The Official Pioneer 8G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 283 - AVS Forum
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post #8461 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Can you refresh my memory on your issue?

When using PC Advance with a 1080p/24 signal it is very choppy and when faces move they are somewhat blurred. I went to a local store to see the 150FD and it didn't have the issue but my 1150 does. I was starting to think that maybe the 720 natives might have this issue because eventhough it accepts a 1080p/24 signal maybe when it downconverts it is somehow messing up the 3:3 pulldown. Pioneer called me a week and a half ago to tell me the engineers were currently working on my issue and to give it until the end of the month and check back if I haven't heard from them yet.
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post #8462 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcfan View Post

When using PC Advance with a 1080p/24 signal it is very choppy and when faces move they are somewhat blurred. I went to a local store to see the 150FD and it didn't have the issue but my 1150 does. I was starting to think that maybe the 720 natives might have this issue because eventhough it accepts a 1080p/24 signal maybe when it downconverts it is somehow messing up the 3:3 pulldown. Pioneer called me a week and a half ago to tell me the engineers were currently working on my issue and to give it until the end of the month and check back if I haven't heard from them yet.

Can you please provide your equipment setup? I need models, brands, connections, material you've seen this with (all, some, one)....tiltes of the material, etc. Please be as detailed as possible.
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post #8463 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

Here's a quote from Scott Wilkinson reviewing the PRO-110FD over at Ultimate AV Mag:


http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpan...0fd/index.html

This confirms to me what I thought was the case, the Pure Cinema modes are just different de-interlacing modes for processing an interlaced signal.

Standard does the 3:2 detection and displays at 60hz.
Smooth interpolates frames to 60hz.(Not sure on that one)
Advanced extracts the original 24 frames from an interlaced signal and displays them at 72hz.

So I guess it's best to just turn off the Pure Cinema stuff before you send the panel a 1080p/24 signal or any progressive signal, the panel should display at 72HZ if you send it 1080p/24.

An excellent post that clarifies this issue. So the million $ question is: why doesn't Pioneer issue at least 1 firmware update to resolve any outstanding problems with their $8000 TVs? I guess they don't look for repeat customers.

BTW... w/BD 1080p24 source content what is the 36bit designation reported by the display option indicate?
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post #8464 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

This confirms to me what I thought was the case, the Pure Cinema modes are just different de-interlacing modes for processing an interlaced signal.

With all due respect, I don't think it confirms anything. D-Nice, who is obviously one of the most knowledgeable folks about the Pioneers, just stated that Pure Cinema has historically been used to extract 24fps from, among other resolutions, 1080p. Furthermore, the manual also lists Pure Cinema Advance as an acceptable mode for 1080p/24 sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

So I guess it's best to just turn off the Pure Cinema stuff before you send the panel a 1080p/24 signal or any progressive signal, the panel should display at 72HZ if you send it 1080p/24.

This is what I am seeking confirmation on.
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post #8465 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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A HDMI 1.3 to HDMI 1.3 connection initiates the "36 bit" display icon. It has nothing to do with the actual signal type (480p,720p, 1080i, etc).
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post #8466 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post

With all due respect, I don't think it confirms anything. D-Nice, who is obviously one of the most knowledgeable folks about the Pioneers, just stated that Pure Cinema has historically been used to extract 24fps from, among other resolutions, 1080p. Furthermore, the manual also lists Pure Cinema Advance as an acceptable mode for 1080p/24 sources.

Well, I don't much about Pioneer's plasmas before the Kuro models, but in the manual for the Kuros I believe it says that the Pure Cinema modes wont work with progressive signals such as 480p, 720p or 1080p/60. To me this suggest that these modes are meant for film based material that has been interlaced and sent at 480i or 1080i.

Again, I'm no expert, thats just what I take away from it all. I'm sure D-Nice and others know a hell of a lot more then me.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #8467 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post


This confirms to me what I thought was the case, the Pure Cinema modes are just different de-interlacing modes for processing an interlaced signal.

Standard does the 3:2 detection and displays at 60hz.
Smooth interpolates frames to 60hz.(Not sure on that one)
Advanced extracts the original 24 frames from an interlaced signal and displays them at 72hz.

So I guess it's best to just turn off the Pure Cinema stuff before you send the panel a 1080p/24 signal or any progressive signal, the panel should display at 72HZ if you send it 1080p/24.

