All you 1080p fans beware! Hail to the 768p Plasma King Baby! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
flood222's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinthar View Post

No offense, but that's the most misinformed post I've ever read on these forums.

I really don't think anyone cares about your book. In fact, if we were to give your book a title, it would be: "LOOK AT ME I CAN RANT ON THE AVS FORUMS DESPITE HAVING NO CLUE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT."

So since I've read your book, do us all a favor and read this first before posting: CNET: The Final Word on 720p vs. 1080p

Thanks.

I read the CNET article. Sounds like 1080p is the holy grail of HDTVs and if you want the best, have a large screeen or use it as a computer monitor 1080p is the way to go.

If you sit far enough away, dont want to spend the extra then 720p is fine.

His post doesn't sound too mis-informed to me?

Not to mention that the original article, on that site they say the 1080p pioneer is the best.
flood222 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

One of the main reasons I took back the Pioneer 5080 is becasue of the 720p issue. (768 whatever you want to call it).
In my book there is no question that 1080p is better that 720p. The 5080 is a great TV but the 1080p Kuro's still blow it out of the water as well as most top of the line 1080p lcd's (81f,71f,XBR4).
A 720p televison has to downscale all 1080i/p signals to fit its 720/768p resolution. This means you lose over HALF of the pixel information!! Thats alot of detail!!
And I see a noticable difference between 1080p and 720p (not huge ,but noticable). Especially when watching true 1080p.
This was especially noticable for me when Text was being displayed. The 5080 did horrible with text. It looks screen-dorrish and I can see the individual pixels.
So no matter how the blacks are, its still a 720p television

BOTTOMLINE:
YOU CAN PAINT A TURD BLACK AND CALL IT "KURO" BUT ITS STILL A TURD!
LOL.
But don't get me wrong, I am not downing the Kuro's in general. Just 720p.
I love the Pro150fd, PDP-6010fd, and the 5010fd.
But the prices are just unreasonable right now.


As soon as you said three LCD's 'blow it out of the water' you lost all credibility to me. You opinion and you are entitled to it, but roflmao.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
post #183 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
JoeProcopio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
how does the 5080 display SD, since 90% of TV is still SD......dammit, lol
December's issue of Home Theater mag has a review of the Pro-110FD, and says it is the best out there...and that the 5080 is an even better buy for it's price, even though it is 720p
JoeProcopio is offline  
post #184 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
flood222's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeProcopio View Post

how does the 5080 display SD, since 90% of TV is still SD......dammit, lol
December's issue of Home Theater mag has a review of the Pro-110FD, and says it is the best out there...and that the 5080 is an even better buy for it's price, even though it is 720p

SD sucks...lol. I dont think I watch 99% of TV, I watch select programs and they almost always have to be HD to even get my attention.
flood222 is offline  
post #185 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:56 AM
Member
 
Ub3r-L33ch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danpan View Post

What I find quite amazing (not to say a bit unfair) is that where I am in Europe, if I want a PDP- LX508 (that's the same as your 5010) I have to pay the equivalent of $8089.09 and thats without a wall mount, or anyone to properly calibrate it. The 5080 is $5700.00. Apart from laughter, are there any comments? Dan

It has something to do with the higher taxes that are paid in Europe (VAT I think? Among other things). I am no economist or tax expert but I'm pretty sure that's part of the higher cost.
Ub3r-L33ch is offline  
post #186 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 12:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
mike infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by flood222 View Post

I read the CNET article.

If you read the reviews at CNET, then you would know that on 50" displays or less at 8+ feet the benefit of 1080p is negligible if even detectable.

"Bottom line: It's almost always very difficult to see any difference--especially from farther than 8 feet away on a 50-inch TV."

Never mind that the vast majority of media out there doesn't have more detail than is resolvable at 720p....and that won't change for some time.

Quote:


His post doesn't sound too mis-informed to me?

