The Official Pioneer 8G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 205 - AVS Forum
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post #6121 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Depends on where they are on the screen and if they are flickering or completely off.

One is completely off the other is off typically for anywhere from five to ten seconds then goes on for roughly a second.
Both noticeable in any brighter scenes, especially if near full screen of one dominant color.

It is a week old and I bought it at BB.
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post #6122 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RBO View Post

I say only those with hearing ability to hear these Kuros constantly buzzing would benefit from any audio calibration. Those unable to hear any buzzing, or conversely, like me suffer from tinitus and hear constant buzzing with or without a Kuro, do NOT need to worry about nor should they have even purchased audio systems worthy of specialty servicing.


This is so wrong, it's hard to even refute. The only thing I can say is I know a home theater enthusiast who is literally DEAF above 5,000Hz in both ears from ear infectons... and those infections left him with tinitus in both ears. Yet his hearing is INCREDIBLE within the range he can still hear. Doing a system calibration... he hears none of the calibration tones starting at about 5200Hz... even putting his ear right to the tweeter... nothing. Yet no nuance in the sound gets by him... unless he simply can't hear it at all. His ability to pick out differences in components, cables, and setup is uncanny. I think people have little appreciation for how good their hearing still is, even when they have "problems".
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post #6123 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 12:52 PM
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D-Nice

I have settled on CS2 for now just based on my observation if the sky/ mountain scene previously mentioned.
I agree with Ken Ross about some blues being more towards purple than true blue. But what really has my curiosity peaked is why do most other blues seem spot on and just a narrow selection of a royal blue seem purple.

Looking at the observation of the CS 1 and 2 spaces the extra saturation of cyan may balance out any effect that the magenta tint of the anti glare layer may have (again just a WAG). I don't know if a colorometer based instrument can pick this up. A tri stimulus based instrument should measure levels closer to what we see.

I would be interested UMR's professional opinion on this blue hue shift we see. Has he noticed it as well on the 150's as well.


D-Nice before I adjusted CS1 my measured green was over saturated as well. I had to move green in the CMS all the way to the left to get it close to the STD point. It would be nice of PIO gave us some control of brightness in CMS instead of just HUE.I was switching between my user adjustments and Optimum. Optimun seems to shift the blue event we are discussing to CS1 dynamics. But for me optimum has too much saturation and a cool color temperature. OK for sports but not my taste for movies.

Here is the before and after measures of CS1 together.




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post #6124 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfrenzy View Post

I have one stuck pixel, cyan on white... ran jscreenfix for like an hour didn't do anything *shrug* might run it tonight overnight

Since there are no cyan pixels, nor any white pixels, it sounds like what you actually have is a dead red pixel with no light output. RED+BLUE+GREEN = White
BLUE+GREEN=Cyan

So, clearly, RED is missing.
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post #6125 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I'm sure I would, but then again my hearing is nowhere close to my vision. So sound isn't as big to me. I can see every single visual wrong and am able to appreciate every detail, but can barely hear a difference between $5K floor standers and a $500 pair.
And room treatments for sound in my echo cavern would just not fit.

There are $5K speakers that are no better than $500 speakers (leaving out the extra bass the bigger speakers are likely to have. And there are room and setup situations that will make the differences difficult or imposssible to hear also. That doesn't mean you can't hear it... it just means you probably haven't been in an enviroment were you COULD hear it - where ANYBODY could hear it. Few stores have rooms that are good enough to emulate a room in your home.

You also dismiss room treatments when there are MANY solutions that will "fit" any room from tiny to huge - and I seriously mean ANY room and ANY decor... including things your spouse won't think are ugly. You just have to get out of denial and get into the 21st century.
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post #6126 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

After reading what seems like 100 pages, I cannot find an answer to my question. I watch a lot of old, black and white movies. I watch a lot of old TV shows from DVDs. All told, I probably watch 30%-40% non-wide screen material. I hate those weird stretch modes, so I'll be watching them in a 4:3 aspect ratio. Are these Kuro plasma TVs a good choice for that material. I shudder at the thought of a LCD TV, but fear that may be my only choice.