So what's the general consensus on this at this point? I have a Samsung BD-UP5000 set to 1080p/24, a TiVo S3 set to 1080i, and an Xbox 360 set to 1080p. All components are going through an Onkyo 805 AVR, so they're all using a single HDMI input on the 5010. I don't want to change the Pure Cinema setting every time I change sources. If I just want to set it to one setting and forget it, which setting should I use? Standard? Off?
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post #8468 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

Well, I don't much about Pioneer's plasmas before the Kuro models, but in the manual for the Kuros I believe it says that the Pure Cinema modes wont work with progressive signals such as 480p, 720p or 1080p/60. To me this suggest that these modes are meant for film based material that has been interlaced and sent at 480i or 1080i.

Again, I'm no expert, thats just what I take away from it all. I'm sure D-Nice and others know a hell of a lot more then me.

You need to re-read the manual again
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post #8469 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You need to re-read the manual again

DOH

Patience has its rewards.
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post #8470 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

A HDMI 1.3 to HDMI 1.3 connection initiates the "36 bit" display icon. It has nothing to do with the actual signal type (480p,720p, 1080i, etc).

According to Toshiba's manual, the HD-A35 disables Deep Color output when sending 1080p/24. When I send 1080p/24 to the 5080, it displays "1080p" without the "36-bit" text. When I send other resolutions1080i, 1080p/60 the 5080 displays "1080p" with the "36-bit" text. I am not suggesting that the HD-A35 is actually outputting 36-bit color, because as far as I know, there are no such sources yet available. Is there something in the digital signal that HDMI carries that would allow an HDMI 1.3 connection to "advertise" itself as HDMI 1.1?
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post #8471 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:42 PM
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After noticing judder alot on the 5080 and trying every freaking combonation possible with my PS3 and Kuro, Ive come to realize that smooth mode reduces judder most (though it does create artifacts from time to time) when the PS3 is not forcing 24p. Im using auto for the 24p setting on the PS3, 1080p, and smooth mode and in my eyes, this is the best setting for me. I cant stand judder, or the way some put it, choppiness.
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post #8472 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post

With all due respect, I don't think it confirms anything. D-Nice, who is obviously one of the most knowledgeable folks about the Pioneers, just stated that Pure Cinema has historically been used to extract 24fps from, among other resolutions, 1080p. Furthermore, the manual also lists Pure Cinema Advance as an acceptable mode for 1080p/24 sources.



This is what I am seeking confirmation on.

New Pure Cinema Smooth Film Motion mode to eliminate motion jutter in 3:2 Pulldown (60Hz) providing natural even playback of content created on film

New 4 Independent HDMI 1.3 inputs with HDMI-CEC control and the ability to accept 1080p 24/60Hz signal

Advanced PureCinema with 3:3 Pulldown (72Hz) for accurate playback of film content


source: PRO-150FD Product Brochure
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post #8473 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Advanced PureCinema with 3:3 Pulldown (72Hz) for accurate playback of film content[/b]

source: PRO-150FD Product Brochure

I am familiar with what the literature says. However, the reviewer quoted earlier in the thread notes that a Pioneer rep told him that the Pure Cinema modes should not be engageable on non-interlaced content. In this respect, the reviewer states the Pure Cinema modes are buggy. But wait: the manual states that *some* Pure Cinema modes will work with some progressive sources.

D-Nice has also stated that "something 'broke'" in the 8G implementation of Pure Cinema. So, regardless of what the manual says, I am trying to determine the precise nature of the problem.

1) What is broken in the 8G implementation of the Pure Cinema modes?

1a) Is the problem fixable with a firmware update?

2) Is Advance mode *intended* to be used *only* when extracting 24 fps from *interlaced* sources? If so, why does the manual state otherwise?

3) If so, why does my 5080HD appear to unacceptably dim and brighten when Advance is engaged on film-based 1080i content?

4) How does the 5080HD display 1080p/24 content when I turn Pure Cinema to Off? Does it detect 24 fps when Pure Cinema is Off and automatically engage its 72 Hz refresh rate, as some claim to be true? If it does not automatically detect 72 Hz content when Pure Cinema is Off, how does it display the content at 60 Hz? Shouldn't it have to do some sort of processing of the 24 fps source to display the content?
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post #8474 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 02:36 PM
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Hi All,

As far as I could tell the Adv setting in the Pure Cinema mode has always been broken. Try looking at the left to right pan of the opening sequence of Star Trek: Insurrection. The buildings will shake like a leaf in the Adv mode. Standard is the only way to go.
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post #8475 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I think their problem is the Samsung 1200. I have that and a XA2 HD DVD player connected to my 1150. The Samsung is very flaky with 1080p/24. The XA2 outputs 1080p/24 flawlessly.