It is mis-informed. I have tried many side by side tests with 1080p sets. It was hard for me to find any media at all that made any difference in viewing. When there was a difference, it was barely noticeable.

Quote:


Not to mention that the original article, on that site they say the 1080p pioneer is the best.

It might be best in specification, but it is not the best in value. Why would anyone pay double for an improvement that most of the time is impossible to notice?

On a 60" set? Sure...but not for the 50's.
mike infinity is offline  
post #187 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
mike infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeProcopio View Post

how does the 5080 display SD, since 90% of TV is still SD......dammit, lol

I tried (and returned) many LCDs...including the XBR4. I also tested the panny 77u. I can tell you that BY FAR SD material on the 5080 looks better than any LCD out there. It also beats the panny 77u IMO...the blacks and the processing are likely the reason.

Quote:


and that the 5080 is an even better buy for it's price, even though it is 720p

At today's prices you can take that to the bank. A no-brainer.
mike infinity is offline  
post #188 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 12:39 PM
Advanced Member
 
DPowers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyungkim View Post

We live in a dynamic world marketplace, do you really think the world is as simple as that?

If pio dropped their prices today to panny levels, what do you think panny will do next week? There will always be a disparity because companies are not as dumb as everyone thinks they are. Panny will respond by dropping their prices since that is their strength, their extensive mfg capacity. So the price parity you want will never happen.

No, I don't think the world is as simple "as that". I wish I was playing corporate buzzword bingo. I would have won with your very first line.

You missed my point. I suggested that Pioneer put out an additional line of products in addition to the Kuros that could compete at the same level (price wise) as the Panisonics. There is much more than black level and in turn CR that goes into making a Kuro more expensive. There is no reason Pioneer should drop the pricing on all of their products if people are willing to buy them. They are very high quality products. No one is disputing that.

If there were currently a Pioneer product that produced a similar CR (it is twice that of closest display) and dialed back the connections, picture adjustments (there are quite a few) and was able to price it equally to or marginally more than it's Panisonic counterpart I beleive it would become more competative in it's market segment.

You were correct. We do live in a "dynamic marketplace". My making a suggestion as to how a company might possibly gain ground on a competitor by making some marketing changes is, to it's core, the definition of being "dynamic".

So, by your rationale, Pioneer would do well by staying the course? There is more to inovation than simply creating new technology.

VanillaHD
Simple. Clean. information about high definition
DPowers is offline  
post #189 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Member
 
quarlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fort Stinkin' Desert, AZ
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

As soon as you said three LCD's 'blow it out of the water' you lost all credibility to me. You opinion and you are entitled to it, but roflmao.

Exactly. If that's true for the OP, then great ... the lack of visual acuity and discernment will mean they can save big bucks. I looked at dozens of 50"-60" sets in a half dozen different B&M stores before popping for a 6010 and there was/is *no* comparison between *any* LCD and the Kuros ... none! IMHO, of course.
quarlo is offline  
post #190 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 01:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
DPowers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

Exactly. If that's true for the OP, then great ... the lack of visual acuity and discernment will mean they can save big bucks. I looked at dozens of 50"-60" sets in a half dozen different B&M stores before popping for a 6010 and there was/is *no* comparison between *any* LCD and the Kuros ... none! IMHO, of course.

Hey buddy, watch it! You wouldn't want to start an Elite vs. Non Elite Kuro argument.

VanillaHD
Simple. Clean. information about high definition
DPowers is offline  
post #191 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 02:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
flood222's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

If you read the reviews at CNET, then you would know that on 50" displays or less at 8+ feet the benefit of 1080p is negligible if even detectable.

yep. But if you plan on using it for a PC monitor...well...Res becomes increasingly important.

I think the 5 most important factors when buying a TV don't apply to buying a monitor. Some people just can't see that. I think lots of people buy monitors with multi-purpose in mind. I know that I will retire my 1080p 42" to PC use in a few years. Then I'll get a 60" 1080p for console games and movies.

