Master Burn-In/IR/Break In Thread Part II: All Posts Here Only - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 5306 Old 07-14-2008, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArchAngelGabriel View Post

I figure I would update everyone... I now have about 30-40 more hours on the set since finding my history channel burn-in. Unfortunately, it is still there. I have not turned to the channel since... When I use the white-wash function I can see the history.com and even the logo sightly.

Not the end of the world, as It would be difficult to see under normal viewing circumstances... Just a bit upset though, because the set has been taken care of, I have been careful with it. I limited the time it was on the channel in the first place, but I guess that isn't enough.

My only hope at this point is the run the 'inverted' option and watch the channel for a long time. But that might make it worse. Does anyone have experience with that? I assume invert was created for that reason, but whether or not it will fix the uneven phosper wear (burn-in) is just a guess on my part. I'd hate to make it worse.

So here you go... My new LG 50PG20 has burn-in. On a side note, I looked at my friends plasma (Panny 42" 07' and and Sammy 50" 06') and both of them have signs of burn-in. My Dad's Dell W4200 05' (sammy for the most part) was used as a computer monitor for about 2 years and has only a very slight burn-in where the task bar was. All in all, the Dell faired the best in regards to burn-in, IMO.

I think people just don't know how to look for burn-in, or have never watched anything static on their screen. Or, I just happen to have seen it on the 4 Plasmas that I mentioned... A little bit bummed, honestly.

I don't think the inverse image thing was created to get rid of IR. In my opinion I would use that. I woudl stick with the white wash and just full screen HD content for as long as you can.

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post #662 of 5306 Old 07-14-2008, 06:11 AM
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It would be nice if the manufactures of plasmas (or someone with clout) would make the stations aware of the IR/BI problem with their obnoxious solid station logos that are constantly on the screen.

It is nice to see that quite a few stations use transparent logos, I just wish they all would.
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post #663 of 5306 Old 07-14-2008, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OgOgilby View Post

It would be nice if the manufactures of plasmas (or someone with clout) would make the stations aware of the IR/BI problem with their obnoxious solid station logos that are constantly on the screen.

It is nice to see that quite a few stations use transparent logos, I just wish they all would.

Plasma is the only one that has this issue so the other parts of the market (that if you combine them all dwarf the Plasma market) have no problems. I doubt stations would change for such a small percentage of the market.

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post #664 of 5306 Old 07-14-2008, 08:37 PM
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Guys, I plan on receiving my Pioneer 6020 plasma any day now and I have a question about burn-in/image retention on plasmas in general. I've read numerous articles on this and most say to try to avoid leaving logos, etc. on the screen for long periods of time. My question is, how long is long? I was watching VH1-Classic the other day and noticed they had their logo displayed in the bottom right corner. It would disappear every now and then to show other advertisements, and it would also change colors from time to time and go away during commercials, but It was there the majority of the time during this 2-hour program. Would there be a concern with watching a single program (say 2 hours or so) with the logo displayed? I've never noticed until now, but it seems that there are a ton of cable channels that display their logo. Is watcing these channels a couple of hours at a time a cause for concern?
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post #665 of 5306 Old 07-14-2008, 10:18 PM
 
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2 hours I would not worry about. Be gentle for the first 150 hours. Not leave on pause for 8 hours
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post #666 of 5306 Old 07-18-2008, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ROMAN O View Post

2 hours I would not worry about. Be gentle for the first 150 hours. Not leave on pause for 8 hours

I agree with Roman, but would add something as it relates to Station Logos.

There are a few station logos that are downright evil and you need to watch out for them. Take a look at History-HD and MTV-HD as two examples. If you see any logos that are similar, I'd suggest taking special care.

My display is relatively resistant to IR, but torch bright Logo's leave an impression that I have learned to take seriously. This is espeically true if you use a DVR. Let's say you are watching a 2 hour show on History-HD and are skipping through the commercials. That is, essentially, leaving a static, torch bright, image on your plasma for 1.5 hours straight. That's bad.

If the logo's spin around, vanish for a while, or are translucent, its not an issue, but there are a few that do none of the above and will wreak havoc on your plasma.

I've taken to avoiding those channels as much as possible and if the content is especially compelling, whitewashing the logo out after I'm done watching the show.

In the meantime, we all need to continually inform channels like History HD, that their static logos are a public nuisance.

pax,
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post #667 of 5306 Old 07-18-2008, 09:54 AM
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Btw...I found an e-mail address to use for History Channel.

thc.viewerrelations@aetv.com

I've already sent a polite, but strongly worded, request to modify their logo/watermarking policies to be more akin to that used by HDNet and Discover HD.