I think you are correct D Nice..... Here is what I responded to HDPeet on the other thread (he posted the same question.)

"I was just about to make the same exact posting as you did HDPeet.....

I was always under the impression, as most here, that when sending a 1080p/24 signal from a player, that Pure Cinema was to be on advanced to take advantage of the 72Hz capability of this set. It seems to me that the Samsung 1200 he was using for this review, was not set up to output the 1080p 24. I say this because using my own Samsung 1400, the same thing happened to me. When I looked at the TV's film-mode (deinterlace) setting, all options except Off were grayed out, yet the Advance setting appeared to be selected with a dot next to it. I than checked to see if my 1400 was set properly.... and it wasn't, it was on 1080P 60hz, which according to Pioneer (manual) it will grey out all those Advanced Cinema settings. (see below)

Standard is not selectable for the following input signals:
480p, 720p@60 Hz, 1080p@60 Hz.
Smooth is not selectable for the following input signals:
1080p@60 Hz.
Advance is not selectable for the following input signals:
1080p@60 Hz.


I believe the reviewer made a mistake here, he had his 1200 at 1080P 60hz which is the "common denominator" for all modes to be greyd out. I know this for sure, because when I send a 1080P/24 from my 1400 to the set, all of the Cinema modes are active (nothing greyed out).

Any thoughts guys?

Paul
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post #8476 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 02:53 PM
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Just a note, I think some people are still confusing judder with just regular 24fps motion of pans.

Motion with 24fps is not going to be smooth. It is what I call "choppy"
But "judder" is an effect sometimes from convering 24fps to the TVs display of 60 through 3:2. I think this is easily explained and seen in the simplest form from scrolling text "jumping" sometimes. Which "TEXT OPTIMIZATION" gets rid of by removing the 3:2 from the lower half of the creen.

they are different things.

smooth mode gets rid of "choppiness" of motion inherent in 24fps filming. It's like a cartoon or flipbook but with only a few pages so you "miss" some of the motion inbetween some of the drawings.
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post #8477 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwock5 View Post

Just a note, I think some people are still confusing judder with just regular 24fps motion of pans..

This is what's known as framerate judder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwock5 View Post

But "judder" is an effect sometimes from convering 24fps to the TVs display of 60 through 3:2. I think this is easily explained and seen in the simplest form from scrolling text "jumping" sometimes.

This is called telecine judder.

Displaying film at 72hz should get rid of the latter, but does nothing for the former. Many won't see much difference either way.
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post #8478 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

I believe the reviewer made a mistake here, he had his 1200 at 1080P 60hz which is the "common denominator" for all modes to be greyd out. I know this for sure, because when I send a 1080P/24 from my 1400 to the set, all of the Cinema modes are active (nothing greyed out).

Nice catch. Do you know if the 1200 disables "Deep Color support" when outputting 1080p/24? As I noted above, the HD-A35 does. If the 1200 does as well, then we could probably confirm a mistake by the reviewer: my 5080 displays the text "1080p 36-bit" when the HD-A35 sends 1080p/60, but only displays "1080p" when the HD-A35 sends 1080p/24.
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post #8479 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Can you please provide your equipment setup? I need models, brands, connections, material you've seen this with (all, some, one)....tiltes of the material, etc. Please be as detailed as possible.

Ok here we go

My original setup was the 1150, Denon 3808, BD30, A35 using the 3808 as a pass through. I am using 28awg 1.3 monoprice cables. I used to have a Samsung 5084 display and the 1150 was the only thing I switched and started to notice the motion problems so I assumed that was the problem source.

I notice it on all HD and BD disks but some have more noticeable scenes such as 3:10 and No Country an example would be when panning over mountains, the mountains would be really bad when using 1080p/24 advance making it hurt my eyes to focus on the movie. Also in the scene where Bale's character in 3:10 comes up to Crowes character for the first time the motion of him riding the horse looks very animated like it was sped up on 1080p/24 but on 1080i it is fine. If I used 1080i with Standard it was a lot better and what I am used to seeing.

So before I wanted to say it was the display I hooked up the BD30 and A35 to the display directly to the display to take the receiver out of the equation, same result. I then tested each component with all of my hdmi cables to rule out any bad cables, same result.

My final test was maybe there was a handshaking problem between the Pioneer, Denon and Panasonic and it wasn't able to lock into the proper cadence. I bought the Elite 94 receiver and the Elite 95 BD player to have all Pioneer components connected to eachother, same result. So now that by even using all Pioneer components and it still exists, I put the problem on the display. I ended up keeping the 94 receiver because I liked the sound over the Denon so the testing wasn't all for not.