You should probably consider 2 displays... if you want something for that much 4:3 content, use an LCD or a 4:3 CRT - it's not high-def anyway, so a modest-cost 36" CRT is going to look as good as anything. Then get the "good" display for enjoying high-def programming.
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post #6127 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

D-Nice
I have settled on CS2 for now just based on my observation if the sky/ mountain scene previously mentioned.
I agree with Ken Ross about some blues being more towards purple than true blue. But what really has my curiosity peaked is why do most other blues seem spot on and just a narrow selection of a royal blue seem purple.

I agree with both of you on the very rare cases where royal blue may look purple. Speculating just as you are, it may be interference with the color filter. I will be speaking with my contact at Pioneer in a few days and I'll ask them about it.

Quote:


D-Nice before I adjusted CS1 my measured green was over saturated as well. I had to move green in the CMS all the way to the left to get it close to the STD point. It would be nice of PIO gave us some control of brightness in CMS instead of just HUE.

I'll try what you did later tonight. I agree that saturation control in the CMS would be a huge plus.
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post #6128 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

One is completely off the other is off typically for anywhere from five to ten seconds then goes on for roughly a second.
Both noticeable in any brighter scenes, especially if near full screen of one dominant color.

It is a week old and I bought it at BB.

If you bought it at BB, then why not just exchange it? I'm actually surprised
there are still panels that have dead/stuck pixels these days.

By the way, check out the official pictures thread. Some nice Ratatouille and
Cars shots.
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post #6129 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by maxdb View Post

Why bother? Because you could end up with a properly calibrated display. That's why bother. If you have a calibrator in your area using a high-end meter (Precision Research or Konica-Minolta for example), this is not going to be a chump who will leave you with a mess.

I have not found that to be a clear criteria. I have had to rework quite a few displays where spectros from those manufacturers were used. The skill of the person in question is still very important and all meters from those manufacturers are not of the same quality.
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post #6130 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Beowulf57 View Post

Absolutely! The differences from D-nice's suggested settings and my ISF calibration settings are large on a number of RGB High/Low settings and even more so with the Colour Management.

The change was remarkable: at first I thought saturation might be a bit high, but as I watched further material, I realized that the colour renditions had made a quantum leap in tracking variations in physical settings and light shifts, e.g., changes in colour tone in differing indoor settings/light conditions and faces and changes in outdoor lighting due to weather conditions, time of day, etc.

When I used D-nice's settings, these shifts were much less apparent, as in the picture retained a more similar colour cast across different scenes and lighting conditions. All the apparent "dullness" is now gone and when "Pop" is called for, it is there; when subtle shadings are presented they appear very realistic. Check out the difference in perceived colours and shadow detail viewing the same scene from early morning to noon to late afternoon to evening on a sunny day, a cloudy day and a dark, stormy, rainy day and you'll get some idea of what this variation is about.

To use an analogy from audio reproduction: on a poor system, everything starts to sound similar; on a revealing system, differences in recording venue, tonal variations and interpretive nuances jump out at you. Excellent lighting design on stage produces an increased sense of the dramatic content of the play, supporting and creating the meaning and emotional tones of the presentation. It is similar in films and a great director uses lighting to enhance the message and tone of the story. This is one of the major benefits of calibration...from my point of view.

I would not expect my settings to match anything for ISF Day/Night modes. It would be like taking my Pure mode settings and placing them in Standard or User mode. As far as saturation goes, it sounds as if your ISF modes were set to CS1.
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post #6131 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Ken, on every Pure mode capable Pioneer model, one always has to increase the color. On my calibrated 1130 which has no CS1/CS2 selection, my color is set to +4. On the 40 series Elites, you still had to boost the color in CS2. Pioneer has never implemented Pure mode where 0 or any lesser number equaled reference.

Also, this blue "controversy" has absolutely noting to do with the actual blue color point. It has to do with cyan. As we've seen, the cyan point is over saturated in CS1 and although you can desaturate it, it will never be as accurate as in CS2. Any blue that requires a mix of cyan (the color of the sky) will look different in CS1 compared to CS2. CS1 adds more green to cyan while CS2 does not.

Which one is more accurate to the Rec709 chart compared to which "looks" better based on other factors are not the same.

My experiments with CS1 in Pure mode matches Eddie's except on the green color point. Mine is still outside the triangle.

