. Hopefully others have seen it and dealt with it. (Or never seen it)
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post #559 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Magic(tm) View Post

Just checked. Nope and does do anything. It only reduced the overall brightness. Doesn't help with the dead pixel. The red one seems normal once again but I had that already. Thx for the tip ... could have helped


Have you tried running one of the Pixar animated DVDs, several times. Others have suggested that works to solve some stuck pixel problems. You might want to give it a try. Good luck.

..
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post #560 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Magic(tm) View Post

Hi Guys,

I'm totally depressed today . Since I had so much work to do last week(end) yesterday I really had the first real chance to have a movie evening with my brand new PDP-5080. Well that enjoyment was very short lived. The TV has already one dead pixel a little right from the center and also one that is glowing red from time to time in the upper left. The red one was there and gone like not constantly but the other dead pixel is .. well dead. I tried the video pattern and made sure its really in the screen but yes.
Well from my viewing distance I can see that 1 or 2 pixels easy and its very annoying taking away movie feeling. My only hope now is Roman from Invision where I bought the TV. Man I waited 4 years to final be able to buy that TV and well big thx Pioneer I can't even enjoy it now! Roman ... please help!!!

I'm so sorry for you, man!

I hope you can exchange it.

I wish Pioneer had a zero dead pixel policy, what is their policy?

/Martin
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post #561 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 09:36 AM
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I'm so sorry for you, man!

I hope you can exchange it.

I wish Pioneer had a zero dead pixel policy, what is their policy?

Don't know. Here is a picture of the ISO Standard for Pixel errors in germany. Note that LCD and Plasma a usually classII panels.



I think Pioneer will make their warranty in a way they are covered if not a extreme case like 10 or more. It all comes down to Invision I think and what they say since if it comes to pixel errors I really don't think you can go to the Manufacturer. In the other thread somebody posted that Sears told him only 1% or more would be covered by them. On the 1080p display he was looking at thats more than 20000 (yes right) dead pixels until it counts.
Members here ask me already to keep them updated about it and as soon as I had a chance to talk to Roman from Invision I will.

BluRays: 11 (last: Cars & Ratatouille)
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post #562 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 09:57 AM
 
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Magic(tm) give me a call to discuss. I am hoping the pixel's will go away themselves. Pioneer does state that if you can see it from 8 ft or farther they will come out and take a look. As we all know there are millions of pixels and I will do my best to take care of it but there is a point where I can do so much with one pixel and thats talking to Pioneer (if I take the unit back it is mine forever as I could not sell it to anyone). Like I said call me and I will see what we can work out.
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post #563 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bak_phy View Post

I use mine with the 360 as well. What do you find are the best settings on both the 360 and the TV? I watched "batman begins" last night and during dark scenes the actors faces would turn a single color of pink. I'm not really happy about that. There are any number of output options on the 360 as well as options on the 5080 that it's not at all clear what is best.

I found that the from behind the tee shots looked terrible on my 8300sd over TWC!! Clearly compression artifacts. I'll get an OTA antenna to see how big a difference there is.

I'm using VGA @ 1360x768 with the reference level set to Standard. Changing the reference level to Intermediate or Expanded crushes whites and blacks and over-saturates colors. Calibrating white and black levels in user mode gave me a contrast of 51 and brightness of -7. I don't watch movies on my xbox but tried a couple (Star Wars III and LOTR:FOTR) and skin tones were very good. Are you using the HD-DVD add-on?

As for the US Open...I watched some on my 65" 1080p DLP with the SA8300HD and I agree the compression artifacts were horrible (TWC). The OTA feed was MUCH better. If you don't want to get an antenna yet you can run the coax from the wall directly into the Ant A input and perform a cable channel scan. You should pick up on TWC's OTA feed.
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post #564 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dmtremblay View Post

I'm using VGA @ 1360x768 with the reference level set to Standard. Changing the reference level to Intermediate or Expanded crushes whites and blacks and over-saturates colors. Calibrating white and black levels in user mode gave me a contrast of 51 and brightness of -7. I don't watch movies on my xbox but tried a couple (Star Wars III and LOTR:FOTR) and skin tones were very good. Are you using the HD-DVD add-on?

