Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread Part II: All Posts Here Only - Page 163 - AVS Forum
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post #4861 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 02:00 PM
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Didn't intend any authoritarianism, I simply suspected you were withholding information that he didn't have access to.

However MidWestSide, I did a quick search and found this thread, but it's for the Panasonic ST60 I believe. I hope it helps.

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=939
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post #4862 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidWestSide View Post

Where do i go to get dnice's slides and instruction how to break in my plasma?

What set do you have? If it is a Panny, it will be somewhere in the owner's thread. If you have already been using your tv, then it is likely too late to replicate his results. His break-in procedure is designed so that you go through the exact process he did before calibration so your result will be near identical. With that said, even doing this wont guarantee your results match his and are no substitute for a true calibration.

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post #4863 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

Didn't intend any authoritarianism, I simply suspected you were withholding information that he didn't have access to.

However MidWestSide, I did a quick search and found this thread, but it's for the Panasonic ST60 I believe. I hope it helps.

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=939

My apologies then. For my part, I'm simply try to save him the wasted time of running slides.

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post #4864 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 03:25 PM
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Not really a waste of time. Well it is if one is trying to "break in" a set, but in its early lifetime it is beneficial to throw up some grey scale and color when you're not watching the TV.

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post #4865 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post

Not really a waste of time. Well it is if one is trying to "break in" a set, but in its early lifetime it is beneficial to throw up some grey scale and color when you're not watching the TV.

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If you can show me some proof of this, such as the Panasonic manual saying that, or a Panasonic engineer said so, then fine.
Otherwise it is only beneficial to turn off your set when you are not watching it.
But since the manual says nothing about break in then it is not necessary.

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post #4866 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fcb View Post

If you can show me some proof of this, such as the Panasonic manual saying that, or a Panasonic engineer said so, then fine.
Otherwise it is only beneficial to turn off your set when you are not watching it.
But since the manual says nothing about break in then it is not necessary.

In all fairness, the manual also doesn't ask you to get your television calibrated or buy a sound system.

Myth or not, I know my Panasonic TH-50PX60U has some burn-in or stubborn IR. Yes, it is an old set and it was abused from a high contrast and a lot of 4:3 content/ESPN watching, but if it's stubborn IR, I can also just as easily chalk it up to uneven wear, meaning I didn't do enough with it in its infancy to differentiate how each pixel aged.

Whether or not that's true, I've taken extremely could care of my Samsung PN-59D7000 and PN-60F8500, and both of them are void of uneven wear, which is a great thing. Maybe the technology has changed, maybe it's because the sets are calibrated, or maybe it's because there is more available 16:9 content to watch and stations are more particular about us plasma owners with their logos. Whatever the case is, I also ran slides on them.

I didn't do it without watching anything else (well I did with the F8500 because I ran it when we were visiting family for five days), but I did watch 16:9 content for the first 300 hours, and after watching letterbox films I don't mind running the pixel flipper or screen wipe for a half hour. No harm to me, I guess except for my energy bill. But hey, I'm willing to do that because I do believe that uneven wear is something that still exists on these televisions, even though I don't think burn-in does.

D-Nice is pretty well respected within the community, and if he believes that this process will bring his calibration properly to your set, then maybe that's what needs to be done. That has nothing to do with calibration, but phosphor/color stabilization. I believe that has shown to be true.
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post #4867 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 05:01 PM
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I have had my 50 inch GT50B for around 8 months, with well over 1200 hours under its belt, so it is not a young panel.
In the beginning of december, which is around 4 weeks ago, I noticed a dark 'ghost' image on the bottom right corner of the panel. I realised it was the imprint of a channel frequented by my partner (E! HD from Sky). The channel logo is pure white and quite sizeable. That logo is now noticeable darker than the rest of the screen. It is at its most visible on uniform grey and green backgrounds. It is slightly visible in white and red backgrounds.
In the period between when I noticed it till now, which is around 4 weeks, I have kept watching full screen content, have run Panny's scrolling bars over night, tried color slides, 'snow' white static images. The channel with the culprit logo has also not been viewed at all. To this day, it does not seem to be fading.
Regarding the usage, the tv is always turned off at night (mains always switched off at night).
Although on occasion there are days where the plasma will only display that particular channel, by and large it displays a large variation of content of all aspect ratios, ranging from BluRays, gaming, Netflix, full-screen HD cable channels. 
 
