The Consumer Reports Jury is back...Samsung 5084...not glowing - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 03:34 PM
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another pointless thread, "consumer reports on PDP's and LCD's", are you kidding me, I would not trust that magazine with a review of a washing mashine or refrigerator.
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post #92 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 03:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Xayd View Post

that's hilarious. comcast doesn't know how the equipment they put in the field now works, how long will it take them to figure out how a new TV works?

Perhaps a PRO-150FD w/M-Card slot & dual ATSC/QAM tuners?
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post #93 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

The reason Panasonic can afford to lower prices is due largely to their upgraded and newly constructed plasma factories in Japan that are still being built and coming online as I am typing. Panasonic has constructed no less than 3 new huge plasma factories to expand capacity making cost less and allowing lower prices without hurtin the bottom line. By next year all the new Panasonic plasma factories should be complete.

Vizio sells more flat panel displays than anyone. This is because LG can't make enough plasma panels for Vizio so they had to start buying LCD panels to keep up with demand.

That's correct about Panasonic. It's similar with Sharp, as they can drastically lower their prices (and still profit) due to high volume in panel production at their own [2] large plants (and a 3rd to be in action by 2009).

That's incorrect about Vizio - while they are #1 in flat panel sales for the North American market (for 2007), their large competitor Samsung is #1 in flat-panel sales for the worldwide market [every region combined] - was reported back in August/September.
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post #94 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RUSTY PELICAN View Post

That's incorrect about Vizio - while they are #1 in flat panel sales for the North American market (for 2007), their large competitor Samsung is #1 in flat-panel sales for the worldwide market [every region combined] - was reported back in August/September.

Pity the homeless:



PDP.
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post #95 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dieselgg View Post

Yes, sure enough, "out of all the plasmas on that wall", yours is the best one.

Oh, there might be a Kuro there someday ....but it's up there alone so as to not embarass all the 1080p LCD's too much.
Just thinking about sub 600p motion on those ..um state if the art panels..makes me chuckle.

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
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post #96 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 05:33 PM
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Facts

Vizio makes a plasma that is brighter than Samsung. Next time you're at Sam's Club go to the Vizio and crank up the contrast and see for yourself.

Samsung is cheap korean garbage.

Panasonic makes the most reliable plasma. They don't break and they look very good. Panasonic is the highest quality.

Samsung has a picture that judders and flickers. People won't want to come over to watch it.
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post #97 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 05:56 PM
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I can't help but notice that the quality of many posts in this thread are of Consumer Reports quality.
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post #98 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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"Samsung is cheap korean garbage."

are you the author of how to make friends and influence people?
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post #99 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 06:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

I can't help but notice that the quality of many posts in this thread are of Consumer Reports quality.

With the thread 'aptly' named:

The Consumer Reports Jury is back...Samsung 5084...not glowing

can you really blame us?
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post #100 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

I can't help but notice that the quality of many posts in this thread are of Consumer Reports quality.

Quite correct. It is refreshing to see well thought out intelligent posts isn't it?
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post #101 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doogiehowser View Post

Facts

Vizio makes a plasma that is brighter than Samsung. Next time you're at Sam's Club go to the Vizio and crank up the contrast and see for yourself.

Samsung is cheap korean garbage.

Panasonic makes the most reliable plasma. They don't break and they look very good. Panasonic is the highest quality.

Samsung has a picture that judders and flickers. People won't want to come over to watch it.

This guy again? Ok I have heard you say the same thing for six months we all get it. Now do you have anything worth while to contribute? I remember when you said vizio was the best.
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post #102 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

Consumer reports is unbiased and they have spent thousands of dollars building listening and viewing areas for accurate reviews and calibration. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for over 20 years.

Accurate reviews? I know that isn't true. I have read reviews of items I personally own, and CR will rag paragraph after paragraph after some features CR claims the item doesn't have.

However, real true is that the item does. If CR just bothered to lightly browse through the owners manual, they would have known it.

But finding faults, even those they know are not true, makes for more dramatic, more "hard hitting", stories. And they need to have "hard hitting" stories to sell their magazine, because that is what the CR subscribers want.

So please don't fabricate a claim that CR has accurate reviews. They don't. And they don't care to have accurate reviews.
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post #103 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 07:48 PM
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CR versus roughly a half dozen on-line professional review's saying Pio's 8th gen PDP displays are the best PDP made this year.

CR versus many AVSers returning panny's, sammy's, sony's, vizo's, sharp's, sanyo's and many others for the Pio 8th gen line.