As for the US Open...I watched some on my 65" 1080p DLP with the SA8300HD and I agree the compression artifacts were horrible (TWC). The OTA feed was MUCH better. If you don't want to get an antenna yet you can run the coax from the wall directly into the Ant A input and perform a cable channel scan. You should pick up on TWC's OTA feed.

I was thinking of getting the VGA cable for the xbox. Any reason to believe that it would be significantly better than the component? As there is only on dvi input on the tv it would have to be shared with my, eventual, computer input which I'd prefer not no.
I've put the cable straight into my other TV (olevia) and the results were very good. Someone told me that the cable box doesn't do anyting to the signal (no compression when recording) and so there shouldn't be any advantage to bypassing the box. Isn't the OTA signal that I'd pick up on the coax is the same as what I'm currently recording? Seems silly to be putting two identical signals down the wire.

I have the HD addon to the 360. I wish that I hadn't sent "Batman" back as I'd love to try out with standard black level.

Has anyone else had problems with "solid pink faces" in low light scenes?
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post #565 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 10:34 AM
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[quote=bak_phy As there is only on dvi input on the tv it would have to be shared with my, eventual, computer input which I'd prefer not no.[/QUOTE]

Is the PC input DVI or VGA on the 5080?

Thanks,
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post #566 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmtremblay View Post

As for the US Open...I watched some on my 65" 1080p DLP with the SA8300HD and I agree the compression artifacts were horrible (TWC). The OTA feed was MUCH better. If you don't want to get an antenna yet you can run the coax from the wall directly into the Ant A input and perform a cable channel scan. You should pick up on TWC's OTA feed.

I view via Comcast and NBC HD Golf still cheats.

Comparatively to CBS HD Golf which is crystal clear for anyone that may have seen the Masters --- NBC is still cheating with some of their cameras, they simply are not using all HD Camera's like CBS and it's very obvious when they switch at certain holes the clarity is SD level whereas the Masters Tourney was Primo on CBS. NBC HD Sunday Night Football is the only compression issues I ever observe with Football HD broadcasts - I never have issues with ESPN or CBS but it's real obvious with NBC HD with Football also. In fact my primetime CBS HD is close to perfection on nearly every show (even though they ought to shoot the person that pumps the audio up on CBS) and unfortunately I cannot receive OTA to compare it.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #567 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bak_phy View Post

I was thinking of getting the VGA cable for the xbox. Any reason to believe that it would be significantly better than the component?

This is a good article about component vs VGA with respect to the XBOX 360.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6139690/index.html

I would stay with component if I were you.

I just sold my XBOX 360 premium so that I could purchase the XBOX 360 Elite and connect it via HDMI.

Basheer
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post #568 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 01:02 PM
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Any word on dithering in the 5080? A good test (I think) is to pause a scene and see if any of the pixels are flickering.

I just got a 5070 this past February. I'm looking to see if I have to already upgrade to the 5010 (or the Elite version already), damn!
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post #569 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 01:24 PM
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Is overscan defeatable on this set with HDMI input? Im willing to call in an ISF calibrator to tinker in the service menu to get rid of it.

Im so close to buying the 42" model, but HATE overscan. I can use the VGA input to get no overscan, which is great, but my HDDVD player needs HDMI for advanced audio codecs... even if it is only 2% overscan, I dont want it
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post #570 of 17585 Old 06-19-2007, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nmcnair View Post

Is overscan defeatable on this set with HDMI input? Im willing to call in an ISF calibrator to tinker in the service menu to get rid of it.

Im so close to buying the 42" model, but HATE overscan. I can use the VGA input to get no overscan, which is great, but my HDDVD player needs HDMI for advanced audio codecs... even if it is only 2% overscan, I dont want it

I have to ask why?

For PC input? Sure, that makes perfect sense. For HD-DVD, though? I don't see how that is a deal breaker.
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