Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread Part II: All Posts Here Only - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 5406 Old 05-14-2008, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

for Kuros, i'm wondering if anyone who advocates the 200 hour burn in peroid has ever actually had problems with IR on them, or if they are just being paranoid through word of mouth?

because I've had my set about a week with no break in and average viewing time - i watched a 2 hour 2.35 aspect movie and when it was over i checked 2 inches away from the screen and i could see no evidence of IR at all.

Follow your owners manual.
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post #362 of 5406 Old 05-14-2008, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tts42572 View Post

I've ordered a Panny 50PZ800....Wasn't really concerned about IR/Burn-in since my understanding was that this problem had bee nfixed in the newer plasmas.

However, reading this thread has led me to re-think. I totally like plasma PQ alot better than LCD's....but I don't know if I could deal with this burn-in/IR issue....

Been deabting about getting the break-in DVD...would have to buy it since I don't have a DVD burner.....doesn't seem like doing this should be necessary but I'm willing to if it will help the TV out....

I'm not a heavy gamer, but do have a PS3 and plan to use it occaisonally....and I realyl don't want to be "afraid" everytime I use it.

So do people really think running the break-in DVD makes that much of a difference?

Also, do you have to just run the break-in DVD only when you first get the TV? Or could you just watch TV normally (stretched, of course) and then play the break-in DVD when not actually watching TV like during the day or overnight?

Disregard what is said on this forum regarding break-in and just follow your owners manual. The manufacturer designed and manufactured your set, they know what is best. You follow your owners manual for your vehicle don't you?
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post #363 of 5406 Old 05-14-2008, 06:13 PM
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Thanks for the reminder.

I think part of the problem is that I just bought a PS3...bought it mainly for blu-ray, but I'll also game a little bit (probably 4-5 hours per week max).

Being that I haven't actually received my 50PZ800U yet, I think I'm just second guessing myself.....sorta like your wedding day when you wonder if you made the right decision

Basically for me, the only attractive property of LCD's is the the fact you don't need to worry about IR/burn-in...and can watch non-full screen content with black bars all day and not have to worry.

However, I give the edge to plasma in EVERY other category. I like every aspect of a plasma picture better...and glare is no issue for me. So it comes down to a better picture all the time....and having to exercise a little care....or a picture I don't like as much...but would be able to use freely without worry.

I'll probably stick with my first choice.....but I'll probably worry about IR/burn-in for awhile. However, when scanning the burn-in/IR threads, 90% of the posts are "worrying" about burn-in/IR and not actual cases of it. Seems like there are a few instances here and there of some permanent IR....but seems to be the exception.

Still up in the air about buying the break-in DVD. Doesn't really seem necessary but probably wouldn't hurt to run it a bit during the first 100 hours. Don't see myself running it exclusivley though....I'll probably mix it in when I'm not watching TV.


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Originally Posted by ZBoomer View Post

You don't have to have the DVD; just avoid static images for a long time the first 100-200 hours, and even that may be overkill, its just to be on the safe side.

Watch TV in full-screen mode with no black bars, it will "break in" on it's own without the DVD, it just speeds up the process.

Once you do that you really have to abuse a current plasma to get true burn-in. You can get IR, but that will go away. Don't be scared away from Plasma, they just are too good to let that happen.

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post #364 of 5406 Old 05-14-2008, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tts42572 View Post

I'm not a heavy gamer, but do have a PS3 and plan to use it occaisonally....and I realyl don't want to be "afraid" everytime I use it.

I just got a new plasma, and though I've never "broken-in" my other two (and have never had IR or burn-in), I figured it wouldn't hurt this time around because this set will be seeing a bit of gaming. Since you have a PS3, simply download the break-in .jpg's, transfer them to your PS3 and then run a slideshow. It does the same thing as the DVD. I run mine whenever the set is not being used for TV, movies or gaming, shutting it off for a couple hours every day to cool down.
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post #365 of 5406 Old 05-14-2008, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MagicRat75 View Post

I just got a new plasma, and though I've never "broken-in" my other two (and have never had IR or burn-in), I figured it wouldn't hurt this time around because this set will be seeing a bit of gaming. Since you have a PS3, simply download the break-in .jpg's, transfer them to your PS3 and then run a slideshow. It does the same thing as the DVD. I run mine whenever the set is not being used for TV, movies or gaming, shutting it off for a couple hours every day to cool down.