I'm not saying the panny's suck. Far from it. They make a great display. But those in the know, know CR is off the mark on their claim.
I was in Sear's last week and they have a great sale on the panny 50pz700u with an another $250 off if you use your Sear's card. Now that's one sweet deal. The salesman's biggest selling point was the CR claim that the pz700u is the best PDP display out there.
If I didn't know better I would of jumped all over that deal. But, unfortunately I do.
Enjoy your panny. It really is one of many great PDP's out there.
Just not the best IMO.
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post #104 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doogiehowser View Post

Facts

Vizio makes a plasma that is brighter than Samsung. Next time you're at Sam's Club go to the Vizio and crank up the contrast and see for yourself.

Samsung is cheap korean garbage.

Panasonic makes the most reliable plasma. They don't break and they look very good. Panasonic is the highest quality.

Samsung has a picture that judders and flickers. People won't want to come over to watch it.

FACT...

Vizo uses LG glass and LG components. Are you saying all Korean products are garbage or just Samsung?
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post #105 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaByte View Post

CR versus roughly a half dozen on-line professional review's saying Pio's 8th gen PDP displays are the best PDP made this year.

CR versus many AVSers returning panny's, sammy's, sony's, vizo's, sharp's, sanyo's and many others for the Pio 8th gen line.

I'm not saying the panny's suck. Far from it. They make a great display. But those in the know, know CR is off the mark on their claim.
I was in Sear's last week and they have a great sale on the panny 50pz700u with an another $250 off if you use your Sear's card. Now that's one sweet deal. The salesman's biggest selling point was the CR claim that the pz700u is the best PDP display out there.
If I didn't know better I would of jumped all over that deal. But, unfortunately I do.
Enjoy your panny. It really is one of many great PDP's out there.
Just not the best IMO.

At least you're somewhat opened minded regarding Panasonic. True technology experts wouldn't be caught dead in Sears shopping for tv's. But BestBuy and Circuit City are just as bad. Salesman that are on commission push what has the highest margin. Pioneer wins. I've always said that Pioneer Elites are very good but the cost provides more than significant diminished returns.

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I was disappointed with the look of the 5085. My panny has a black level setting light or dark. That's basically what Pioneers black levels looked like. Manufactured blacks that were not authentic but overexagerated because they removed color content that was not black.

You could buy a new Panny and a blue ray and HD DVD player for the price of the 5085 with some spare change.
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post #106 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

At least you're somewhat opened minded regarding Panasonic. True technology experts wouldn't be caught dead in Sears shopping for tv's. But BestBuy and Circuit City are just as bad. Salesman that are on commission push what has the highest margin. Pioneer wins. I've always said that Pioneer Elites are very good but the cost provides more than significant diminished returns.

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I was disappointed with the look of the 5085. My panny has a black level setting light or dark. That's basically what Pioneers black levels looked like. Manufactured blacks that were not authentic but overexagerated because they removed color content that was not black.

You could buy a new Panny and a blue ray and HD DVD player for the price of the 5085 with some spare change.

No matter how much garbage you spread. It won't magically make current Panasonic PQ better than Pioneer. I didn't think it was last year... this year its not even a contest. I can't wait till next year when Panasonic upgrades their image quality (Contrast wise) and the crazies who believe their previous year plasmas are as good as the new Kuro models.

After that please stop making primary color of green yellowish. Oversatuartion I'll let it slide.

What Pioneer is doing w/ black levels I hope all plasmas peeps start implementing it in all. Finally then we can talk about how 'bad' old black levels are. And how good they've gotten.

After brandname loyalties are gone, now we can talk important stuff like Black Levels, Colors, and processing. Let's see if UMR can measure a Panasonic to something close to what Pioneer is doing. F--- what me, D-nice, or you say for the moment. Look at the numbers... and then look at a calibrated picture. Then we can go back to putting on our Panasonic, Pioneer, Samsung t-shirts.

Even with this logic. I'm sure some people will still claim that duck is a rat.

By the way, I own a Vizio t-shirt. I say Vizio is way better than Pioneer or Panasonic. I am just afraid people will laugh at me hence I stick with Pioneer.

Damn salesman, conned me into buying a Pio twice!

Oh and another... I'd also take Samsungs Plasmas over a current Panasonic.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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post #107 of 350 Old 10-28-2007, 11:51 PM
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Whew !!!

Man what a relief !!


I thought I had a great TV. It's picture quality has amazed
me and everybody I have shown it to for the past couple of
months.

Thank goodness for Consumer Report and Doogie Howser !!!

I now know it's low rated and a piece of Korean garbage.

I'm tempted to just go ahead and pull the shotgun out of the
closet and put this poor POS television out of it's misery !!



dxr

Panasonic 42PZ700U -- Samsung 5084
Yamaha RX-V661 -- Ascend 340SE, 170SE
Toshiba A3x2 -- Panasonic BD10A,30K
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post #108 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

At least you're somewhat opened minded regarding Panasonic. True technology experts wouldn't be caught dead in Sears shopping for tv's. But BestBuy and Circuit City are just as bad. Salesman that are on commission push what has the highest margin. Pioneer wins. I've always said that Pioneer Elites are very good but the cost provides more than significant diminished returns.