Let's fill up their in-box, because it is to their advantage to change. Until they go translucent, my History Channel viewing will be extremely limited.

thoughts...
rwr
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post #668 of 5306 Old 07-18-2008, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwr1776 View Post

Btw...I found an e-mail address to use for History Channel.

thc.viewerrelations@aetv.com

I've already sent a polite, but strongly worded, request to modify their logo/watermarking policies to be more akin to that used by HDNet and Discover HD.

Let's fill up their in-box, because it is to their advantage to change. Until they go translucent, my History Channel viewing will be extremely limited.

thoughts...
rwr

.. concur; they should know there's a fairly large plasmonite community out here that doesn't take kindly to having their emblem embossed on their screen. Or do they .. in which case, yr point regarding 'very' limited viewing may be the ticket; of course, these fat-heads may not care.

add: message sent.
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post #669 of 5306 Old 07-18-2008, 11:43 AM
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I sent an email out as well.
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post #670 of 5306 Old 07-19-2008, 07:48 PM
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Err...i was under the impression that IR/burn-in was pretty much a thing of the past and that people shouldn't worry about it when getting plasmas...

this thread has me worried lol. Feel like i should just stay LCD (which has its own fair share of problems).
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post #671 of 5306 Old 07-20-2008, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwr1776 View Post

Btw...I found an e-mail address to use for History Channel.

thc.viewerrelations@aetv.com

I've already sent a polite, but strongly worded, request to modify their logo/watermarking policies to be more akin to that used by HDNet and Discover HD.

Let's fill up their in-box, because it is to their advantage to change. Until they go translucent, my History Channel viewing will be extremely limited.

thoughts...
rwr

Thanks for posting the address! I too have sent them an email.
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post #672 of 5306 Old 07-20-2008, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Test123455 View Post

Err...i was under the impression that IR/burn-in was pretty much a thing of the past and that people shouldn't worry about it when getting plasmas...

this thread has me worried lol. Feel like i should just stay LCD (which has its own fair share of problems).

It isn't a "problem" per say with modern broadcasts and technology, it is essentially stations refusing to update their broadcasts. I mean, Nickelodeon has a transparent logo for god's sakes. It's like saying "oh, thanks for shelling out the extra fee to receive our HD broadcast, but we are gonna go ahead and only broadcast audio in poor quality mono so that sound system you got is useless." People know you aren't supposed to use plasmas as a picture frame, so why be so far behind the curve?
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post #673 of 5306 Old 07-23-2008, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by indij View Post

Here's the images. Focus on the center of the screen. There is a darker band in the center and a smaller one below it. There are other areas which might be not clear in the pics but more obvious in reality.

I just got a 5010, and I can see it on every color in the burn in dvd as well. Did this go away for you after the burn in period, or does the problem still exist? I can't really see it when watching TV, but if there is any color that fills most of the screen (like the burn in dvd), I can see it.

It bothers me for a TV this expensive, and to not have uniform colors.
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post #674 of 5306 Old 07-23-2008, 08:04 PM
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Hi all... new to the plasma world and took advantage of the price drops for the Pioneer PDP-6010FD.

I have seen mentions of breaking in your sets, but don't know what the purpose is or how to do it.. Is there a dvd or bluray disk I get from somewhere? And how long do you run it, because there seem to be varying answers with this...
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post #675 of 5306 Old 07-24-2008, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by netpez View Post

Hi all... new to the plasma world and took advantage of the price drops for the Pioneer PDP-6010FD.

I have seen mentions of breaking in your sets, but don't know what the purpose is or how to do it.. Is there a dvd or bluray disk I get from somewhere? And how long do you run it, because there seem to be varying answers with this...

Start by reading the first post of the thread and go from there.

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post #676 of 5306 Old 07-25-2008, 10:13 AM
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(Please forgive any English syntax errors it's not my first language)

whew I just finished reading the whole thread (skipped only a few posts)

I won a LG 42PG20 in a contest and I have it for 2 days.

I haven't really tried it yet (just tested it a few minutes) because I wanted to be well informed before.

So from this thread I realize that the main problem seems to be the station logos.

IMO the stations/network/channels are to blame. What they should do is pretty simple:

1.Display a transparent logo

2.Move the logo (with fade-out fade-in) regularly (bottom right, bottom left, top right and top left)

3.Display no logo at all

Now in a case of ticker (stock market, sports results, etc) I guess there is nothing to do unfortunately.