For TV/Movies 720p is fine and it does become near impossible to tell a difference.

But 1080p owners don't have to hail to any 768p "king", Im just pointing out that if you are "king" you have all the bases covered. It all comes down to use.
flood222 is offline  
post #192 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 04:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
mike infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by flood222 View Post

yep. But if you plan on using it for a PC monitor...well...Res becomes increasingly important.

That depends.

Suppose you are sitting at 8ft from a 50" display...as we are discussing here. In that case 1080p makes little difference. I experimented with gaming, etc with 1080p AND 768p at 8ft on my HTPC. Again, no visible improvements can be observed at 8ft+. Web browsing works better at 768p thanks to ineffective scaling/zoom in 1080p modes.

If you sit CLOSER than 8ft, it makes a difference. And it does make a bigger difference on a PC source than it would for video.

So to beat the dead horse...IT DEPENDS ON HOW FAR YOU SIT. PC or TV sources included. It also matters what you are doing with it. I use my HTPC mostly for watching video...and most video is still 720p or 1080i.

Quote:


I think the 5 most important factors when buying a TV don't apply to buying a monitor.

Where's the difference? The same criterion apply. If I am going to be close...as I am (1.5-2ft ft) with my 1200p 24" LCD...I want finer resolution. If I am sitting 8ft+, then 1080p makes little visible difference on a 50" display. PC or no.
mike infinity is offline  
post #193 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 05:19 PM
Member
 
ascl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I still don't understand how people cannot see the difference. My wife was saying she couldn't deal with the 4280 at 7-8 feet because of the visibility of the pixels (and I agree'd, but didn't want to influence her by suggesting it). I agree that the difference between a 720p set and 1080p set for resolving the image is small, but its the visibility of the pixels that drives me nuts... and I dont understand how people can't see the difference, especially on the bigger sets!

Anyway, just my rant, obviously everyone is different and I truely wish it didn't bother me -- I'd have a 5080 right now if it didn't!
ascl is offline  
post #194 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 06:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
cjm7c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascl View Post

I still don't understand how people cannot see the difference. My wife was saying she couldn't deal with the 4280 at 7-8 feet because of the visibility of the pixels (and I agree'd, but didn't want to influence her by suggesting it). I agree that the difference between a 720p set and 1080p set for resolving the image is small, but its the visibility of the pixels that drives me nuts... and I dont understand how people can't see the difference, especially on the bigger sets!

Anyway, just my rant, obviously everyone is different and I truely wish it didn't bother me -- I'd have a 5080 right now if it didn't!

No offense, but "seeing the pixels" at this distance is extremely difficult for most people. On a 50" 1366x768 display the pixels are approximately a 1/32" by 1/32" if we assume they're placed end-to-end. That's the size of dot made with a ball point pen on a piece of paper.

Many times big box stores have the sharpness control turned up way too high. This can create the illusion that "pixels" are visible -- especially on text -- from large distances. The artifacts such edge enhancement creates are much larger than the size of an individual pixel.
cjm7c is offline  
post #195 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 06:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
BriS2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeProcopio View Post

how does the 5080 display SD, since 90% of TV is still SD......dammit, lol
December's issue of Home Theater mag has a review of the Pro-110FD, and says it is the best out there...and that the 5080 is an even better buy for it's price, even though it is 720p

I was REALLY impressed with SD on my 5010. It looked 100x better than the 46" Sony XBR3 LCD that I previously owned but in general SD looks like crap on any LCD panel. But on the Kuro, SD looks AMAZING and close as you can get to CRT quality. I would say SD looks ever so slightly better on the 768p than in 1080p.

The 5080 is mighty amazing for it's price/performance. I will buy this panel instantly when it drops in price in my area to match the current US MSRP.

