Does 1080p make much of a difference on a Pioneer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 07-05-2007, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I am really having a hard time choosing TVs. I think I'm going to go with plasma, and I think I'm going to go with Pioneer. The big question is will 1080p make that much of a difference. I know there have been a million threads on this subject, but I dont' think Pioneer supports 1080i. Is the difference between 1080i and 720p big? I want to get the best experience, but even though I'm Mr. Moneybags, I have a low budget. I plan to spend tops $2,500 excluding taxes and shipping and etc. I can find the Pioneer PDP-5080HD for a price within my budget. As I said before, I can price match it with Circuit City or Best Buy and get the financing deal for I live in the New York metro area which is where all of the street TV stores are. I just want to know if the picture on the new Pioneer 1080p models are going to be any better than the current Pioneer 50" models. I think it's pointless to go with the Elite, so I'm either going with the 5080, or going with the new 50" non-Elite 1080p model (I believe it's the 5010, but I"m not sure). I read on a site that the 2007 Pioneer lineup has some TVs that have a 20,000:1 contrast ratio. Does the 5080 have a 20,000:1 contrast ratio? If it doesn't, does the 1080p 50" have the 20,000:1 contrast ratio? I just want to get the best picture out without having to spend a fortune. I'm 15, and my dad is not a big TV watcher, so he thinks $3,000 is outrageous, which is probably what the new 1080p non-Elite TV is going to cost on the street. It's very frustrating to me because my family has some money, yet my dad is not willing to spend $3,000 on a TV when we can afford to buy a $10,000 TV. It's not like it's out of bounds, a $3,000-$3,500 TV, just I need help convincing my dad to get the 50" 1080p from Pioneer. He thinks the Panasonic suits us just as well, but I've read that the Pioneer is the best by a longshot. He wants 1080p, which means he wants the best, but it's weird that he wants the best in resolution, which isn't as important as picture quality :-/. Is the Panasonic just as good as the Pioneer in ALL aspects? Is the Panasonic better in any aspect? Would it be worth it to spend around $3,000-$3,500 on the Pioneer 1080p? If you guys could give me good reaons (if any) that the Pioneer 1080p will be the best plasma, then maybe I can tell my dad what you guys told me, which may convince him to consider purchasing the 1080p model.

PS I ordered an HD reciever from Directv which should be coming on Monday, so patience may be a problem. I don't want to wait for SED TVs or stuff that's coming out past September (which is when the Pioneer 1080p is supposed to come out, which may in fact come out early like the 5080). All good reasons to purchase a Pioneer would be greatly appreciated :-)
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post #2 of 19 Old 07-05-2007, 08:05 PM
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I think you have some facts confused. You say that the Pioneer can not do 1080i....

Keep in mind resolution comes into factor at two points, the source and the display. The Pioneer 5080hd can take 1080i, 720p, and 1080p sources and then converts it to 768. That's where the resolution from source comes into play. Yes using a 1080p source on any display will gain because the quality of input is one of the most important factors for picture quality. (Garbage in = garbage out).

The real part of your question is related to 1080p at the display side. Do you buy the 5080hd, which is 768 or wait for the new 1080p units. When asking about resolution from the display side, there's 3 parts to the question. Resolution, size, and viewing distance. In order to benefit from full 1080p display, you must have a big enough display and sit close enough. To benefit from 1080p on a 50" display you need to sit 6' to 7' away to get the full benefits of 1080p. if you sit farther then 9' then there is no point spending extra money for 1080p on a 50".

So the real question, since you've seem to have settled on the 50", is how far would you be sitting from the screen. If you are sitting 8' away or farther, you probably don't want to bother with 1080p. If you are sitting closer, then yes go with 1080p.

Eitherway, you would still benefit from 1080p sources like HD-DVD and BlueRay.

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post #3 of 19 Old 07-05-2007, 08:10 PM
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Whoa...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moneybags View Post

Ok, I am really having a hard time choosing TVs. I think I'm going to go with plasma, and I think I'm going to go with Pioneer. The big question is will 1080p make that much of a difference. I know there have been a million threads on this subject, but I dont' think Pioneer supports 1080i.