The question is - is this image retention? Or is it burn in? Besides the methods ive tried (watching constant full screen content for a sustained period of time, scrolling bars overnight, color slides, 'snow' white static) does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this issue? Or do I have to simply live with it?
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post #4868 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post

Not really a waste of time. Well it is if one is trying to "break in" a set, but in its early lifetime it is beneficial to throw up some grey scale and color when you're not watching the TV.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

If you can show me some proof of this, such as the Panasonic manual saying that, or a Panasonic engineer said so, then fine.
Otherwise it is only beneficial to turn off your set when you are not watching it.
But since the manual says nothing about break in then it is not necessary.


Hey, I'm with you. Breaking in the TV in the fashion of putting up patterns for a certain number of hours is a waist, as you could be watching your set during that time.

However, it is a fact that new phosphors energize much more than phosphors that have aged. So in the first 2-3 hundred hours of use the phosphors are much more likely to age at different rates, making burn or IR much more likely during this phase.

So throwing up a grey scale or slides when not viewing the TV will get you out of this period more quickly.

Now, with advance tech like pixel shifting and what not, this isn't as big of deal as it once was. Manufactures may age their panels before shipment, but I don't know if they do or not.

I just know that when I was certified the general concensus was to season the TV with a mid range grey scale Window. And to get rid of IR you did the same thing.

I guess that is not the norm anymore though, I've been out of the game for awhile. I have done some research and found that blue phosphors age at a quicker rate. Also, the TV s still have tools to get rid of IR, and because plasma uses phosphors that are highly excited to produce an image they will age, faster when new, and also more quickly than a CRT. That is a fact. That is why they need recal every so often, just as projectors do as their light source ages.

Now you can fry your projector bulb with crazy stupid light levels and as long as the heat doesn't affect the projector you just replace a $200 bulb. You run crazy light levels when your plasma is an infant and you will burn it or at least create some bad IR if whatever you are displaying has a nice white logo.

But like I said before, tech has increased, and manufactures may age the phosphors in house. But unless I know that for a fact I'm going to vary my viewing and run tame brightness/contrast settings, and display grey scale Windows when I'm not watching it for the first few hundred hours.

At the very least we are all enthusiasts here, and range into Pros. We strive for the best picture, and take steps that may or may not be in the manual to make sure we can get as close as possible to perfect. Joe shmoe doesn't care about this stuff, they want the TV in touch mode instantly out of the box. My mom drives me nuts with this. On my Sammy I enabled Cal night and Cal day just because of this. Both are nearly identical, with the exception of day having a backlight pegged at 20 while night is 3-7 depending on whether or not I have control of the TV only at night, or if I get it during the day as well.

One more thing about manuals (and even some consumer test disks): they guide you through the "front panel" but neglect to tell you to warm up the TV for 45-60 minutes first. That is one of the first things I'd tell a client after setting an appointment.

So yeah, I'm not going to waste days of viewing time on break in, and never told a client to do so. But unless I'm told by a manufacturer that what I've discussed above is bad, I'm going to do it, because I have seen the difference, on modern plasmas that my friends have purchased. One followed my advice, one didn't. The one that didn't still has a video game logo visible even after moving it into a none gaming application. The other hasn't had a problem.

Regards,

Steve

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post #4869 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post


D-Nice is pretty well respected within the community, and if he believes that this process will bring his calibration properly to your set, then maybe that's what needs to be done. That has nothing to do with calibration, but phosphor/color stabilization. I believe that has shown to be true.

If you will check the VT60 thread, you will see that D-Nices calibration is less accurate than THX mode, so there is no sense in putting anyone else's settings in your set, and hence no prep is needed.
Other than that, the phosphors will stabilize on their own with simple normal viewing.
So again, unless you are in a hurry to get a calibration, no break in, slides, or other prep is needed.