Pioneer KURO PDP-5010FD 1080p plasma
Pioneer SC-1523-K Dolby PLIIz +THX 9.2 surround
Sony BDP-S790 bluray player
BriS2K is offline  
post #196 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 07:10 PM
Member
 
ascl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjm7c View Post

No offense, but "seeing the pixels" at this distance is extremely difficult for most people. On a 50" 1366x768 display the pixels are approximately a 1/32" by 1/32" if we assume they're placed end-to-end. That's the size of dot made with a ball point pen on a piece of paper.

Many times big box stores have the sharpness control turned up way too high. This can create the illusion that "pixels" are visible -- especially on text -- from large distances. The artifacts such edge enhancement creates are much larger than the size of an individual pixel.

No offense taken at all. I was careful to make it clear it was *my* opinion and not fact

Perhaps coming from a small (32 inch) 1080i CRT has made me more sensitive to it. Interesting comment about edge enhancement, I would like to see an example of that, but I dont think thats what I am seeing. Would that make the gaps between the pixels more apparent?
ascl is offline  
post #197 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 07:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
cjm7c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascl View Post

No offense taken at all. I was careful to make it clear it was *my* opinion and not fact

Perhaps coming from a small (32 inch) 1080i CRT has made me more sensitive to it. Interesting comment about edge enhancement, I would like to see an example of that, but I dont think thats what I am seeing. Would that make the gaps between the pixels more apparent?

No, if you're seeing the gaps between the pixels, then edge enhancement is not the culprit. If you see this when you look at a 768p screen then you actually are seeing the pixels .
cjm7c is offline  
post #198 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 07:49 PM
Member
 
Allen050's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I wish I could see that well. Or maybe not, I have the 5080.




Allen050 is offline  
post #199 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 08:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 4,495
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 166
I think this is a problem of descriptive terminology. I don't think you are "seeing the pixels". But if you are stating that you can see the screen door grid-like pattern which separates the pixels, or to put it in another way, the gaps between the pixels, then yes, these are viable descriptions and this effect can be more noticeable to some than to others on a 768p panel such as the 5080. From 7.5ft., I can see it. Any further, no. The SDE (screen door effect) disappears for me beyond that distance and I think I'm fairly typical of the norm in this regard. For some, this effect disappears at 5ft., sometimes even closer.

But there are exceptions, of course. People with more acute vision or sensitivity to the effect. Randy, one of the well known posters around here and a Panny 1080p 42" plasma owner claims to be able to see this effect from as far back as about 12ft. He's out of the norm in this regard, off the charts in terms of visual acuity. And for those who are like him, he has to take the hit in the pocketbook because of it. If he had his druthers, he would get a larger 50" 768p plasma. But because of his ability to see SDE from further back, his situation dictated getting a 1080p panel, which meant having to compromise on size, going for a 42" to find similar pricing to what a larger 50" 768p plasma might have run him.

If ascl and his wife are viewing these panels in typical aisles where your distance from said panel is just a few feet, maybe 6-7ft. tops, then yes they could well be seeing this effect from those close distances. The question, as always, comes down to just how far you plan on seating yourself from the panel under typical circumstances. If it's within the range that your own eyes can see the grid pattern separation of pixels, then you will be forced to go for a 1080p panel, and your pocketbook will be poorer for it. But sometimes ya gotta do, etc..

The variance of discernible resolution differences between 768p vs 1080p is much less of an issue than the screen door effect issue for the vast majority of people.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
CruelInventions is online now  
post #200 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:11 PM
Member
 
ascl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

The variance of discernible resolution differences between 768p vs 1080p is much less of an issue than the screen door effect issue for the vast majority of people.

Excellent, thats what I was thinking (and this thread was confusing me about). Thanks very much for the post.

EDIT: And I think the long and the short of this is we will need to get a panny, maybe the 46 inch 800 when its out since our viewing distance is only 7-8 feet, which is what distance we were looking at the 4280 in the shop. Pity Pioneer dont make a 1080 at 42 or 46 inches.
ascl is offline  
post #201 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
kyungkim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPowers View Post

No, I don't think the world is as simple "as that". I wish I was playing corporate buzzword bingo. I would have won with your very first line.