Finally here is something I found while searching for "tv station logos plasma" on google.

It's an article in which the Plasma-tv producers talk about burn-in.

(Can't post the URL since it's my 1st post).

Samsung's answer is almost hilarious
Quote:
we recommend that you limit your viewing of stationary graphics and images, such as the dark side-bars on nonexpanded standard format television programs, stock market reports, video game displays, station logos, web sites, and computer graphics and patterns to no more than 5% of the total television viewing per week.

5% ? Are you kidding me ? What's the % of channels that display a logo ? I would guess that it's a lot higher than 5%. Basically you can't watch TV with a Plasma according to Samsung.

Since I bought a LCD (only 26" though) a few weeks before winning the Plasma I think I'll watch TV on it and reserve the plasma for movies.

But then again even movies can cause problems with the black bars.

Maybe I'll just use the Plasma as a decoration.
I'm just kidding of course
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post #677 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 03:18 AM
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so is the burn in thingie that happens worse or the same as CRT - that is to say I already have a CRT (manily because of the colors and black level) and have not really worried about burn in with my CRT (it has happen stupid comcast DVR locked up, as they tend to do when I wasnt home and the TV was on and it had the bottom thingie on screen - now it has a small black line less than 1 pixel wide across the whole screen, in bright white it is the only time you can see it)

so is it more or less a worry with plasmas than CRT's

I want the retro skin back please
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post #678 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 07:26 AM
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Panasonic is similar to a CRT (no burn-in after almost a year, but plenty of IR with a few games), but not quite as good from what I have read, Samsung is no where near a CRT (got burn-in on a Samsung plasma after less than a month) and Pioneer seems to be the Same or maybe better than a CRT. (I got to play around with a friend's new Pioneer 5010 right out of the box, and I just couldn't get it to show IR no matter what I did, and it wasn't even broken in yet)

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post #679 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 08:42 AM
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Same, maybe less if you're using the burn-in protection on the plasmas.

Like CRTs it depends somewhat on the manufacturer and how you use it.

I work in an AV company and we burned in images on dozens of CRTs just by leaving up the same GUI 24 hours a day. Likewise if you leave a Plasma set to CNN or FOX with the news tickers on the bottom as your primary watching for many hours a day you're going to get some IR at the bottom of the screen. On the flip side I'd fall asleep while watching CNN and leave it on for 6-7 hours at a time and never had a burn-in problem on my Panasonic. Pac-Man CE on my XBox360 would leave an IR signature (that quickly faded after a few seconds) from just 30 minutes of play. No other game I played did that just Pac-Man CE (and I play alot of games... I think it was just the intense/bright colors of that particular game)

Basically just treat your plasma like a CRT and you'll be fine. Don't run it in torch mode, don't show the same image on it for many hours.
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post #680 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 09:32 AM
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It's definitely worse than CRT. Plasmas drive the pixels at full brightness (they create lower brightnesses by flashing them on/off at different rates) so they are much more susceptible to image retention/burn-in, even after leaving them on completely static screens for 2/3 hours sometimes.

I've honestly never seen even a hint of image retention let alone burn-in on any of the CRTs I've ever owned and yet I've seen it after just a few hours of gaming on all the plasmas that I've had, including a Kuro.

I also run my displays at low brightness settings, so that's not the issuecontrast has been at 1/3 or lower on most of them. (80-100 cd/m²)

You definitely have to be careful with what you're watching and for how long, even with the Kuros. (who seem to be the least susceptible to it)
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post #681 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 09:32 PM
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well I have a KV-32HS510 SONY CRT and I have burned in a small black line and after looking at it closely now I can see one from when it goes into 16x9 mode and one from the more than 1.78:1 dvd

so if I get the kuro 50" pro-111 and watch a lot of movies that arent 1.78:1 could I have the same problem? - or a lot of 4x3 content?


this is a huge issue for me, I have returned many LCD's (4), Plasmas (2), and DLP's (3) because the black level was crap - even on a high end sony 52" XBR5 and the Panasonic plasma it looked like crap compared to my CRT - so I havent gotten a new TV that I like yet enough to keep it so I have herd these kuro's are on-par with CRT for black levels now so maybe I want to upgrade - maybe not since I herd about kuro LCD's which wouldnt have burn-in problems but could be as dark black maybe

I am in need of some expert advice from people who like me cant stand the blacks on anything other than a CRT who now have a plasma kuro 9G and also dont have problems with burn-in

