60" screen and 720p - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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In reading countless threads on here I am still confused about peoples thoughts on 720p with a 60" screen. A lot people state that with a 50" screen from a certain distance 1080p vs 720p isn't a big deal but go on to say if it is a 60" screen than that is a different story.

I have been eyeing the Pio PDP-6070. I plan on getting an HD-DVD player and Blu-Ray and I know that output in 1080p. I will be sitting roughly 15' away and wondering if 720p is an issue at that distance.
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post #2 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting68 View Post

In reading countless threads on here I am still confused about peoples thoughts on 720p with a 60" screen. A lot people state that with a 50" screen from a certain distance 1080p vs 720p isn't a big deal but go on to say if it is a 60" screen than that is a different story.

I have been eyeing the Pio PDP-6070. I plan on getting an HD-DVD player and Blu-Ray and I know that output in 1080p. I will be sitting roughly 15' away and wondering if 720p is an issue at that distance.

You are correct on what you have read before. 1080P becomes more important on the larger screen, 58 inches and up or so, but not at 15 feet. I would say on a 60" screen, inside 10 feet would matter, but I doubt highly you could tell any difference at 15'.

Many others will chime in. I couldn't tell from 8 feet on my 50", that is why I bought the Pioneer 5070.

Good luck. I have HD DVD with my 5070 and it looks awesome, I would think it would be eben more impressive on the 6070.

Doug
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post #3 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering at what distance the resolution isn't an issue. I know there is more to it than resolution but I was wanted to hear peoples opinions. The price for the Pio PDP-6070 is pretty good and from the distance I will be sitting I really don't want to step down to a 50".
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post #4 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting68 View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering at what distance the resolution isn't an issue. I know there is more to it than resolution but I was wanted to hear peoples opinions. The price for the Pio PDP-6070 is pretty good and from the distance I will be sitting I really don't want to step down to a 50".

http://www.carltonbale.com/wp-conten...tion_chart.png
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post #5 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 09:10 AM
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That chart is a great tool; however, many people can sit even closer to their 720p TVs than the chart recommends and see no difference between that and a 1080p TV. Very few people require more distance than the chart recommends. You should definitely be safe with the 6070 at 15 feet and probably even at 11-12 feet away. My father-in-law has a 50" TV. Some of the seating is 15 feet away, and the TV is definitely too small from that distance.
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post #6 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to confirm the native resolution for the Pio PDP-6070 is 768p?
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post #7 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting68 View Post

Just to confirm the native resolution for the Pio PDP-6070 is 768p?

yes
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post #8 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 10:53 AM
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It has always been my opinion that the industry pushes 1080p to make more $$$. So many people talk about buying 1080p to future proof ---> but, seriously... you cannot future proof technology. Just wait, in another year or 2, they'll come out with improvements that will appear to render all current 1080p sets as sub-standard. And I believe that 1080p will be surpassed in the next 5 or 6 years by some higher definition.

I have both 720p 50" and 42" sets. And I believe that at normal viewing distances (8 plus feet) you would be hard pressed to see any difference between a 1080p and 720p image. I think it's virtually impossible. Of course, if you are going to sit 4 or 5 feet away from a 50-60" screen (with a feed from a 1080p device), then yes, you'll see a difference.

The general recommendation is that folks should begin considering 1080p for sets larger than 50"...

You're talking 60", but you're also talking about a seating distance of 15 feet. Frankly, most of your viewing will probably come off of cable or sat. and that material is almost always 720p (or 1080i) anyway so you won't be taking advantage of the 1080p capability.... I think that if your seating distance is truly in a range of 12 or 13+ feet, you'll be fine.
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post #9 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 11:00 AM
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I'd be surprised if anyone other than Superman, the Bionic Man, or an eagle can tell the difference b/t 1080p and 720p on a 60-inch TV at 15 feet. 6-8 feet, yes. 10 feet, maybe. 15 feet? Very doubtful.
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post #10 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsand72 View Post

It has always been my opinion that the industry pushes 1080p to make more $$$.

Yes - this definitely happens. But that does not necessarily make it wrong.

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Originally Posted by tsand72 View Post

So many people talk about buying 1080p to future proof ---> but, seriously... you cannot future proof technology. Just wait, in another year or 2, they'll come out with improvements that will appear to render all current 1080p sets as sub-standard. And I believe that 1080p will be surpassed in the next 5 or 6 years by some higher definition.