You missed my point. I suggested that Pioneer put out an additional line of products in addition to the Kuros that could compete at the same level (price wise) as the Panisonics. There is much more than black level and in turn CR that goes into making a Kuro more expensive. There is no reason Pioneer should drop the pricing on all of their products if people are willing to buy them. They are very high quality products. No one is disputing that.

If there were currently a Pioneer product that produced a similar CR (it is twice that of closest display) and dialed back the connections, picture adjustments (there are quite a few) and was able to price it equally to or marginally more than it's Panisonic counterpart I beleive it would become more competative in it's market segment.

You were correct. We do live in a "dynamic marketplace". My making a suggestion as to how a company might possibly gain ground on a competitor by making some marketing changes is, to it's core, the definition of being "dynamic".

So, by your rationale, Pioneer would do well by staying the course? There is more to inovation than simply creating new technology.

This is exactly what pio has done with the 5080. Its as close as they are willing to to go price wise to the pannie and it has the cr you are looking for.
The 5080 is their "loss leader" as it were.

I dont want to say your argument is simple, but you are ignoring a whole slew of factors. Its not as simple as dropping their price or coming out with a new line to compete. You are talking about a complete reworking of their mfg capacity, business model, supply chain, marketing model etc etc. (make sure you pickup a new bingo card btw Can you imagine with the price drop, all pio plasmas will be sold out everywhere.

For whatever reason, pio has refused to play the volume game because either they cannot or will not. In order to do so, they would have to invest a sh1tload of money to do it, they can't do it overnight.

Not to mention the risk from pannie, since as soon as pio invests to do this, pannie would probably follow with a price drop of their own, causing more of these posts to show up here wondering why pio isnt dropping their prices again or coming up with another line etc etc.

Pio can't/won't play pannies game. Whether you like it or not, pannie is better at that game, capacity wise, retailer wise, marketing wise. If pio plays it, they would probably lose.

Look I want pio to play the price/volume game, I would love to get another kuro for the bedroom w/o a 2nd mortgage. I hate elitist companies (no pun intended) like apple, bmw etc. But I can see why these companies do what they do.