I want the retro skin back please
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post #682 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 09:46 PM
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Well if black levels are the most important factor in your decision, it doesn't really matter how well a plasma handles burn in. The risk is always going to be there just like a CRT when it comes to burn in. I currently own a 65" plasma that I game alot on. No IR or burn in. I had a Samsung 32" HDCRT that just crapped out on me. Did lots of gaming on it and never had burn in or anything on it. Burn in will most likely happen in only extreme cases.
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post #683 of 5306 Old 07-26-2008, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney View Post

well I have a KV-32HS510 SONY CRT and I have burned in a small black line and after looking at it closely now I can see one from when it goes into 16x9 mode and one from the more than 1.78:1 dvd

so if I get the kuro 50" pro-111 and watch a lot of movies that arent 1.78:1 could I have the same problem? - or a lot of 4x3 content?


this is a huge issue for me, I have returned many LCD's (4), Plasmas (2), and DLP's (3) because the black level was crap - even on a high end sony 52" XBR5 and the Panasonic plasma it looked like crap compared to my CRT - so I havent gotten a new TV that I like yet enough to keep it so I have herd these kuro's are on-par with CRT for black levels now so maybe I want to upgrade - maybe not since I herd about kuro LCD's which wouldnt have burn-in problems but could be as dark black maybe

I am in need of some expert advice from people who like me cant stand the blacks on anything other than a CRT who now have a plasma kuro 9G and also dont have problems with burn-in

Thats odd you found panasonic to not have good blacks. Mine is the same as my sony HD CRT. I did have to adjust it a bit to get it there. I find it overall to be better than my sony CRT. Interesting.

I agree with you lcd is not there on black levels. it is not up to par in other areas also.

The kuros is king of tv's. I personally did not see a 1+ grand difference between that and my panasonic however. If you want black- it does not get much better than kuros.

If you watch more than a couple hours here and there in 4:3 you are asking for IR to happen. Movies are not that big a deal unless you watch 4 or 5 in a row. It really equals to your average usage of the tv.

Were talking about uneven aging of pixels. So use any part of your screen a whole lot more than another and the part you don't use as much over time will be brighter- maybe just a little.

The best advice I can give you is the Kuros is one of if not the best plasma they make right now. It is the most resistant to IR. panasonic is probablly almost as good there but the kuros has an edge in almost every area.

I have not heard or seen any cases of permanent IR on a panny or pio made in the last year or two. But most folks here do baby them just a little.

I don't like the thought of too much 4:3 or any bars on any plasma- I mean over 15%- 20% of total viewing time. They were meant for Blowing you away as far as hdtv goes- It's unforutnate we are still suffering from the lack of full screen programs but it is getting better all the time.

I expect the big switch to help out even more. I long for the day when 16:9 is the standard broadcast format for everyone, and those who choose to keep 4:3 can see bars top and bottom. I'm sick of seeing them on the sides. I can deal with 2.4:1.

Anyone who says CRT won't burn is wrong, ever seen an old pac man machine or something similar? But that is an extreme case. It's rare with normal use, my sony Crt has a warning about too much 4:3 in the manual. I have yet to cause more than a ghost on it though. Same with my panny plasma.
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post #684 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney View Post

well I have a KV-32HS510 SONY CRT and I have burned in a small black line and after looking at it closely now I can see one from when it goes into 16x9 mode and one from the more than 1.78:1 dvd

Generally marks on the screen from uneven wear (pillarboxing/letterboxing) shows as brighter patches, not darker ones. When you say it's a small black line, could it possibly be the aperture grille support wires? On some screens, they can be in roughly the same location as 2.35:1 black bars.

All Trinitron tubes have one, two or three wires going across the screen depending on the size to help stabilise the aperture grille. With a screen that size I'd expect to see two if not three.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ALSW View Post

Anyone who says CRT won't burn is wrong, ever seen an old pac man machine or something similar? But that is an extreme case. It's rare with normal use, my sony Crt has a warning about too much 4:3 in the manual. I have yet to cause more than a ghost on it though. Same with my panny plasma.

There's no doubt that a CRT can burn, but I have personally never seen it happen with any of my displays, even after leaving static images on them for hours on end. I have seen image retention on the Pioneers from less time with static images than any of my CRTs.



As for black levels, I was not happy with the Pioneer 8G black levels, and the screens this year from Panasonic, Samsung etc. still haven't caught up to them. I'm considering buying a 9G Pioneer, but I'm still concerned about the black levels. Even though most owners seem happy with them, most owners were happy with the 8G too
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post #685 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Generally marks on the screen from uneven wear (pillarboxing/letterboxing) shows as brighter patches, not darker ones. When you say it's a small black line, could it possibly be the aperture grille support wires? On some screens, they can be in roughly the same location as 2.35:1 black bars.