Fred

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post #4870 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post



So yeah, I'm not going to waste days of viewing time on break in, and never told a client to do so. But unless I'm told by a manufacturer that what I've discussed above is bad, I'm going to do it, because I have seen the difference, on modern plasmas that my friends have purchased. One followed my advice, one didn't. The one that didn't still has a video game logo visible even after moving it into a none gaming application. The other hasn't had a problem.

Regards,

Steve

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Thanks, Steve, as you say no harm done, just wasted time and electricity.
But somebody has to tell the new people that the slides are nonsense, which is all I am trying to do.

Fred

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post #4871 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by fcb View Post

If you will check the VT60 thread, you will see that D-Nices calibration is less accurate than THX mode, so there is no sense in putting anyone else's settings in your set, and hence no prep is needed.

Oh well, I thought I'd try it. No matter, I own the Samsung F8500 anyway. I'm not trying to copy his settings, but that other guy is. Just let him do it if he wants to, I guess.


Quote:
Other than that, the phosphors will stabilize on their own with simple normal viewing.
So again, unless you are in a hurry to get a calibration, no break in, slides, or other prep is needed.

Absolutely they will, and surely none of that would be needed. One would hope that magenta and other inordinate colors will arrive on every pixel from time to time, but over a large sample size of 300 hours, you're sure to get your fix anyway. Nobody here has ever doubted that, including myself. Slides simply expedite the process when you're not watching your television, and they ensure as much balance in aging as possible.

Remember what I said about my televisions: my D7000 was either on when I was asleep and not watching the TV as it would be running slides, or it was on and I was watching good ol' HBO or one of my 1.78:1 movies (or a 1.85:1 Blu-ray using the overscan option); my F8500 came to me the day before we went to see family, so I started the slides process anyway because the calibrator was coming a few days after we would return, and we still didn't have a stand for it at the time anyway.

There are benefits to running slides, though nobody ever said it should dominate your TV viewing when you first get the set. Best to avoid them logos for a while, though.
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post #4872 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 07:22 PM
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Can't argue one bit with that. Like I said previously I'm not a fan of universal calibrations. And that isn't because it took money out of my pocket, it was because every set will be different, as will viewing conditions, altering the final Cal.

I never ran into this, but if I had one set that was used only in total darkness, and somebody else had the same set with the same total darkness I'd plug in the first Cal into the second set and go from there.

The set, the viewing conditions, the signal chain, all affect the Cal, and I never left a client without performing a Cal using test disks or whatever on their main media source chained all the way to the set input.

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post #4873 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 07:46 PM
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ROTF. This site is both a very good tool to get back into calibrating/integrating business, as well as a bane for calibrators because everyone is looking for the diy route.

A site like this, with many knowledgeable people, puts out a ton of good info, but it's so very hard to change directions with a topic such as plasma sets.

Man I should show you the email I fired off last year to AV Pro Alliance and Joel Silver regarding the giant problem of that is best buy getting the ISF stamp. It has killed pro calibrators.

The fact that I dumped a load on a Cal class to be recognized as ISF certified just kills me now because "best buy guys are ISF certified and I won't let those jokers near my TV, so you're isf too, why would i let you near my TV?"

It has diluted the "gene pool" so to speak. And it's not like they hold cert classes every weekend so how did all these guys get certs?

Joel was willing to talk with me but I never called. Think I need to resend the email and have him call me.

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post #4874 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 08:19 PM
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What do you think of autocal, Iceberg?

Fred

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post #4875 of 5250 Old 01-01-2014, 09:50 PM
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Auto Cal is awesome! Of course you need to check the work, but that is simple and fast process. Only problem is using auto Cal when you are using a test disc in a BD. If I remember correctly Cal man can utilize popular test dics, the player just must be able to control the player. Honestly I don't have gear anymore so I can't check how well this works. I have only had a couple sets that supported auto so I really never committed it all to memory.

The # of devices that support ISFccc or direct control nowadays is huge compared to what it used to be.