I understand what you're saying regarding Rec709 and I've never disputed that, but at least on my 150 the CS2 simply can not be adjusted for an accurate, consistent blue as one sees it with his/her eyes in the real world. I haven't noticed the 'mix of cyan' issue or too much green in some blues with CS1. On the other hand if it's this additive effect of green to some blues that is causing what I feel is an unquestionably more accurate (using real-life blues as oppoed to Rec709) CS1 sky blue, blue shirts etc., then perhaps I am seeing what you're discussing. I know it's not just my color perception since others I've shown it to can see it, as well as some other AVS posters. It's just such as odd effect.

As yet another data point, I was at Best Buy today testing a Sony HD digital camera (CX7) that records to memory stick. I brought the memory stick home and dumped the HD footage to DVD and then played it on the Panny BD30 BR player. The results once again showed the same error in blue with CS2 as evidenced by the blue shirts that BB employees wear appearing too magenta with CS2. CS1 was right on the mark with this color. To my eyes this is disturbing and makes me always return to CS1.

For whatever reason, with CS1's color down to -2 and red moved to +5 in the color management section, other colors to my eyes look virtually the same as CS2. So I honestly see no downside to CS1 when adjusted this way...at least on my 150. Now perhaps my 150 is out of whack in terms of its color decoder, but it sure looks amazingly accurate on CS1. Go figure.
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post #6132 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 09:14 PM
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5080 Break-in question. Should I have the TV screen set to "wide", "full" or "auto" during the break in process? Every time I turn off the TV it default to "auto" which I think chooses "full" screen. I already have about 60 hours breaking it in on "wide" so I hope that is what I should have been using the entire time... Thanks!

~Life is short...that is why I spent two grand on a kick butt TV!!
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post #6133 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 09:35 PM
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It looks to me like the "wide" screen setting actually uses a few more pixels on the far left and right of the screen so I chose that in an attempt to have all the pixels lit while using the burn in CD. Now I wonder if I made a mistake...when I switch to "full" mode it looks like there is a light vertical bar about 1 pixel wide and 1/8" in from the edge of the screen on the right hand side while using the break-in disk. It is not apparent while watching movies and such however. Have I messed up the set???? Argh!

~Life is short...that is why I spent two grand on a kick butt TV!!
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post #6134 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 4funonline View Post

Have I messed up the set???? Argh!

No, but your logic is suffering from strain.

Just use the setting that fills the screen, and your TV will be fine. You may recover with time and effort.
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post #6135 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 10:12 PM
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LOL, yes I believe I am in overload due to my unbridled excietment at getting my new TV. I keep flipping between wide and full and they look the same but in full screen what I described as a 1 pixel wide vertical line 1/8" in is actually not a line on further review and brain trama I realize that that far 1/8" wide are is actually a little lighter then the rest of the screen. This is confusing the heck out of me since I put my finger on the bezel at the far edge of the lit pixels and toggled between full and wide mode and both lit up those pixels to my finger...

Guess I will leave it on "Full" screen since that is where I am seeing the issue with the lighter pixels. Thank you for letting me know my TV will be OK

~Life is short...that is why I spent two grand on a kick butt TV!!
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post #6136 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 10:33 PM
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For those of you who are interested the HD channel has a sweet 2 hour show entitled "The Shark Man". This really showed off the 5080's ability to render amazing black levels and fantastic detail. Check out this pic I took of a guy snorkling with Great White sharks circling below and no he did not have use a cage...




Or how about one circling above him!



~Life is short...that is why I spent two grand on a kick butt TV!!
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post #6137 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 10:34 PM
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I have my newly acquired 5080 running and it looks awesome thanks to D-nice's settings paired with the PS3.

I am trying to received some of the OTA HD channels for tomorrow's football games, I have Comcast cable going straight from the wall to the TV in ANT A but can't seem to see any of the HD channels. What am I doing wrong? I also tried to put in a Comcast cable card, which I am not sure is necessary, but the TV didn't seem to recognize it. Any help is appreciated.
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post #6138 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 11:02 PM
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Messed up pixels...

Are some models/production months more susceptible to having pixel problems or do pretty much all of them have a couple with issues?

Looks like I have a dead red pixel but it seems to be fine on the other colors and when I first got the TV last week I noticed another pixel that was stuck on some color but that seems to have worked itself out.