Please, please...if you make a reference to downloadable tools/jpegs....give us a link also.

Thanks
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post #366 of 5406 Old 05-16-2008, 10:37 AM
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Image retention is an issue with a solution, it does not require a technician or any special fixes. It goes away by watching other stuff for a few minutes. When I play game for a long time if I get worried about image retention I can flip channels to a regular tv show for a few minutes. The issues with LCD's: clouding, flashlights, motion blur, haze, etc. are all problems that the consumer cannot fix.
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post #367 of 5406 Old 05-18-2008, 08:15 PM
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what is IR and how is it different than burn-in?
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post #368 of 5406 Old 05-18-2008, 08:37 PM
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IR = nonpermanent burn-in, so to speak.

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post #369 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 11:08 AM
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Like he said, when people say "IR" they usually mean a temporary image retention on the screen, that can be removed by watching full-screen material, or running the TV's IR removal routine.

"Burn in" is more severe, and cannot be removed. The phosphors have unevenly aged to a degree where you see a permanent change. Obviously this is much worse, and is not covered by warranty.
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post #370 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 12:47 PM
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I've been researching flat panel TVs for a couple of months. I'm not crazy about some of the issues that LCDs have, but I am very concerned with burn-in. I've got a 6-year old CRT-based RPTV that has burn-in from watching 4:3 material (and, no, I did not have the set in "torch" mode). I know a lot of people say that burn-in is not really a concern with plasma anymore, but I refuse to stretch old movies (I'm sorry, but Sydney Greenstreet is already fat enough in Casablanca). Furthermore, it's apparent as I read through the various threads in the Plasma forum, burn-in is a very popular (unpopular?) topic.

I can't say what percentage of 4:3 material I'll be watching, but let's guess and say it's 33%. Should I be considering a plasma set? it seems to me that burn-in is the #1 concern of plasma owners and potential buyers.

By the way, games are not an issue (at least for now).

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post #371 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 12:58 PM
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if you're considering a Pioneer, burn in is almost non-existent unless you're using it for CNN 24/7.

Panasonic is really good about it now too, i think almost the extent that Pio is.

point being, you get what you pay for. if you're looking at low-end stuff, it might be a concern. anything decent and it's not a problem.
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post #372 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post

I've been researching flat panel TVs for a couple of months. I'm not crazy about some of the issues that LCDs have, but I am very concerned with burn-in. I've got a 6-year old CRT-based RPTV that has burn-in from watching 4:3 material (and, no, I did not have the set in "torch" mode). I know a lot of people say that burn-in is not really a concern with plasma anymore, but I refuse to stretch old movies (I'm sorry, but Sydney Greenstreet is already fat enough in Casablanca). Furthermore, it's apparent as I read through the various threads in the Plasma forum, burn-in is a very popular (unpopular?) topic.

I can't say what percentage of 4:3 material I'll be watching, but let's guess and say it's 33%. Should I be considering a plasma set? it seems to me that burn-in is the #1 concern of plasma owners and potential buyers.

By the way, games are not an issue (at least for now).

That is a lot of content (%) that will be 4:3. You will not get IR or burn in but you WILL get uneven phosphor wear, regardless of which plasma set you use. At that high of a %, you will eventually start seeing in shows/movies that are full screen a difference in light colors on the sides, especially white. If 33% of your viewing is going to be 4:3 content you are talking a third of everything you watch. That is pretty high and kind of defeats the purpose of a widescreen TV (if you refuse to stretch what you are watching).