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post #4876 of 5250 Old 01-02-2014, 10:21 PM
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Forgot to add that it is an awesome feature even when the tv doesn't support it. You can run through a 10 point grey scale measurement with out having to babysit and click through it. Provides excellent time to discuss what you're doing with the client. A big part of calibration is educating the customer, so if you can get in the door with just the basics like front panel calibration and some before after pictures you can then go over the finer points and benefits and you're more likely to get referrals.

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post #4877 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 04:30 AM
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Hi guys,

 

I'm awaiting the arrival of my Panasonic 65" ZT on Tuesday. What are the modern-day "best practice" break-in procedures? My main concern is avoiding IR and burn-in as much as possible over the life of the set.

 

Thanks!

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post #4878 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 04:54 AM
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Hi guys,

I'm awaiting the arrival of my Panasonic 65" ZT on Tuesday. What are the modern-day "best practice" break-in procedures? My main concern is avoiding IR and burn-in as much as possible over the life of the set.

Thanks!
KJ

Just watch at fullscreen and vary your content for the first hundred hours. Congrats on the new Panny, I'm sure you will enjoy it!

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post #4879 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 05:50 AM
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I would add that if you plan to watch a lot of the stuff with the network bugs at the bottom during that period, to use the TV's zoom mode to get the bug as far out of the frame as possible. This ensures you fill the screen of course, and that you don't get IR from those logos.
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post #4880 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 06:29 AM
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I would add that if you plan to watch a lot of the stuff with the network bugs at the bottom during that period, to use the TV's zoom mode to get the bug as far out of the frame as possible. This ensures you fill the screen of course, and that you don't get IR from those logos.

Agreed. On a slightly related note, I was very surprised to see that ESPN went to a clear logo, and to full frame during the Sugar Bowl last night. All of the other bowl games they have aired have had the ticker bar a the bottom with the blazing white logo. Very curious.

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post #4881 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 06:33 AM
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Was the same for the Rose Bowl and hoping for the Orange bowl tonight. I wish they would ditch the constant banner honestly its annoying show it a 15 minute increments of something no reason to display it constantly. But then again it is ESECPN lol

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post #4882 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 06:41 AM
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I'm with you on that; if I want to read news while I'm watching the game, I'll do it on my iPad.

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post #4883 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 06:51 AM
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Just watch at fullscreen and vary your content for the first hundred hours. Congrats on the new Panny, I'm sure you will enjoy it!


Thanks for the reply! I don't need to worry about running slides / calibration DVD's or anything like that?

 

What about concerns over watching 16:9 content (which I think would have bars?)

 

Thanks!

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post #4884 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 08:32 AM
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Thanks for the reply! I don't need to worry about running slides / calibration DVD's or anything like that?

What about concerns over watching 16:9 content (which I think would have bars?)

Thanks!

Slides aren't necessary, but you can use them to help age the phosphers when you aren't watching - up to you. I believe there are some posted settings from D-Nice for this set; if you want to use his settings, you would have to follow his break-in procedure that would use slides. Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1474480/official-zt60-owners-thread

As for black bars, I would put a minimum of 100 hours on the set before watching this content.

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post #4885 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 09:23 AM
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Just watch at fullscreen and vary your content for the first hundred hours. Congrats on the new Panny, I'm sure you will enjoy it!


Thanks for the reply! I don't need to worry about running slides / calibration DVD's or anything like that?

 

What about concerns over watching 16:9 content (which I think would have bars?)

 

Thanks!


I don't want to start this up again, so just read the few p posts before your original smile.gif With a cal disc you can set your brightness/contrast but whatever you get I would turn down say 20-30% (totally pulled those out of my butt) for the first 100-200 hours just as a precaution. I dont like the term break in, unlike an engine which absolutely needs break in style treatment for awhile to reach full potential and keep it for the better of its life, a plasma just needs to be "seasoned" which is what us calibrators called it back in the day (kinda like fine wine in a barrel, or bourbon, or aged beef, plasmas take a little while for the phosphors to exit their high intensity new born phase, after which they are very much less likely to get IR, age at very different rates (blue mainly because, well, blue phosphors age more quickly in general and very hard and fast in the begining if you watch some blue heavy tv while your tv is a torch on the wall)). Hows that for grammer and nested sentences? smile.gif Mechanical engineering is my day job so equation like writing just spills over lol.