~Life is short...that is why I spent two grand on a kick butt TV!!
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post #6139 of 12878 Old 01-19-2008, 11:52 PM
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yep I also watch sharkman on my new 5080...amazing video, the way he put those sharks into tonic
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post #6140 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I understand what you're saying regarding Rec709 and I've never disputed that, but at least on my 150 the CS2 simply can not be adjusted for an accurate, consistent blue as one sees it with his/her eyes in the real world. I haven't noticed the 'mix of cyan' issue or too much green in some blues with CS1. On the other hand if it's this additive effect of green to some blues that is causing what I feel is an unquestionably more accurate (using real-life blues as oppoed to Rec709) CS1 sky blue, blue shirts etc., then perhaps I am seeing what you're discussing. I know it's not just my color perception since others I've shown it to can see it, as well as some other AVS posters. It's just such as odd effect.

As yet another data point, I was at Best Buy today testing a Sony HD digital camera (CX7) that records to memory stick. I brought the memory stick home and dumped the HD footage to DVD and then played it on the Panny BD30 BR player. The results once again showed the same error in blue with CS2 as evidenced by the blue shirts that BB employees wear appearing too magenta with CS2. CS1 was right on the mark with this color. To my eyes this is disturbing and makes me always return to CS1.

For whatever reason, with CS1's color down to -2 and red moved to +5 in the color management section, other colors to my eyes look virtually the same as CS2. So I honestly see no downside to CS1 when adjusted this way...at least on my 150. Now perhaps my 150 is out of whack in terms of its color decoder, but it sure looks amazingly accurate on CS1. Go figure.

When trying out DNice's settings which of course use CS2, the blue really looks off tremendously, but not for everything. That makes it puzzling. The BB commercial and DTV one clearly were too magenta/purple like, which is not at all accurate. Then in other scenes when they were showing an earth globe in a movie, it looked very accurate. CS1 does show the blue very well, but for some reason some colors don't look as strong; not bad though which makes me lean towards it. This is on a 150FD also. I am curious to see what DNice finds out with his investigation of Blue on CS2.
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post #6141 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by techwisenyc View Post

When trying out DNice's settings which of course use CS2, the blue really looks off tremendously, but not for everything. That makes it puzzling. The BB commercial and DTV one clearly were too magenta/purple like, which is not at all accurate. Then in other scenes when they were showing an earth globe in a movie, it looked very accurate. CS1 does show the blue very well, but for some reason some colors don't look as strong; not bad though which makes me lean towards it. This is on a 150FD also. I am curious to see what DNice finds out with his investigation of Blue on CS2.

The magenta cast of some blues with CS2 disappeared on my 110FD when it was ISFccc'd.
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post #6142 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I would not expect my settings to match anything for ISF Day/Night modes. It would be like taking my Pure mode settings and placing them in Standard or User mode. As far as saturation goes, it sounds as if your ISF modes were set to CS1.

Actually, I had ISF Night done with CS2 and ISF Day with CS1 in order to have a comparison available on HDTV. My room has controlled lighting and thus the Night/Day selection is not really necessary. However, I think the calibrator neglected to redo all the settings when he moved to Day from the Night mode: simply copied the settings over and adjusted the contrast and brightness! I will have him redo the Day mode completely as I think the over saturation (which is noticeable only in Day mode) is due to this oversight. The difference does not show up between Night/Day on my DVD input which was done only with CS1.
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post #6143 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwisenyc View Post

When trying out DNice's settings which of course use CS2, the blue really looks off tremendously, but not for everything. That makes it puzzling. The BB commercial and DTV one clearly were too magenta/purple like, which is not at all accurate. Then in other scenes when they were showing an earth globe in a movie, it looked very accurate. CS1 does show the blue very well, but for some reason some colors don't look as strong; not bad though which makes me lean towards it. This is on a 150FD also. I am curious to see what DNice finds out with his investigation of Blue on CS2.

I haven't heard of the BLUE situation being corrected on anyones set, until they got it IFC calibrated. Until you get this done, it's pretty much going to stay a mystery.
Go get those TV's IFC'ed CORRECTLY.

Mike
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post #6144 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 07:46 AM
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I just bought and hope to grow to love my new 5080. It came with manufacturers rec's on preventing burn in. For those of you who know, what are your recommendations PLEASE, i.e., settings. Im pretty damn good with pc's, but av intimidates me a bit. Thank you!
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post #6145 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by philipcb View Post

I just bought and hope to grow to love my new 5080. It came with manufacturers rec's on preventing burn in. For those of you who know, what are your recommendations PLEASE, i.e., settings. Im pretty damn good with pc's, but av intimidates me a bit. Thank you!