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post #373 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamR View Post

That is a lot of content (%) that will be 4:3. You will not get IR or burn in but you WILL get uneven phosphor wear, regardless of which plasma set you use. At that high of a %, you will eventually start seeing in shows/movies that are full screen a difference in light colors on the sides, especially white. If 33% of your viewing is going to be 4:3 content you are talking a third of everything you watch. That is pretty high and kind of defeats the purpose of a widescreen TV (if you refuse to stretch what you are watching).

Two things:

1. Isn't "burn-in" and "uneven phosphor wear" the same thing?

2. As for defeating the purpose of getting a widescreen TV, watching 33% 4:3 material means watching 67% widescreen material. No TV fits all aspect ratio material; the world is moving more and more widescreen; what other kind of TV should we buy?

My wife and I mainly watch DVDs. Some are widescreen, some are not. We watch virtually all material in OAR. We will undoubtedly transition to Blu-ray at some time, but haven't yet. We'd like to go flat panel (as in "hang on the wall"). If 33% of what we watch is too much to prevent burn-in, why are people stating that burn-in isn't really a problem any more with plasma sets?

Brian
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post #374 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post

Two things:
1. Isn't "burn-in" and "uneven phosphor wear" the same thing?

He just means that the areas with the bars are going to age(wear) differently the the area that is displaying the image due to watching 4:3 content with bars on the side. And no I don't think "burn-in" and "uneven phosphor wear" are the same. If you work certain areas harder than other's, those areas are going to get worn out. Burn-in is permanent "image retention".
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post #375 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonbloodsflow View Post

He just means that the areas with the bars are going to age(wear) differently the the area that is displaying the image due to watching 4:3 content with bars on the side. And no I don't think "burn-in" and "uneven phosphor wear" are the same. If you work certain areas harder than other's, those areas are going to get worn out. Burn-in is permanent "image retention".

This seems like a semantic argument. Isn't the type of burn-in that is caused by a station logo a simple case of extreme uneven phosphor wear? The people at PlasmaSaver.com agree with my definition (the following is from: http://www.plasmasaver.com/burnin.html):

Quote:


The most common type of burn-in is the result of watching 4:3 video with black bars on both sides on a 16:9 screen.

Regardless, even if the terms aren't completely equivalent, isn't that splitting hairs? Is there a percentage of viewing 4:3 material that is safe for a modern plasma TV? Less than 5%? Less than 10%? Less than 20%?

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post #376 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post

This seems like a semantic argument. Isn't the type of burn-in that is caused by a station logo a simple case of extreme uneven phosphor wear? The people at PlasmaSaver.com agree with my definition (the following is from: http://www.plasmasaver.com/burnin.html):



Regardless, even if the terms aren't completely equivalent, isn't that splitting hairs? Is there a percentage of viewing 4:3 material that is safe for a modern plasma TV? Less than 5%? Less than 10%? Less than 20%?

I haven't owned a plasma long enough to know truly what's safe and what's not for X amount of time. Obviously it's kind of a given that phosphor wear= burn in in the most general sense, since phosphor wear is what causes burn-in. But it's not the type of burn-in that most people are afraid of. There's no point in arguing about terminology b/c it's not going to change the nature of the technology. Obviously different terminology means different things to different people. If I may use your words, burn-in=phosphor wear(which is true in general), then you have burn-in the very second you first fire up your television. It's obviously not as literal it may sound. I think it's better phrased as, burn-in is a result of phosphor wear but some phosphor wear doesn't mean you have anything literally burnt in.

If a large part of your viewing is 4:3 content, then maybe a plasma television isn't for you. LCD and Plasma both have their pro's and con's, but for me plasma televisions have way more pro's than con's in comparison to LCD's. How many people do you see posting that they have burn-in on their plasma anymore? It's b/c it's not a problem unless you completely abuse your T.V., but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be careful.

I guess if I was unwilling to compromise on 4:3 content 100% of the time, during 33% of my viewing time, I'd start looking elsewhere. Maybe, myself and other plasma owners, are a little bit too paranoid? I don't know but that is my recommendation.
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post #377 of 5406 Old 05-19-2008, 05:44 PM
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That's the kind of feedback I'm interested in.