Pioneer supports 1080i.

Quote:


Is the difference between 1080i and 720p big? I want to get the best experience, but even though I'm Mr. Moneybags, I have a low budget. I plan to spend tops $2,500 excluding taxes and shipping and etc. I can find the Pioneer PDP-5080HD for $****, which is a heck of a deal.

You should edit out the exact price before one of the mods do it for you. Probably enough to say you can find the 5080 within your budget.

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As I said before, I can price match it with Circuit City or Best Buy and get the financing deal for I live in the New York metro area which is where all of the street TV stores are. I just want to know if the picture on the new Pioneer 1080p models are going to be any better than the current Pioneer 50" models. I think it's pointless to go with the Elite, so I'm either going with the 5080, or going with the new 50" non-Elite 1080p model (I believe it's the 5010, but I"m not sure). I read on a site that the 2007 Pioneer lineup has some TVs that have a 20,000:1 contrast ratio. Does the 5080 have a 20,000:1 contrast ratio? If it doesn't, does the 1080p 50" have the 20,000:1 contrast ratio?

5080 doesn't have a 20,000:1 contrast ratio; the 5010 does. Both are plenty black enough for most people's TV watching needs.

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I just want to get the best picture out without having to spend a fortune. I'm 15, and my dad is not a big TV watcher, so he thinks $3,000 is outrageous, which is probably what the new 1080p non-Elite TV is going to cost on the street. It's very frustrating to me because my family has some money, yet my dad is not willing to spend $3,000 on a TV when we can afford to buy a $10,000 TV.

You're 15 and shopping for a $2,500 TV? High class problem, IMHO.

Quote:


It's not like it's out of bounds, a $3,000-$3,500 TV, just I need help convincing my dad to get the 50" 1080p from Pioneer. He thinks the Panasonic suits us just as well, but I've read that the Pioneer is the best by a longshot. He wants 1080p, which means he wants the best, but it's weird that he wants the best in resolution, which isn't as important as picture quality :-/. Is the Panasonic just as good as the Pioneer in ALL aspects? Is the Panasonic better in any aspect? Would it be worth it to spend around $3,000-$3,500 on the Pioneer 1080p? If you guys could give me good reaons (if any) that the Pioneer 1080p will be the best plasma, then maybe I can tell my dad what you guys told me, which may convince him to consider purchasing the 1080p model.

PS I ordered an HD reciever from Directv which should be coming on Monday, so patience may be a problem. I don't want to wait for SED TVs or stuff that's coming out past September (which is when the Pioneer 1080p is supposed to come out, which may in fact come out early like the 5080). All good reasons to purchase a Pioneer would be greatly appreciated :-)

That's all I've got. Plenty of threads out there toting the virtues of both the new Pioneers and Panasonics. Both are good sets.
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post #4 of 19 Old 07-05-2007, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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do any of you guys know what contrast ratio the 5080 has? My dad cares about picture quality, though he doesn't. It's weird as I said before. It's like he wants the best of the best, but doesn't want to spend a $3,500 on a Pioneer. It's frustrating.

PS: I'm not buying the TV, my dad is. I'm just researching it for him, and trying to give him the best choice. I could be totally unreasonable by going for a 65" Panasonic 1080p plasma (TH-65PX600U), but I know my limits. Besides, we can only fit a 50" or 52" TV in our living room. The 1080p Pioneer is pushing the limits just a bit. I may be able to pull off getting the Pioneer, but it would be tough, and take a LOT of convincing.
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post #5 of 19 Old 07-05-2007, 09:37 PM
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Like I said in my post, 1080p depends on how far you will sit. As for CR for the 5080, it's 16,000 to 1, while the Elites are 20,000 to 1.

If you really want the best, then you should be looking at the Pio Elite lines, that will give you the best possible picture, unrelated to resolution.

Russ
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post #6 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russwong View Post

Like I said in my post, 1080p depends on how far you will sit. As for CR for the 5080, it's 16,000 to 1, while the Elites are 20,000 to 1.

If you really want the best, then you should be looking at the Pio Elite lines, that will give you the best possible picture, unrelated to resolution.