Certainly in coming years current technology will be surpassed. Still, 1080p is the highest (readily) available definition and when configured properly can infact display significantly superior PQ. As for futureproofing, it is not simply being the top of the line, but being as close as possible to it - when 1440p becomes the standard 1080p is closer to that than 720p...

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Originally Posted by tsand72 View Post

I have both 720p 50" and 42" sets. And I believe that at normal viewing distances (8 plus feet) you would be hard pressed to see any difference between a 1080p and 720p image. I think it's virtually impossible. Of course, if you are going to sit 4 or 5 feet away from a 50-60" screen (with a feed from a 1080p device), then yes, you'll see a difference.

While I disagree that 8' is the 'normal viewing distance' at that distance you are not even seeing full resolution of 720 definition on 42". Nevertheless, at 8' on 50" you exceed 720p and start to enter 1080p - whether someone actually notices the difference depends upon the individual.

For reference 5' on 50" achieves max resolution of 1440p definition - and greatly exceeds it on 60".

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Originally Posted by tsand72 View Post

The general recommendation is that folks should begin considering 1080p for sets larger than 50"...

I think a far better recommendation is to consult the Viewing Distance Chart and see where things stack up. Sitting closer obivously enables resolving a higher definition on a smaller screen - much as sitting farther back requires a larger screen...

People can very easily cross-reference the diagram and get a general idea of what their needs are/should be. The difficult becomes when they split the difference: such as should I get a 1080p 50" or 720p 60" for sitting at 10'? In this case they will not see much benefit from that distance on 1080p 50" but they are well into the possible advantages of 1080p on the 60" which has maxed out at 720p... Thus it becomes a judgement call - some prefer 1080 in for when they walk next to the set or if they move their chairs in closer; others recognize that size does matter. Personal preference (and I suspect prior purchases) plays a huge role in this decision.

Viewing Angle is also something that needs to be considered, and favors bigger screens over higher definition.

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Originally Posted by tsand72 View Post

You're talking 60", but you're also talking about a seating distance of 15 feet. Frankly, most of your viewing will probably come off of cable or sat. and that material is almost always 720p (or 1080i) anyway so you won't be taking advantage of the 1080p capability.... I think that if your seating distance is truly in a range of 12 or 13+ feet, you'll be fine.

At 15' on 60" 720p is more than enough since at that distance one is not enough close to maxing 720p out. 1080p wopuld be completely wasted.
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post #11 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by The Master View Post

I'd be surprised if anyone other than Superman, the Bionic Man, or an eagle can tell the difference b/t 1080p and 720p on a 60-inch TV at 15 feet. 6-8 feet, yes. 10 feet, maybe. 15 feet? Very doubtful.

Anything closer than 12' will begin to show PQ improvements for 20/20 vision. Given that corrective lenses can now grant upto 20/10 vision and people have been tested to be better than 20/8 vision, there are many people that would see a difference at 15'...

Now obviously I think we should stick to the distance chart as indicated rather than worrying about best and worst case examples (What size TV and definition should a blind man watch...?) but everyone should realize that the chart is only a guide
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post #12 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 11:27 AM
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I've been following this thread and I also sit about 14' away. I agree about the 60" & Pio 6070, but for a few $$$ more ($400) there's the Panny 58" 700u 1080p...
Is that a choice for some of you???
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post #13 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 11:44 AM
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I highly recommend the Pio 6070. I just installed mine last weekend and it looks great. I considered the 58" 1080p optins for quite a while but have no regrets. This is your last chance for a long time to get a 60" Pioneer for close to 3k. The construction quality is solid. I sit 12' away but often view from the kitchen at 20' away. I'd rather pay for brand name and larger size than 1080p.
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post #14 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by iornsman View Post

I highly recommend the Pio 6070. I just installed mine last weekend and it looks great. I considered the 58" 1080p optins for quite a while but have no regrets. This is your last chance for a long time to get a 60" Pioneer for close to 3k. The construction quality is solid. I sit 12' away but often view from the kitchen at 20' away. I'd rather pay for brand name and larger size than 1080p.