When I researched my present TV over six years ago, burn-in from 4:3 material was a major concern (and they most certainly called it burn-in back then). There was a lot of talk about how the purpose of the gray bars was to prevent uneven burn-in (even burn-in good, uneven burn-in bad). The common wisdom was that, if your contrast wasn't set too high and you varied the material you were watching, this wouldn't really be a concern. However, after five+ years, it became apparent that I had 4:3 burn-in (technically the center of the screen was more burned in than the sides).

In my mind, if you have to watch most of your 4:3 material stretched, you're compromising your viewing habits to fit your TV. I would rather compromise my TV to fit my viewing habits. I refuse to stretch classic movies. I will stretch some 4:3 TV, but I prefer not to.

I doubt we would really watch 33% 4:3 material (probably more like 10-20%), but my point is I don't want to have to worry about it. I can hear my wife now: "We paid all this money for this fancy, dancy TV and now we have to worry about how we watch it?"!

I'll see what others have to say, but I suspect I'll be looking for an LCD. The problem is I'm not sure that LCDs are quite there yet. I may just wait another year and let them work out the motion issues (though it sounds like they're getting close).

Brian
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post #378 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 01:45 AM
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How many people do you see posting that they have burn-in on their plasma anymore? It's b/c it's not a problem unless you completely abuse your T.V., but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be careful.

I've owned a plasma for just under a year, and even though my particular model is a little more prone to IR than the Pioneers and Pannys (mine is a Hitachi), I have yet to have any IR last more than a few minutes. That isn't to say that burn-in is not a possibility. In this very thread I've seen posts form people who's volume control and internal menu screens have resulted in IR that had lasted days. These people have said that their sets were not in "torch-mode" and that they did not leave any static images on screen for any length of time.

It seems that there are two types of stories in this thread:
ONE: People having marathon video gaming sessions resulting in little to no IR, and...

TWO: people watching a couple hours of something with a static logo or running ticker (or a fricking volume control) that has resulted in IR lasting days.

I guess the truth is in the middle. If you own a plasma, you still have to be careful but not paranoid. If you want to use your display primarily for video games/computer monitor/4x3 material, you might as well just get an LCD.
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post #379 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 04:52 AM
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Dear all,

I am new to this forum, my name is Khaled and I am planning to buy a plasma TV LG 42" however I am concerned about burn-in so my main question is;

*Does watching channels with "logos"/playing games using Play station for example affect the TV screen?

Are Plasma TVs designed for DVD movies only and not for video games?


Regards,
Khaled
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post #380 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post

This seems like a semantic argument. Isn't the type of burn-in that is caused by a station logo a simple case of extreme uneven phosphor wear? The people at PlasmaSaver.com agree with my definition (the following is from: http://www.plasmasaver.com/burnin.html):



Regardless, even if the terms aren't completely equivalent, isn't that splitting hairs? Is there a percentage of viewing 4:3 material that is safe for a modern plasma TV? Less than 5%? Less than 10%? Less than 20%?

Uneven phospor wear is going to cause areas of your TV to display lighter or darker depending on the wear. Burn in means that an area of your TV will display the same color and image regardless of what is on the TV (i.e. a station logo). You are not "burning in" the side bars, nothing is being displayed there, they are OFF. This causes uneven wear. Burn in causes one (or multiple colors) to be ON for so long, in the same spot, that you will see that color on all screens.

As for what kind of TV to get, I did not mean to imply you buy a different kind of TV, I was implying that you should stretch your material then to fit your screen. Some TVs have a very, very good stretch mode, some are horrible.

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post #381 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by real_khaled View Post

Dear all,

I am new to this forum, my name is Khaled and I am planning to buy a plasma TV LG 42" however I am concerned about burn-in so my main question is;

*Does watching channels with "logos"/playing games using Play station for example affect the TV screen?

Are Plasma TVs designed for DVD movies only and not for video games?