Russ

I am sure it has nothing to do with Elite Russ. The 1080p models have 20,000:1 contrast ratio (elite or non-elite) The 768p ones have a 16,000:1 contrast ratio... er elite or non-elite.

If you're on a budget, I say go with the 5080 if you're really picky about picture quality. The contrast is truly amazing. Sure, an Elite 50 1080p or a 60 would be best... but it's gonna hurt the wallet.

I'm struggling w/ the same decision buddy.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #7 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:12 AM
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Maybe I relate too much to your Dad, but he may not want to overspend for something like a TV because he is thinking ahead to things like your upcoming college education.

I'm another who is torn between sets, although in my case it's between the Panasonic 1080 PZ700/750 and the Pioneer 5080/1150. (The other posters so far are very pro-Pioneer.) If your Dad really wants 1080 and has established a fairly firm budgetary limit, the Panasonic PZ700/750 is a great option. Their blacks won't match the Pioneers, but they are excellent sets nonetheless. The 1080 Pioneers may cost less than currently proposed when they finally arrive, but they will remain more costly than the Panasonics and well above your stated budget.

Everything that has been posted so far regarding distance vs resolution is great advice, but if someone has an emotional attachment to an idea, it's hard to persuade them to do something else, and they may never be happy if they do. While most of us here tend to downgrade resolution compared to contrast (although no one shoud get hung up on published contrast ratios), in both cases there is a juggling act. When is the point of diminishing returns reached? Different people will reach different conclusions.

Considering that the Panasonic 700's and Pioneer 5080's sell at comparable price points, it's largely a matter of contrast vs resolution, and proponents of either will argue that the other is beyond that point of diminishing returns on the virtue they value less. This is a value judgement, and because one side or the other shouts that they have found the "true religion" doesn't mean they have... at least for anyone other than themselves.

But you didn't want to hear about trade offs. You want to hear why Pioneer is better. I have a budget similar to yours and here are some reasons why I'm leaning toward the Pioneer vs the Panasonic:

Blacks are decidedly superior to any other brand (far better than in a movie theatre, in fact, but then so are Panasonic's, albeit to a lesser degree).

Better video processing. Most people won't notice, but a videophile will see a large number of subtle improvement that result in improved picture quality.

Convenience factors. 4 HDMI inputs vs 2/3. Removable speakers (I never use the built-in ones). A two inch narrower panel width. (I have space constrains, and it sounds like you might, too.)

Cachet. Okay, not really important to me, but it is to some. Like a Lexus, the Pioneer oozes quality and luxury. Panasonic is more a Toyota; solid, dependable, good quality, great value but not necessarily as blood stirring. (If your Dad doesn't drive a luxury car, forget this one. )

But if your Dad decides to go with the Panasonic, don't be too disappointed. It's top notch. (Check out the raves by independent reviewers.) And you'll be able to buy your Pioneer in a few years when you are on your own. They'll be even better then. Probably cheaper, too.
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post #8 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

I am sure it has nothing to do with Elite Russ. The 1080p models have 20,000:1 contrast ratio (elite or non-elite) The 768p ones have a 16,000:1 contrast ratio... er elite or non-elite.

If you're on a budget, I say go with the 5080 if you're really picky about picture quality. The contrast is truly amazing. Sure, an Elite 50 1080p or a 60 would be best... but it's gonna hurt the wallet.

I'm struggling w/ the same decision buddy.


Ooops you are absolutely right. 1080p is 20,000 to 1 and non-1080p are 16,000 to 1. My mind fell asleep on me for a minute there..
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post #9 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moneybags View Post

I want to get the best experience, but even though I'm Mr. Moneybags, I have a low budget.

I'm 15, and my dad is not a big TV watcher, so he thinks $3,000 is outrageous, which is probably what the new 1080p non-Elite TV is going to cost on the street. It's very frustrating to me because my family has some money, yet my dad is not willing to spend $3,000 on a TV when we can afford to buy a $10,000 TV.

Wow, those two statements don't jibe. Gee whiz, it must be really frustrating that your dad can afford $10,000 for a TV but he doesn't want to blow his money buying his 15-year-old son a 1080p plasma. Really, we're all crying over here.