This is when I contacted Pioneer to tell them basically everything I just told you. I went to my local Tweeter and watched a 150Fd witha 95 BD player hooked up to it and I turned PC Advance on and it had nothing like I am seeing and the motion was perfect. This brings me to my theory that maybe it is an issue with the native 720 displays not the 1080p's. Perhaps when the 1150 takes in a 1080/24 signal and downconverts it to 720(768) the information is somehow corrupted for the 3:3 pulldown and it is showing at a non-multiple of 24 and not even 60 causing the motion problems.

So this is what I am waiting to hear Pioneers response from. I believe they are really working on it because the CS person contacted me twice to tell me the engineers are working on it and to give specific scenes on BD where I notice the problems.

If possible if it is a 720 display issue I would like to upgrade to a 1080p model since the one I saw did not have the issue but that might not fix it and they might not allow it. I know just swapping it out for another 1150 will not fix it. If the 9G's really have it fix then it would be great for them to allow me to upgrade somehow but I don't have proof that the 9G are fixed except your word.

Thanks for your time with this and let me know if you have any other questions for me.
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post #8480 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

...I believe the reviewer made a mistake here, he had his 1200 at 1080P 60hz which is the "common denominator" for all modes to be greyd out. I know this for sure, because when I send a 1080P/24 from my 1400 to the set, all of the Cinema modes are active (nothing greyed out).

Any thoughts guys?

Paul

Agreed. He may have checked the output when the splash screen was up (player stopped or with no disc) instead of when a disc is playing. I don't know about Samsung, but my Panasonic sends the splash screen at 1080p/60, and my 5080 dims all the Pure Cimema modes. They become available when the disc is playing or paused.
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post #8481 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 04:53 PM
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I have read many of these threads; but am confused. I am buying a Pioneer KURO Elite PRO-150FD 60" TV. I have to have SAT (Direct TV). 3 Questions:

1) I need a new Receiver. Do I need a better upscale receiver than the Pioneer 94TXH or is it best to have the 150F upscale the Direct TV (DTV) signal?
2) and what would the connection be?:
A) DTV to Receiver (via what cables) and then to 150FD via HDMI cable, or
B) DTV directly to 150FD via HDMI
3) If a Sony KDL40XBR5 (also 1080P like the FD150) is the second TV, would it be the same answer or better to have a different receiver rather than using the Sony to upscale the DTV?

Many thanks for thoughts.
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post #8482 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcfan View Post

Ok here we go

My original setup was the 1150, Denon 3808, BD30, A35 using the 3808 as a pass through. I am using 28awg 1.3 monoprice cables. I used to have a Samsung 5084 display and the 1150 was the only thing I switched and started to notice the motion problems so I assumed that was the problem source.

Wow I have the exact same HW: 1150HD, Denon 3808, BD30, A35 and monoprice cables. I notice a lot of judder/jerking during panning on many movies. I use the advanced cinema mode as well and display in 1080P/24 mode.

I didn't fully catch your problem...can you describe it more? Maybe it's the same thing I'm seeing.
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post #8483 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Wow I have the exact same HW: 1150HD, Denon 3808, BD30, A35 and monoprice cables. I notice a lot of judder/jerking during panning on many movies. I use the advanced cinema mode as well and display in 1080P/24 mode.

I didn't fully catch your problem...can you describe it more? Maybe it's the same thing I'm seeing.

Well I had that set up. I replaced the 3808 with the Pioneer 94txh. I sent you a PM regarding everything else.
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post #8484 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

I would recommend you leave it on Standard.


Thanks I found that other thread about it and read through it. Sorry I posted it without noticing, but appreciate the answer. I brought it up after reading the review this morning and then got thinking. that's what I did though. At least I read al right then. . . .

So am I right when I play a 1080p24 hd then it should auto to adv and then I will not have to change from standard on my own?
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post #8485 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

Thanks I found that other thread about it and read through it. Sorry I posted it without noticing, but appreciate the answer. I brought it up after reading the review this morning and then got thinking. that's what I did though. At least I read al right then. . . .

So am I right when I play a 1080p24 hd then it should auto to adv and then I will not have to change from standard on my own?

No you still need to change it from Standard. The theory is that when you have PC off and you use a 1080p/24 signal, PC automatically puts it in 72hz (Advance mode) even with it set to off.
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post #8486 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcfan View Post

Ok here we go

My original setup was the 1150, Denon 3808, BD30, A35 using the 3808 as a pass through. I am using 28awg 1.3 monoprice cables. I used to have a Samsung 5084 display and the 1150 was the only thing I switched and started to notice the motion problems so I assumed that was the problem source.