Regards,
Khaled

So far Ive played a few hours straight of Devl May Cry 4 on my PS3, I havent had any problems yet. I am still in my break in period so I do run the disk for 3-4 hours a day.
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post #382 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 06:57 AM
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I was implying that you should stretch your material then to fit your screen. Some TVs have a very, very good stretch mode, some are horrible.

Stretching classic movies is not an option for most people who love film (and my Toshiba has a pretty good stretch mode). It is almost as bad as watching pan 'n' scan on a 4:3 set. To me, stretching 4:3 material to fill a widescreen TV is saying the TV is more important than what you're watching; it's like saying the canvas, paint and frame are more important than the painting. If you have to stretch classic movies like Casablanca and Miracle on 34th Street to keep from damaging your TV, than I say that the technology for that TV is inadequate.

Of course, LCD TVs have their own set of issues, so I'm not sure where this leaves me. I may buy later this year, I may decide to wait for 1 or 2 more generations.

Brian
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post #383 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 08:33 AM
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i agree.
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post #384 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamR View Post

Uneven phospor wear is going to cause areas of your TV to display lighter or darker depending on the wear. Burn in means that an area of your TV will display the same color and image regardless of what is on the TV (i.e. a station logo). You are not "burning in" the side bars, nothing is being displayed there, they are OFF. This causes uneven wear. Burn in causes one (or multiple colors) to be ON for so long, in the same spot, that you will see that color on all screens.

What? Where did you get this information? This is not what I've read on the subject.

Cheers

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post #385 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 09:21 AM
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How many times can you possibly want to watch these movies ? Heck....maybe you should just get a black and white TV as well if you want to view the classics as they were meant to be seen

Not trying to bust on you...but just think HDTV's are mainly meant for HD content. Personally, I have a nice 32 inch CRT in our basement where I watch 4:3 content. We use the HDTV for prime-time viewing, movies and gaming. I really don't care for stretched 4:3 content in many cases either....but I've found I'm really not watching much of it these days anyhow. And I'm guessing I'll watch even less a few years from now.

I'd say if you are really that concerned, then save yourself the worry and go LCD since you won't really be able to enjoy the plasma with that fear in the back of your head. But if you could make other arrangements for your classic viewing, I think plasma offers better PQ for HD content in many cases.




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Stretching classic movies is not an option for most people who love film (and my Toshiba has a pretty good stretch mode). It is almost as bad as watching pan 'n' scan on a 4:3 set. To me, stretching 4:3 material to fill a widescreen TV is saying the TV is more important than what you're watching; it's like saying the canvas, paint and frame are more important than the painting. If you have to stretch classic movies like Casablanca and Miracle on 34th Street to keep from damaging your TV, than I say that the technology for that TV is inadequate.

Of course, LCD TVs have their own set of issues, so I'm not sure where this leaves me. I may buy later this year, I may decide to wait for 1 or 2 more generations.

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post #386 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 10:11 AM
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How many times can you possibly want to watch these movies ?

Do you know how many great films were produced before movies went widescreen? I am a movie lover. I like to watch movies in the proper aspect ratio. In my mind, it is ludicrous to suggest that I take a great work of art such as Casablanca and distort it just because the display hardware isn't what it should be.

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but just think HDTV's are mainly meant for HD content.

I assume you mean widescreen HD content when you say that, because there are Blu-ray/HD-DVD discs of 1.33:1 movies. Anyway, this is just not true. HDTVs are the new standard for television. It is designed to be backward compatible with all previous formats. They have composite (red/white/yellow) inputs. How much HD content can you watch through those? In a few years, HDTVs will be all that you can buy in a size larger than 30". Does that mean we should quit watching 1.33:1 content? Does that mean we have to desecrate (stretch) art to enjoy it? For that matter, should all content completely fill the screen? Do we need to get rid of those pesky black bars on 2.35:1 movies?

I have been researching flat panel TVs for a couple of months now. I have gone back and forth as to whether I should buy an LCD, consider a plasma or just wait a while. I have read so many comments about what a great image plasma delivers and about how immature LCD technology is when it comes to HDTV. However, it seems like the plasma world thinks that I should think nothing of distorting classic film art because the technology of their TV has a flaw that they pretend isn't a big deal.