Anyway, not to be old fashioned, but you know how to convince your dad to spend more money on a TV? GET A FREAKING JOB and help pay for it instead of spending your dad's hard-earned money for him!!

If you go to your dad and say, "how much are you willing to spend on a TV?" and then offer to get a job and chip in XXX amount of dollars to pay the difference between what he wants to spend and what you want, not only will he be pretty impressed and more likely to hook you up, but you will get some valuable life lessons that you pretty obviously need.

For example, he says "I'm willing to spend $2500 max". You figure the TV you want will cost $3200 all told. Offer to do chores or get a job or whatever and pay him $50 a month for the next 14 months. You'll both be better for it.

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post #10 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Macfan, that was exactly what I was looking for :-)
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post #11 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Wow, those two statements don't jibe.

Anyway, not to be old fashioned, but you know how to convince your dad to spend more money on a TV? GET A FREAKING JOB and help pay for it instead of spending your dad's hard-earned money for him!!

If you go to your dad and say, "how much are you willing to spend on a TV?" and then offer to get a job and chip in XXX amount of dollars to pay the difference between what he wants to spend and what you want, not only will he be pretty impressed and more likely to hook you up, but you will get some valuable life lessons that you pretty obviously need.

For example, he says "I'm willing to spend $2500 max". You figure the TV you want will cost $3200 all told. Offer to do chores or get a job or whatever and pay him $50 a month for the next 14 months. You'll both be better for it.

You don't think I"m trying to get a job? About 3 days ago, I went looking all around my area looking for a job with no success. I can't drive. I'm 15 turning 16 in a month so options for jobs are very limited. I'm getting $575 from a friend, and then hopefully $200+ for my birthday. I will probably help pay my dad with the money I'm getting, but my dad wants the TV within a month or two. Hopefully he'll wait until September, and then I'll help him pay for the Pioneer TV.
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post #12 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:36 AM
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Have him take a look at the Pioneer 5080, Panasonic 1080 PZ700/750, Pioneer's last year's 5070, or the elite line last year 1140 in a 50". I am like some of the other's in here and a little like your dad. I will wait and see the new 1080p Pioneer's when they come out. You have to pay the price on the front end. So all the new Pioneer's will be expensive. I will wait and see if it is worth it and if not, i'll just get a 5080 or last years model elite and if the 1080p sets are all that and better, i might break down and get the elite 1080p set.

This is off topic but i will throw this in. I was on the lake yesterday and stopped off at a dock on the water and went inside for something to drink and eat. As we sat down and watched the weather on tv, it was a beautiful picture showing. I am not sure if the weather channel is hd or sd but the pic was really nice. It was a LG 42" plasma and on dish sat.

So it just takes me back and shows me with any of the above plasma's or even less names and less sizes and not 1080p, looks very nice to me. I was sitting about 5 feet from this plasma. So any of those choices these guys have given you and if you get 1080p or not, i feel you will love any of the above.
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post #13 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 10:41 AM
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I'm torn between how well the Panny 50PX600U compares to the 700U, but then if I get 700U why not get the super duper Pioneer 5080. Are these sets really worth the extra grand?

Sitting about 9' back makes 1080p appear to be a pointless necessity. The better blacks and higher quality of the 5080 over the 600u is that really worth a grand extra?

I have researched and read myself into a corner. I think in the end my wife isn't going to allow that extra grand to be available, so 600u seems like the decision as of now. Then you think well maybe i'll be missing out on all that great true HD content (blue ray) and "future proofing" with the 700u at 1080p etc. This is crazy, can't these tv's just be cheaper so the decision would feel less monumental.

I really just want my Saints football to be on a sweet 50" plasma in all of its original broadcast quality come opening day. Will the HD signal be 720p or 1080i? Perhaps 768 is a happy middle ground. This is pretty stressful!
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post #14 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moneybags View Post

You don't think I"m trying to get a job? About 3 days ago, I went looking all around my area looking for a job with no success. I can't drive. I'm 15 turning 16 in a month so options for jobs are very limited. I'm getting $575 from a friend, and then hopefully $200+ for my birthday. I will probably help pay my dad with the money I'm getting, but my dad wants the TV within a month or two. Hopefully he'll wait until September, and then I'll help him pay for the Pioneer TV.