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I was disappointed with the look of the 5085. My panny has a black level setting light or dark. That's basically what Pioneers black levels looked like. Manufactured blacks that were not authentic but overexagerated because they removed color content that was not black.

You could buy a new Panny and a blue ray and HD DVD player for the price of the 5085 with some spare change.


Well you have never been to Maui. We have a Sears and a Costco which are the "big retailers" here on Maui for TV's along with a couple of small mom and pop stores which sell PDP's at MFG price with NO DISCOUNTS what ever. Walk into Sears here and try to get a hundred bucks knocked off. Forget about it. Ain't gonna happen. Have to travel to Oahu to get Best Buy/Circut City. And they are not much better than Sears on priceing.

Yea I know I could get the panny and some sweet additions along side of it for the price of a 5080. But deep down inside I know I would always regret not getting either the 5080 or what I would really like is the 1150. There are some posts about the color decoder on the 750u(which i beleive is the same on the 700u) which makes them unacceptible for me. I know too much to be happy with a panny in the long run.
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post #109 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 05:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MegaByte View Post

Yea I know I could get the panny and some sweet additions along side of it for the price of a 5080. But deep down inside I know I would always regret not getting either the 5080 or what I would really like is the 1150. There are some posts about the color decoder on the 750u(which i beleive is the same on the 700u) which makes them unacceptible for me. I know too much to be happy with a panny in the long run.

My first PDP was a Panasonic, which is a fine display. As time passed and the shortcomings of the 50U series PDPs were identified and my knowledge of plasma display technology evolved from reading many of the intelligent posts authored by the participants of the AVS Forum, I began to feel some buyer's remorse for not buying a Pioneer PDP instead.

I have resolved this issue with my recent acquisition of a PRO-150FD.
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post #110 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

I like the look of the 10th generation Panasonic over my 9th generation panny and I have the nicest looking 9th generation the 600U with the black and silver look.

I'm sorry, man, but on this aspect, you are just wrong, wrong, wrong! Those 600U's with the black and silver were just fugly!

Now, the 8, 9, and 10UKs all look sweet with the charcoal grey bezel.
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post #111 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

...After brandname loyalties are gone, now we can talk important stuff like Black Levels, Colors, and processing. Let's see if UMR can measure a Panasonic to something close to what Pioneer is doing. F--- what me, D-nice, or you say for the moment. ....

I have already worked with the new Panasonic units and the consumer models are very poor compared to Pioneer. The light output at D65 was only 25 fL while the Pioneers can easily output 40 fL or more. My client was also complaining about light output. Any plasma that cannot output 35 fL at D65 is a no go product in my mind. The color decoder was also horribly wrong on the Panasonic. I will not work on the new consumer models because I do not believe they are worth my fee. The new commercial units are better, but the black levels are much worse than Pioneer. I have not worked with the latest Samsung plasmas at this time.
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post #112 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 06:41 AM
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geez, now pio is paying off the calibrators too...

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post #113 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 08:01 AM
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i dont get it, arent the Pioneer Kuro sets far and away the best, especially the "10" series (which isnt even up there?)?

is this only for 50" sets??

I dunno, I thought that this generation the Pioneer sets were supposed to be above and beyond signifigantly, so this confuses me.
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post #114 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 09:20 AM
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the only pioneer elite 'tested' was a 42.
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post #115 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I have already worked with the new Panasonic units and the consumer models are very poor compared to Pioneer. The light output at D65 was only 25 fL while the Pioneers can easily output 40 fL or more. My client was also complaining about light output. Any plasma that cannot output 35 fL at D65 is a no go product in my mind. The color decoder was also horribly wrong on the Panasonic. I will not work on the new consumer models because I do not believe they are worth my fee. The new commercial units are better, but the black levels are much worse than Pioneer. I have not worked with the latest Samsung plasmas at this time.

I do not doubt one word that you say about the new Panasonics. I would like your opinion as to what logic Panasonic could possibly be using to produce these kind of numbers. Are they saving money? Could any engineer think that the current levels produce better PQ? Is it possible that these numbers are isolated to the display you observed?
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post #116 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 12:02 PM
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I have read the whole thread and I am not amused. I will point out a few things about CR methodology in HDTV reviews:

1) CR buys multiple standard production samples of a particular model via the same retail and online sources used by most consumers. Contrast this with magazines and web testers who borrow a single specially selected and calibrated pre-production unit from the manufacturer. If there is any valid criticism of the CR practice, it is IMHO only that given the funding and time available, they cannot test but a few models in a given year.