I apologize if it seems I'm getting a little worked up over this, but the attitude that widescreen TVs are only about widescreen material astounds me. Movies come in many shapes and sizes. TVs only come in two, and that will soon change. The TV has to be able to adapt to the material. You should not have to compromise your viewing experience because of shortcomings in the design of display hardware.

Brian
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post #387 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post

Do you know how many great films were produced before movies went widescreen? I am a movie lover. I like to watch movies in the proper aspect ratio. In my mind, it is ludicrous to suggest that I take a great work of art such as Casablanca and distort it just because the display hardware isn't what it should be.


I assume you mean widescreen HD content when you say that, because there are Blu-ray/HD-DVD discs of 1.33:1 movies. Anyway, this is just not true. HDTVs are the new standard for television. It is designed to be backward compatible with all previous formats. They have composite (red/white/yellow) inputs. How much HD content can you watch through those? In a few years, HDTVs will be all that you can buy in a size larger than 30". Does that mean we should quit watching 1.33:1 content? Does that mean we have to desecrate (stretch) art to enjoy it? For that matter, should all content completely fill the screen? Do we need to get rid of those pesky black bars on 2.35:1 movies?

I have been researching flat panel TVs for a couple of months now. I have gone back and forth as to whether I should buy an LCD, consider a plasma or just wait a while. I have read so many comments about what a great image plasma delivers and about how immature LCD technology is when it comes to HDTV. However, it seems like the plasma world thinks that I should think nothing of distorting classic film art because the technology of their TV has a flaw that they pretend isn't a big deal.

I apologize if it seems I'm getting a little worked up over this, but the attitude that widescreen TVs are only about widescreen material astounds me. Movies come in many shapes and sizes. TVs only come in two, and that will soon change. The TV has to be able to adapt to the material. You should not have to compromise your viewing experience because of shortcomings in the design of display hardware.

.. you're in the wrong Forum if everytime you crank-up the plasma & burn-in on 4:3 films/broadcast TV is a concern; pick out the best you can discern from the LCD side and be happy. Besides classic Tarzan, there shouldn't be much of a motion/studder issue.
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post #388 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by daniel'son View Post

.. you're in the wrong Forum if everytime you crank-up the plasma & burn-in on 4:3 films/broadcast TV is a concern; pick out the best you can discern from the LCD side and be happy. Besides classic Tarzan, there shouldn't be much of a motion/studder issue.

I was in the right forum. I have read many articles and threads where people claim that burn-in (or uneven phosphor wear) is not really an issue anymore with plasma TVs. It seemed to me that this forum was the right place to find out if this is true.

What I found is that it is indeed a real issue if you want to watch more than a nominal amount of 4:3 material.

It's not like I watch 4:3 material all the time. My wife and I watch plenty of modern movies. And we were refusing to watch pan 'n' scan movies on our old 26" 4x3 TV, the same way we refuse to watch stretched images of 1.33:1 films now. However, we watch enough 4:3 material that my present TV (CRT-based RPTV) has uneven phosphor wear from the gray bars and I don't want to have to worry about it with my next one. That's why I'm in this forum. To figure this out.

It looks like I got my answer, which is that plasma is only a viable option if you watch mostly 16x9 material, or you don't plan to own the TV long enough for the uneven phosphor wear to become an issue. Neither of these will work for me, so I believe I have my answer.

Brian
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post #389 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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What? Where did you get this information? This is not what I've read on the subject.

Cheers

On this forum.

This assuming the side bars are set to black, i.e. off. Not grey. If they are grey (or anything else other then black) yes you will get burn in/IR.

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post #390 of 5406 Old 05-20-2008, 01:34 PM
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On this forum.

This assuming the side bars are set to black, i.e. off. Not grey. If they are grey (or anything else other then black) yes you will get burn in/IR.

Sorry, I thought you said that uneven wear and burn-in are not related.

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