Whether it'll work with pioneer in the future, I really dont know.
What is certain is that for pio to do what you (and I) want them to do is a much bigger risk and much more complicated than whats been posted here.
kyungkim is offline  
post #202 of 319 Old 01-22-2008, 09:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chadmak09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,067
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Actually the settings I used were the ones reccomended here. Along with many others. Still got the DIM image (but nice blacks). The truth of the matter is that the only thing that the Pioneer has over the A 1080p LCD XBR4 is Blacks today. And even Cnet admits in thier Review of the XBR4 that the Blacks of the Sony are "mighty close" to the pioneer. Also, Cnet agrees the Color accuracy is better on the Sony on thier review of the XBR4. So you might want to let them know they are "misinformed" or accuse them of never owning the TV. Also, The images are very Dim on the pioneer (which is why such deep blacks). You have to close the blinds just to get a bright vibrant picture (and still the brightness doesn't compare with LCD's). Pioneer only has a little bit better Blacks to offer. Thats it! And low par color accuracy with especially greens. And my god, there are no user-menu fine color temperature controls at all!! And as far as motion and judder problems, you might want to read Cnets comment on the review of the XBR4. The said that the 120Hz of the XBR4 SEVERELY outclassed the pioneers smooth mode (thats Cnets words, not mine). The pioneer has DIM images, Burn in risk, its not even a real TRUE HDTV (inferior 720p, which makes a noticable difference no matter how many 720p owners will tell you it doesn't), has a serious glare from its heavily reflective screen, and many other problems. You can't play games or surf the net on the pioneer without having to worry yourself to death about burn in and do periodic Preventive maintenance (Especially during first 100 hours, which is a pain in the butt and Pioneer will not cover burn -in under warranty) The Pioneer has to downscale even a simple 1080i signal to fits its native resolution. Its obvious that this TV just doesn't cut it for todays technology and todays multi-user customers.
Let me ask a question:
If Resolution is so far down on the list of importance then WHY DID WE ALL GO HIGH DEFINITION???
The black levels, color depth, contrast,etc. were better on the older Non-High Def. CRT's most used back in the day. SO why did we go High-Def?? Answer: Resolution!
So why all of a sudden is resolution so unimportant??
I myself would rather just get the 1080p 5010 or 6010. Which I absolutely love by the way! In fact, I will be getting a 1080p Kuro soon. But 720p doesn't do it for me. I would say in 2-3 years most HDTVs will be 1080p. More and more media and sources are becoming availible in 1080p. I don't see cable/sattelite going 1080p anytime soon but they are 1080i which has to be downscaled on the 5080. I mean really! Even Pioneers newer models are pretty much all going 1080p, So is that just "hype".
I am going to get a 1080p Kuro. Which is much better than the 5080.
I just wish Pioneer would do a better distribution job. So we could by a pioneer from crutchfield or another store beside best buy. I talked to a rep. at crutchfield and asked him if they could special order me a Kuro and he said the have dropped Pioneer totally from thier Audio video because of thier inability to meet ship dates provide the products in time for the customers. which sucks.
Here is a picture the represents the difference in resolutions in case some are having a hard time understanding
[IMG]http://render-2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3Axxr%3D0-qpDofRt7Pf7mrPfrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQnJxl Plx0onxv8uOc5xQQQGJG0GalJGlqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gX0QQ0a% 7CRup6Jal%7C/of=50,590,358[/IMG]
chadmak09 is offline  
post #203 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 12:09 AM
Newbie
 
manishp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Actually the settings I used were the ones reccomended here. Along with many others. Still got the DIM image (but nice blacks). The truth of the matter is that the only thing that the Pioneer has over the A 1080p LCD XBR4 is Blacks today. And even Cnet admits in thier Review of the XBR4 that the Blacks of the Sony are "mighty close" to the pioneer. Also, Cnet agrees the Color accuracy is better on the Sony on thier review of the XBR4. So you might want to let them know they are "misinformed" or accuse them of never owning the TV. Also, The images are very Dim on the pioneer (which is why such deep blacks). You have to close the blinds just to get a bright vibrant picture (and still the brightness doesn't compare with LCD's). Pioneer only has a little bit better Blacks to offer. Thats it! And low par color accuracy with especially greens. And my god, there are no user-menu fine color temperature controls at all!! And as far as motion and judder problems, you might want to read Cnets comment on the review of the XBR4. The said that the 120Hz of the XBR4 SEVERELY outclassed the pioneers smooth mode (thats Cnets words, not mine). The pioneer has DIM images, Burn in risk, its not even a real TRUE HDTV (inferior 720p, which makes a noticable difference no matter how many 720p owners will tell you it doesn't), has a serious glare from its heavily reflective screen, and many other problems. You can't play games or surf the net on the pioneer without having to worry yourself to death about burn in and do periodic Preventive maintenance (Especially during first 100 hours, which is a pain in the butt and Pioneer will not cover burn -in under warranty) The Pioneer has to downscale even a simple 1080i signal to fits its native resolution. Its obvious that this TV just doesn't cut it for todays technology and todays multi-user customers.
Let me ask a question:
If Resolution is so far down on the list of importance then WHY DID WE ALL GO HIGH DEFINITION???
The black levels, color depth, contrast,etc. were better on the older Non-High Def. CRT's most used back in the day. SO why did we go High-Def?? Answer: Resolution!
So why all of a sudden is resolution so unimportant??
I myself would rather just get the 1080p 5010 or 6010. Which I absolutely love by the way! In fact, I will be getting a 1080p Kuro soon. But 720p doesn't do it for me. I would say in 2-3 years most HDTVs will be 1080p. More and more media and sources are becoming availible in 1080p. I don't see cable/sattelite going 1080p anytime soon but they are 1080i which has to be downscaled on the 5080. I mean really! Even Pioneers newer models are pretty much all going 1080p, So is that just "hype".
I am going to get a 1080p Kuro. Which is much better than the 5080.
I just wish Pioneer would do a better distribution job. So we could by a pioneer from crutchfield or another store beside best buy. I talked to a rep. at crutchfield and asked him if they could special order me a Kuro and he said the have dropped Pioneer totally from thier Audio video because of thier inability to meet ship dates provide the products in time for the customers. which sucks.
Here is a picture the represents the difference in resolutions in case some are having a hard time understanding
[IMG]http://render-2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3Axxr%3D0-qpDofRt7Pf7mrPfrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQnJxl Plx0onxv8uOc5xQQQGJG0GalJGlqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gX0QQ0a% 7CRup6Jal%7C/of=50,590,358[/IMG]