I notice it on all HD and BD disks but some have more noticeable scenes such as 3:10 and No Country an example would be when panning over mountains, the mountains would be really bad when using 1080p/24 advance making it hurt my eyes to focus on the movie. Also in the scene where Bale's character in 3:10 comes up to Crowes character for the first time the motion of him riding the horse looks very animated like it was sped up on 1080p/24 but on 1080i it is fine. If I used 1080i with Standard it was a lot better and what I am used to seeing.

So before I wanted to say it was the display I hooked up the BD30 and A35 to the display directly to the display to take the receiver out of the equation, same result. I then tested each component with all of my hdmi cables to rule out any bad cables, same result.

My final test was maybe there was a handshaking problem between the Pioneer, Denon and Panasonic and it wasn't able to lock into the proper cadence. I bought the Elite 94 receiver and the Elite 95 BD player to have all Pioneer components connected to eachother, same result. So now that by even using all Pioneer components and it still exists, I put the problem on the display. I ended up keeping the 94 receiver because I liked the sound over the Denon so the testing wasn't all for not.

This is when I contacted Pioneer to tell them basically everything I just told you. I went to my local Tweeter and watched a 150Fd witha 95 BD player hooked up to it and I turned PC Advance on and it had nothing like I am seeing and the motion was perfect. This brings me to my theory that maybe it is an issue with the native 720 displays not the 1080p's. Perhaps when the 1150 takes in a 1080/24 signal and downconverts it to 720(768) the information is somehow corrupted for the 3:3 pulldown and it is showing at a non-multiple of 24 and not even 60 causing the motion problems.

So this is what I am waiting to hear Pioneers response from. I believe they are really working on it because the CS person contacted me twice to tell me the engineers are working on it and to give specific scenes on BD where I notice the problems.

If possible if it is a 720 display issue I would like to upgrade to a 1080p model since the one I saw did not have the issue but that might not fix it and they might not allow it. I know just swapping it out for another 1150 will not fix it. If the 9G's really have it fix then it would be great for them to allow me to upgrade somehow but I don't have proof that the 9G are fixed except your word.

Thanks for your time with this and let me know if you have any other questions for me.

I've never seen these issues with my 1150 and the movies you stated. What firmware version do you have with your A35?
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post #8487 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dmcfan View Post

No you still need to change it from Standard. The theory is that when you have PC off and you use a 1080p/24 signal, PC automatically puts it in 72hz (Advance mode) even with it set to off.

This is false.
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post #8488 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:53 PM
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Right. Then you have a tech from Pioneer (according to article posted above) that is in disagreement with the Owner's Manual.

Confused indeed.

I've got a Tosh A35 set to output HDDVDs at 1080P/24 via HDMI.
I've got a Pio 150FD set to PureCinema = Advance.

I haven't noticed any judder (but doesn't mean it doesn't exist). Also, I have not performed A/B comparisons with the other PureCinema options (Starndard, Off, etc.). If I can get home early, I'll try this tonight.

OK, here's what I did:

The settings on the Toshiba and Pioneer are as listed in the quote above.
The HDDVD version of '300' and the beginning of chapter 7 has a pan to the left that I used for comparisons. The scene occurs after Leonidus says, "Is this all of them?" His captain says, "Three hundred, just as you ordered." Then the pan to the left....

PureCinema set to 'Advanced' appeared to produce the same results as when set to 'Off', ironically enough. When set to 'Standard', jerkiness or bluriness became a little more apparent but only under scrutiny. The 'Smooth' setting was quite the contrary. In fact, when set to Smooth, judder becomes VERY noticeable. For anyone wanthing to know what judder is, take a look at this scene with these settings.

Although switching from 'Advanced' to 'Off' seem to produce the same results, I did, however, notice that the faint buzzing becomes even lower in frequency. That is, it becomes less audible but still there.
Needless to say, I am now using the 'Off' PureCinema mode for viewing on my Pro 150FD.

I hope others can reproduce this or come up with other tests to confirm until we hear more from Pioneer.
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post #8489 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I've never seen these issues with my 1150 and the movies you stated. What firmware version do you have with your A35?

I stayed with 1.3 because of the issues people have with 1080p/24 with 2.0 and on the BD30 I have 1.6
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post #8490 of 12888 Old 03-18-2008, 06:01 PM
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This is false.

I guess I should have said it was a theory. I believe you said if it is off PC can't determine between video and film. Is that correct? Another question I have for you that no one has been able to answer is why does the light output change when using advance? Is that one of the bugs?
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