2) CR performs a calibration on all sets being tested using a colorimeter and calibrated signal generator. Although this equipment is not new and has no HDMI output, the sets are being tested after being tweeked uniformly, and the relative ratings are in fact valid for the conditions of test. If your favorite brand doesn't test well via the component video inputs, TOO BAD - it's still a popular interface and I personally view more content via an external DVR connected via component than any of my other sources.

3) A portion of the HDTV ratings are based upon subjective viewings of the sets by a variety of testers, with the logos obscured. The viewers include both technical and non-technical people, and the viewing methodology minimizes the fanboy factor.

4) The only source of reliability information is consumer questionaires, and results are not reported for HDTV models with less than 100 responses.

IMHO the CR test methodology, although it can be criticized with some validity, is superior to any other source of equipment reviews I know of. It's also different enough that I am not surprised that the ratings do not alighn with other sources.

All this information about test methodology is available in the original CR HDTV test articles and in the somewhat different summary they post in the annual bound volume at the end of the year. In the interest of full disclosure, I have been a CR subscriber for over 3 decades. Although I can perceive flaws in some of their published results, I find much more to criticize in "professional" reviews from other sources.

Gary McCoy
The United States Constitution ©1791. All Rights Reserved.

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post #117 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 12:44 PM
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^ Interesting! I did not know that. I have found that while some other publications do include "value" as part of the rating system, CR makes this catagory one of it's most important. It's very similar to Money Magazine in that the product is evaluated as a whole and then it's price is compared to other products in the same catagory. If the product is close to or higher in all around quality, but much more expensive, it will receive a lower total score because of the deminished return from the higher cost. To the average "consumer" this means a lot.

So, if in fact the average consumer will not see all of the extra PQ/black level that a Pioneer offers over other brands, yet it costs substantially more, why would it not recaive a lower total rating?

Take it a bit further. J6P walks into Best Buy. He sees a 60 inch 768p Visio and a 50 inch 1080p Pioneer. He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for. All he knows is one is big and looks great and one is smaller, looks great, and costs twice as much as the the bigger one. He, like most, will buy the Visio and I don't blame him.

I have been on a "new display every year" pace and my wife has had enough. It would be much easier for her to deal with if the displays I had been buying and selling cost half as much. How many Kuro owners will be looking to buy a new display in 08? This forum will be full of them. J6P is not like 99% of the people on this forum and that is who CR caters to...the average person looking for a quality display for a good price...simple.

VanillaHD
Simple. Clean. information about high definition
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post #118 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 01:43 PM
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^ Interesting! I did not know that. I have found that while some other publications do include "value" as part of the rating system, CR makes this catagory one of it's most important. It's very similar to Money Magazine in that the product is evaluated as a whole and then it's price is compared to other products in the same catagory. If the product is close to or higher in all around quality, but much more expensive, it will receive a lower total score because of the deminished return from the higher cost. To the average "consumer" this means a lot.

So, if in fact the average consumer will not see all of the extra PQ/black level that a Pioneer offers over other brands, yet it costs substantially more, why would it not recaive a lower total rating?

Take it a bit further. J6P walks into Best Buy. He sees a 60 inch 768p Visio and a 50 inch 1080p Pioneer. He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for. All he knows is one is big and looks great and one is smaller, looks great, and costs twice as much as the the bigger one. He, like most, will buy the Visio and I don't blame him.

I have been on a "new display every year" pace and my wife has had enough. It would be much easier for her to deal with if the displays I had been buying and selling cost half as much. How many Kuro owners will be looking to buy a new display in 08? This forum will be full of them. J6P is not like 99% of the people on this forum and that is who CR caters to...the average person looking for a quality display for a good price...simple.

"He sees no real difference, because he doesn't really know what to look for."

Sounds like a snake oil sales pitch to me. Many times no matter the price, in notes CR will state TV "A" has by far the best picture. Usually TV "A" is rated #1. You incorrectly assume that CR rated the Pioneer lower because of it's price. You also assume the picture quality of Pioneer's 5085 is superior to the Panasonic. You can't do that. Well, yes you can, you're selling us snake oil and attacking others who share a different opinion than you do.
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post #119 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 01:55 PM
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CR is great for reliability numbers. They are piss poor for actual reviews. Of course this is my opinion and it comes from years of "CR reading" experiences.

IMO, if you want competent reviews for A/V equipment, you need to look at HT Mag, Sound & Vision, and A/V Mag.

What he said...in spades!
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post #120 of 350 Old 10-29-2007, 01:58 PM
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I smell an ITT technical institute grad here. Do you even have a high school diploma? I bet you used to repair vacuum cleaners.

I read posts like this and just shake my head. The entire A/V world has proclaimed the Pioneers to be the best flat panels ever, but you just dismiss these all and call respected ISF guys like UMR, a 'vacuum cleaner repairman'.

Your opinion may differ from others and that's fine, but you have no call to post crap like you did above. If you had any decency you'd apologize to UMR.
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