Have you fed it an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray feed? If so what was your output resolution? I am leanig towards the Pio due to the build quality and great reviews.
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post #15 of 24 Old 11-14-2007, 02:09 PM
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I have the 6070 as well and the viewing distances in my living room range from 8 or 9 feet away to 20 or so. I think the TV looks great at any of those distances. I've seen that chart several times and I don't know how they compiled the data but to me it recommends further distances than necessary. Maybe my eyes just aren't discerning enough.
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post #16 of 24 Old 11-15-2007, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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So as far as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray does anyone feel like they are missing anything not viewing in 1080p?
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post #17 of 24 Old 11-17-2007, 01:14 PM
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I researched, viewed and vascillated between a Pio 5080, 6070, and 6010 for a long time. Even Panny 58" UK and 750 1080p were on the list, but to me, IMO beyond 10', 1080p resolution its just not that noticeable for the price diff. A larger room requires the biggest screen you can afford. My limit for today's technology was 3K.
So, I bought a Pio 6070 about 2 months ago for 3k delivered and I am still amazed every time I turn it on. I now realize that a 50" would have been way to small in a 20' deep room. So shrinkage is a real issue although my wife thinks "it's too big!" lol, I'm here to tell you that NFL football in HD looks amazing on this bad boy!
If you get closer than 7' you can begin to see SDE, but I view at 18' and I couldn't be more pleased with this Pioneer plasma.
Personally 1080p is for the discerning viewer that must have the best currently available, but I watch more broadcast TV than I do movies and concert music. Besides unless you watch 1080p program material on a native format TV there will always be some sort of scaling involved. I don't really see these issues as more important than picture quality. In my book Pioneer has got em all beat . But the field is closing fast!
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post #18 of 24 Old 11-17-2007, 08:43 PM
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shm353: Mind me asking where you got your 6070???
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post #19 of 24 Old 11-17-2007, 09:45 PM
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1080p on a 42" is a big deal if you have 20/10 vision. Read some of my other posts.
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post #20 of 24 Old 11-17-2007, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Zslick View Post

1080p on a 42" is a big deal if you have 20/10 vision. Read some of my other posts.

Only within 16' with that vision - and closer still to see big PQ improvements.
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post #21 of 24 Old 11-18-2007, 11:17 AM
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At that seating position 15 feet is too far to see a difference in detail. Instead of the hard to find 6070, look into the 58PE75U or 58PH10UK/UKA. More bang for your buck right here!

Chris
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post #22 of 24 Old 11-23-2007, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by creemail View Post

At that seating position 15 feet is too far to see a difference in detail. Instead of the hard to find 6070, look into the 58PE75U or 58PH10UK/UKA. More bang for your buck right here!

Chris

Chris,

Are these two sets able to input 1080p 24 frames thru their 1.3 hdmi interfaces?

Thanks
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post #23 of 24 Old 11-23-2007, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mvftw View Post

I've been following this thread and I also sit about 14' away. I agree about the 60" & Pio 6070, but for a few $$$ more ($400) there's the Panny 58" 700u 1080p...
Is that a choice for some of you???

I looked at this option when first searching for a tv. You should be able to pick up a 58inch 1080 for less then the price of the pioneer 6070. The price of current 1080p sets are falling everyday. the price of the 6070 has not dropped at all. My 5584 cost lest then the pio 6070 but in the end both sets are good tvs.
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post #24 of 24 Old 11-24-2007, 08:11 AM
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I think this debate over resolution and distance will rage on until 1080p becomes the only available format.
Apparently every person's viewing distance becomes the defining variable in comprehending resolution. The closer you are to a flat panel display the more important resolution becomes. Simple as that. That is true in 480i CRT display as well.
I have found the picture color and blacks and superior processing on the Pio 6070 a better value at the time (2 months ago) than the importance of resolution. The impressive 1080p Samsung 5884 was right along side of the Pio 5080 and to me, the blacks on the Samsung did not seem as "black". At that point I determined how important color contrast and black gradiation is. I was about to buy the 5080 and then opted for the 40% larger viewing area of a 7th generation plasma at a somewhat reduced savings.
I know that Pio gets too much kudos here on this forum but no matter how many times I looked at flat panel TV's, I just liked the warm natural colors and contrasting blacks of Pioneer.
This forum is clearly the best place to educate, but once you get your new display home in a darkened environment prepare to be amazed at any resolution, away from the rest pack, any brand or size or price/value is going to look outstanding in your home. regardless of opposing viewpoints. Just my 200 cents.
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