The following is a direct quote from the CNET review:

" The Sony looked very sharp on all scenes, although not noticeably more- or less-so than any of the TVs we watched alongside--including the 1,366x768 resolution PDP-5080HD, which looked every bit as sharp as the 1080p Sony."

Also the enitire article predicates the Sony's performance being excellent for an LCD, but not being good as the best Plasma's.
manishp is offline  
post #204 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 03:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chadmak09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,067
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by flood222 View Post

I read the CNET article. Sounds like 1080p is the holy grail of HDTVs and if you want the best, have a large screeen or use it as a computer monitor 1080p is the way to go.

If you sit far enough away, dont want to spend the extra then 720p is fine.

His post doesn't sound too mis-informed to me?

Not to mention that the original article, on that site they say the 1080p pioneer is the best.

Exactly, He only saw what he wanted to see in that article. the article actually backs up the fact that 1080p is superior. The fact that 1080p is superior is not at question in that article. The question is: Is 1080p worth the extra dough?
Answer: To some YES to some NO.
Also the article also talks about the screen door effect you get with 720p and how you won't get it with 1080p. As well as 720p being bad as a computer monitor (which alot of people want the flexibility of), and other issues.
But I am sure he read past that part because they were "rantiing" or just "misinformed".
This same thing has happened with technology for years and years.
When CD's first came out the die hard cassette tape owners were screaming "you can't hear any difference". The The VHS fans claimed "I can't see much difference with a DVD".
Eventually the fact that one technology was superior to the other was evident so as these newer technologies became more availible and everyone switched to them. Which is what is happening now with 1080p. Most new HDTV's (at least the top end ones) are going 1080p. This is true with both Plasma and LCD.
I can see buying a 720p if the screen is no bigger than 40 inches or so, but at 50 inches the detail loss is evident in 1080i/ip sources. Sure the Contrast, black levels, color saturation, etc of the 5080 help mask this detail loss but its still there.
chadmak09 is offline  
post #205 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 08:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
DPowers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
chadmak09

You are also guilty of seeing what supports your side...as confusing as that rant was.

In addition to subpar black levels XBRs also have many more issues. You know that Kuros have over double the contrast ratio don't you? Believe me I looked at everything and read every review. They exhibit subpar SD processing. Bad off axis viewing. Game lag. Clouding. And no one has every said that Pioneers color reproduction was wildly innacurate. I don't even know where you got that.

You are comparing the virtues of two technologies and not the displays themselves.

One thing I find strange, while you bring up color accuracy and fine tuning, you also talk about the overall brightness of the two displays. On one point you worry about accurate color, but on the other you want to go as bright as possible with total disregard to properly calibrated light output. Why would you want to only achieve accuracy in one portion of your calibration process? Be it the Pioneer or any other top brand of plasma, they all achieve higher than required light output post calibration. But if you want to blind yourself, by all means...