Anyway, the reduction of the brightness/contrast will make any logos or tickers less likely to cause any burn or image retention during your sets early life. Reducing color will also help with phosphors ageing at a different rate (this will increase the time it takes to stabilize, but protects from any logos you may neglect). After a couple hundred hours you can perform a quick and dirty DIY front panel calibration, however a pro calibration would be beneficial because of the infinite differences in how the phosphors stabilize from set to set with and different viewing from owner to owner.

16x9 is fine. Just stick to the actual 16x9 content or zoom any other ratios so they fill the screen.

Oh, and go buy a couple more sets and put them in storage because Panny is getting out of the plasma market wink.gif

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Steve
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post #4886 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 01:34 PM
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Good input. I'll just add that reducing contrast (white level, overall brightness of the image) is good. But once you do, for that initial period, re-test the Brightness adjustment (minimum black level), because it will change as the Contrast setting changes. Do not crank down the Brightness setting, because you will only lose shadow detail by turning shadows into black. You can probably live with Contrast set at 60~70 very easily, and turn it back up to about 80~ once the set is aged enough.
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post #4887 of 5250 Old 01-03-2014, 03:57 PM
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Good input. I'll just add that reducing contrast (white level, overall brightness of the image) is good. But once you do, for that initial period, re-test the Brightness adjustment (minimum black level), because it will change as the Contrast setting changes. Do not crank down the Brightness setting, because you will only lose shadow detail by turning shadows into black. You can probably live with Contrast set at 60~70 very easily, and turn it back up to about 80~ once the set is aged enough.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Contrast will reduce overall brightness of the set, and you'll lose a bit of detail in the whites. Brightness/contrast settings do effect each other, and there is no reason to suffer crushed blacks caused by a reduced brightness setting. (Don't know why I said reduce both :face)

Brightness/contrast settings seem backwards to the uninitiated, but they do make sense when you think about them more. I still get confused even after 7 years. So I've just conditioned my brain to say the controls are labeled backwards lol.

As mentioned above, whenever you're setting brightness and contrast use an iterative process, it's better nowadays, but you still may have to give a little to get a little, so depending on what you like mess with one setting so it isn't "perfect" and you may get better performance out of the other setting. Hope that isn't too confusing. smile.gif

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post #4888 of 5250 Old 01-04-2014, 03:55 AM
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I'm wondering if it's worth taking an ex-display Panasonic TXP50X60B for a 10% discount (so about £342 instead of £380) or if the risk of it not being "seasoned" properly, thus maybe making it more vulnerable to burn-in/IR, makes it not worth it?

I might just get the 42" for £279 instead but there's the option of getting an ex-display one of those for a 10% discount (so £251) as well if there isn't really any risk and every little helps smile.gif
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post #4889 of 5250 Old 01-04-2014, 05:14 AM
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I'm wondering if it's worth taking an ex-display Panasonic TXP50X60B for a 10% discount (so about £342 instead of £380) or if the risk of it not being "seasoned" properly, thus maybe making it more vulnerable to burn-in/IR, makes it not worth it?

I might just get the 42" for £279 instead but there's the option of getting an ex-display one of those for a 10% discount (so £251) as well if there isn't really any risk and every little helps smile.gif

In my opinion, 10% is not enough of a discount to purchase a display - plasma or any other TV.

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post #4890 of 5250 Old 01-04-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by doveman View Post

I'm wondering if it's worth taking an ex-display Panasonic TXP50X60B for a 10% discount (so about £342 instead of £380) or if the risk of it not being "seasoned" properly, thus maybe making it more vulnerable to burn-in/IR, makes it not worth it?

I might just get the 42" for £279 instead but there's the option of getting an ex-display one of those for a 10% discount (so £251) as well if there isn't really any risk and every little helps smile.gif

My local ASDA here in Scotland and the Co Op are selling the 42" for 279 pounds. It's in my opinion a great deal for a decent 42" plasma.

My dad just bought one for his bedroom and likes it - broadcast HD looks rather nice on it tbh
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