I respect that you're chipping in your own money and trying to get a job -- apologies for assuming you weren't. That makes your situation more sympathetic. You can see how it comes off bad posting in a public forum that you're 15 and trying to convince your dad to spend $3000+ because you want 1080p.

Anyway, others are right in that you are paying a big first-adopter penalty by waiting and getting the new-greatest-thing (the pio 1080p) the second it comes out. You'll get a lot more bang for your buck getting a really nice model that's already out or being clearing out from last year, like a 5080 or an elite 1140 from last year, or even a 58px600u if you'd rather spend the money on size.

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post #15 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moneybags View Post

I'm getting $575 from a friend...

Did you win a bet? What 15-year-olds pass around ~$600 between themselves??

Quote:


....and then hopefully $200+ for my birthday. I will probably help pay my dad with the money I'm getting, but my dad wants the TV within a month or two. Hopefully he'll wait until September, and then I'll help him pay for the Pioneer TV.

Here's another thought. You're 15 and too young to get most jobs. Why don't you get an older, smaller HDTV for $800? I'm pretty sure that more than most 15-year-olds can say they got with their own money.

Maybe I'm being too harsh; it's been more than 10 years since I was 15. To be clear, are you trying to convince your dad to buy a nicer family TV (because he's going to buy one anyway) or is this actually going to be _your_ TV? Am I just behind the times in thinking that how to spend $2500 on a TV is not the average 15-year-old's problem?

That said, I really liked McFan's post.
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post #16 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I respect that you're chipping in your own money and trying to get a job -- apologies for assuming you weren't. That makes your situation more sympathetic. You can see how it comes off bad posting in a public forum that you're 15 and trying to convince your dad to spend $3000+ because you want 1080p.
...

No one but you seemed bothered. He posted the parameters of his search and most everyone has tried to help him.
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post #17 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obiwanfong View Post

You're 15 and shopping for a $2,500 TV? High class problem, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Maybe I relate too much to your Dad, but he may not want to overspend for something like a TV because he is thinking ahead to things like your upcoming college education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obiwanfong View Post

Am I just behind the times in thinking that how to spend $2500 on a TV is not the average 15-year-old's problem?

So no, it wasn't JUST me, and I apologized for my mistaken assumption. That being said, yes, it absolutely does bother me that a 15-year-old is concerned about how he can convince his dad to spend $3500 instead of $2500 on a TV when his dad admittedly doesn't even watch TV that much.

And I tried to help him too. My suggestion that, if it's so important to HIM, he should chip in, is perfectly valid and IMO the best suggestion provided so far. Like I said, both he and his dad win.

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post #18 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obiwanfong View Post

Did you win a bet? What 15-year-olds pass around ~$600 between themselves??

Actually, my friend is 17, turning 18, and he's getting a buttload of money from insurance from a car accident when he was a baby on July 17th, when he turns 18. I'm getting the money then. My dad says I won't get the money, but my friend promised me that he would give me the money, even if his mom had to pay for it. I'm selling him a bunch of magic: the gathering cards for $300 including interest (he's been holding onto them for a while), and a white PSP for $275 with 3 games including interest. I just want to have the best TV to play my video games on, watch sports, and I just want to have the best that my dad will allow even if it takes me spending $1,000 extra from my own money, or getting a job to help pay for it.
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post #19 of 19 Old 07-06-2007, 04:21 PM
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When I was 15, I had a Tandy Computer 7.16 Mhz, with a 15" rounded CRT monitor, 3.5" state of the art floppy drive and Tandy enhanced CGA 16 color (not 16 bit that's 16 actual colors). In the livingroom we had one 27" color TV and it even had a remote control! We also had a VCR. When I was younger my parents couldn't seem to pay 1K for a VCR and couldn't decide on Beta or VHS, so we RENTED VCR's and watched movies when I was LUCKY! LOL! You don't have it too bad kid! Just be happy with whatever your Dad gets you, and be glad you didn't "grow up" when I did.

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