I am new as well but check out post #1 on this thread to help get you started. D-nice and many others on this forum are extremely knowledgeable so you came to the right place!

~Life is short...that is why I spent two grand on a kick butt TV!!
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post #6146 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdb View Post

This is so wrong, it's hard to even refute. The only thing I can say is I know a home theater enthusiast who is literally DEAF above 5,000Hz in both ears from ear infectons... and those infections left him with tinitus in both ears. Yet his hearing is INCREDIBLE within the range he can still hear. Doing a system calibration... he hears none of the calibration tones starting at about 5200Hz... even putting his ear right to the tweeter... nothing. Yet no nuance in the sound gets by him... unless he simply can't hear it at all. His ability to pick out differences in components, cables, and setup is uncanny. I think people have little appreciation for how good their hearing still is, even when they have "problems".

My bad; it was a poor attempt perhaps at humorous irony as regards all of the assertions that all plasmas buzz and many of us cannot hear it from our own sets and also that many like me with tinnitus spend way too much money as it is on HT audio yet I cannot entice Umr into responding to any of my attempts at hiring him, I can only assume it's apparently because my system that I've described to him does not inspire enough challenge. Oh well, I am hiring someone closer to home instead.

Russ (another one)
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post #6147 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

... The number of errors that can result in horrible sound are numerous and easy to make without a thorough and accurate test procedure. You would be stunned if you knew the half of it.

Jeff Meier of AccuCal yesterday calibrated my PRO-150FD, PS3 BD/DVD player, and audio system. Before his arrival my wife and I were completely satisfied with the picture quality and realized we likely had audio problems. The principle sound issue was I had to frequently adjust the volume up or down in order to hear/understand the dialog.

When Jeff was done with our gear, the picture quality was greatly improved - particularly with respect to image resolution or 'crispness' and quite importantly greater lightness and improved black resolution.

Indeed I had many audio problems which Jeff identified and corrected. One of my two left-right speakers was 180 out of phase, as was one of the two surrounds. Oh, and did I mention the sub-woofer also was? (I have since verified that in none of these cases had I reversed the wires to an individual speaker.)

My wife and I do not have the technical acumen (any more) to adequately detail the technical details of Jeff's efforts to this forum, but as a retired Senior Engineering Supervisor who has managed Engineering Facilities that included hundreds of technicians in many diverse areas, I do feel qualified to recognize a truly professional and competent technical craftsman!

My wife and I will not hesitate to highly recommend Jeff and AccuCal to any and all listeners. He has dramatically improved our viewing and listening experience. He is a highly articulate person that explained what he was doing and what the results of his efforts were.

Thank you Mr. Meire!

To Jeff's son, a recent West Point Grad (USMA 07), I still must say, "Go Navy, Beat Army!" (USNA 65)
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post #6148 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SaltiDawg View Post

...Thank you Mr. Meier!

To Jeff's son, a recent West Point Grad (USMA 07), I still must say, "Go Navy, Beat Army!" (USNA 65)

Thank you.

My son might react to your Navy comment though.
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post #6149 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 08:35 AM
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Just got my new 6010 setup and running, but I've got a bit of an issue.

When going via HDMI from my Comcast Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR directly to the 6010, I have my DVR set to output everything in its native format. But when I change the channel from a 1080i source to a 720p source (really when changing between any of the different native signals) about 75-90% of the time the screen will flicker and then give me all snow. If I change to another input and then back to the DVR input, the picture is back and displaying fine. This, of course, isn't exactly practical for my family as I watch alot of ESPN (720p) and go back an forth to the other channels which are mainly 1080i.

Sorry if this has already been addressed...but 206 pages is a lil' much to catch up on.

Advice?

Thanks!

XBOX - Hyperplasia | PS4 - Hyperplasia
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post #6150 of 12878 Old 01-20-2008, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SaltiDawg View Post

....Indeed I had many audio problems which Jeff identified and corrected. One of my two left-right speakers was 180 out of phase, as was one of the two surrounds. Oh, and did I mention the sub-woofer also was? (I have since verified that in none of these cases had I reversed the wires to an individual speaker.)...

That is just the tip of the iceberg of problems people are unaware of. The level of improvement available for audio in most systems whether HTIB or over $100,000 is enormous in almost all cases. The other sad fact is that all of the automatic systems do not solve all of the problems that I can fix.
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