All Trinitron tubes have one, two or three wires going across the screen depending on the size to help stabilise the aperture grille. With a screen that size I'd expect to see two if not three.



There's no doubt that a CRT can burn, but I have personally never seen it happen with any of my displays, even after leaving static images on them for hours on end. I have seen image retention on the Pioneers from less time with static images than any of my CRTs.



As for black levels, I was not happy with the Pioneer 8G black levels, and the screens this year from Panasonic, Samsung etc. still haven't caught up to them. I'm considering buying a 9G Pioneer, but I'm still concerned about the black levels. Even though most owners seem happy with them, most owners were happy with the 8G too…

I have seen Burn-in on CRT's many times.
I am a manufacturing engineer for G.E. and on our production floor many of our machines have CRT monitors and just about every one that is more than a few years old has permanent burn-in. These machines show the same operation screen all the time so you can see the operation screen on them even when you turn the TV off.

You were not happy with the black levels of the 8G pioneer?
And you are concerned about the black levels of the 9G kuro?
How black do you want it? What is your reference??
Any blacker than a 9G is pretty much flat total black (zero idle luminance).
No flat panel out there is capable of hitting the black levels of the 9G. So if you are concerned about the black levels of the 9G then you can pretty much be sure that you will dislike every other flatpanel out there.
Next year will be absolute black with the 10G kuro.

To the OP,
my answer would be yes, Burn-in is about the same plasma vs CRT. The best thing is to just not worry about burn-in unless you are buying a budget plasma. If it is a newer pio, panny, or sammy then don't worry about it. Anyone who says it is an issue is probably either an LCD owner who is trying to justify his/her purchase or an LCD salesman.
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post #686 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 05:09 AM
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OK so I have seen that demo at CES with the ultra contrast kuro and a 8G kuro, the 8G looked unwatchable IMO but the prototype was just like a CRT
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/h...oncept-plasma/
so if the 9G isnt even half this it is not acceptable to me

yea it says its a 5010 not a 110 or 150 but I was told that its the same just the 110 and 150 have other things in the menu for pros

but the burn in is the worst thing I am worried about

I want the retro skin back please
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post #687 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Next year will be absolute black with the 10G kuro.

Even though it will have a Panasonic-sourced PDP module?

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post #688 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 08:11 AM
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Plasma is the only one that has this issue so the other parts of the market (that if you combine them all dwarf the Plasma market) have no problems. I doubt stations would change for such a small percentage of the market.

You are right about plasma being only a percentage of the market. The other guy is right though. Those channel logos are annoying and just stupid. Who in the world does not know what channel they are watching after they just put it on the channel.

If the case I ever forgot happened a quick push of the info button would solve that.
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post #689 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 04:14 PM
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You are right about plasma being only a percentage of the market. The other guy is right though. Those channel logos are annoying and just stupid. Who in the world does not know what channel they are watching after they just put it on the channel.

If the case I ever forgot happened a quick push of the info button would solve that.

well some people are stupid as hell and they must think it has to be there

its like those tickers - what am I sosposta read this or listen to the show? I cant do both!


but yea the 8G's blacks are unacceptable to me, I havent seen the 9G in person yet but if it is even slightly grey I cant have it

burn in is a major concern of mine since I know 3 people who have plasms that are burnt in permanently, one from only playing Madden on PS2, (you can see the score in the corner) and the others from HTPC's and the start button or the scroll bars along the side of the screen and bottom



I guess the question would be, is there a way to get the display replaced from burn in? - do they say this cant happen anymore? - burn in that is

or could I do something to the display to render it broken for the purpose of getting it replaced because of burn in - if it wont turn on can they really tell there is burn in?

I want the retro skin back please
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post #690 of 5306 Old 07-27-2008, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Even though it will have a Panasonic-sourced PDP module?

What "sourced PDP module"? Pioneer will only use Panasonic's manufacturing plant. It is still Pioneer designed glass panel, manufactured using Pioneer's know-how, driven using Pioneer's own electronics.

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Samsung Hpt4254 42 Inch Plasma Hdtv , Pioneer Pro110 Pro 110fd Pro 110fd Tv Pro110 Kuro 50 Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Th 50px75u 50 Inch 720p Plasma Hdtv , Playstation 3 160gb System
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