Even as a Panisonic plasma and an LCD owner I can say with full confidence that the Kuro line has set a standard that is not even remotely at risk of being touched by any LCD on the market today.

LCD's are great for small secondary displays, but they are not and may never be ready for dedicated big screen prime time duty.

VanillaHD
Simple. Clean. information about high definition
DPowers is offline  
post #206 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 08:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I can see buying a 720p if the screen is no bigger than 40 inches or so, but at 50 inches the detail loss is evident in 1080i/ip sources. Sure the Contrast, black levels, color saturation, etc of the 5080 help mask this detail loss but its still there.

While the 768p kuro's may lose some detail, it still creates a better overall picture than any 1080p non-kuro panel...easily. - imo(at ~7' or more)
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
post #207 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

The truth of the matter is that the only thing that the Pioneer has over the A 1080p LCD XBR4 is Blacks today. And even Cnet admits in thier Review of the XBR4 that the Blacks of the Sony are "mighty close" to the pioneer. Also, Cnet agrees the Color accuracy is better on the Sony on thier review of the XBR4. So you might want to let them know they are "misinformed" or accuse them of never owning the TV. Also, The images are very Dim on the pioneer (which is why such deep blacks). You have to close the blinds just to get a bright vibrant picture (and still the brightness doesn't compare with LCD's). Pioneer only has a little bit better Blacks to offer. Thats it! And low par color accuracy with especially greens. And my god, there are no user-menu fine color temperature controls at all!! And as far as motion and judder problems, you might want to read Cnets comment on the review of the XBR4. The said that the 120Hz of the XBR4 SEVERELY outclassed the pioneers smooth mode [/IMG]

Color accuracy to the XBR?
Less motion blur on an LCD, nevermind what type, lol?
Blacks barely better?
Blacks are the only thing the Pio has over the XBR4?


I didn't realize Pio's had a mind numbing brightness that washes out their color.
I also didn't know that the Pio's have flashlighting, ghosting, clouding and smearing.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
post #208 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 08:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
mike infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

And even Cnet admits in thier Review of the XBR4 that the Blacks of the Sony are "mighty close" to the pioneer.

'Mighty close' is a subjective criterion. There is no contradiction here. Some say the kuro looks washed out and are only happy if black=0 light.

Besides, it isn't just that kuro has visibly better blacks...its also its nice linear ramp across the DR that makes the colour reproduction that much better across the board.

Quote:


Also, The images are very Dim on the pioneer (which is why such deep blacks).

No. Look at peek luminance levels. They are dim relative to LCD on white fields. But on mixed media the levels are comparable.

Quote:


The said that the 120Hz of the XBR4 SEVERELY outclassed the pioneers smooth mode (thats Cnets words, not mine).

They used the word 'Severely'?

Yes, the sony standard judder buster works well. Unfortunately the motion blur on the sony was HORRIBLE. Something CNET doesn't test...and something 120Hz doesn't change. The 'enhanced' mode on the sony made everything look like it was shot with a handycam....and it is of little value over the smooth kuro mode (I wouldn't use either one). I would say that the standard kuro mode is pretty much on par with the sony standard mode. More, judder is less of an issue on plasmas anyway because they don't have 'sample and hold'. Turn the judder busters off on both displays and you will see how much better plasmas do in that department. Thats what really matters...rendering the video as naturally as possible.

And, BTW, the colour reproduction across the DR is better on any plasma thanks to blacks. You would notice it right away on a side by side comparison like I did. The first time i tested a plasma I was blown away by the dark area colour reproduction. The sony did well in brights, but the colour in the dark areas looked awful relative to plasma.

Quote:


If Resolution is so far down on the list of importance then WHY DID WE ALL GO HIGH DEFINITION???

We go high definition to get better detail on big screens relative to viewing distance. Once you hit the limit of resolvable detail in either the eye or the media GOING HIGHER IS OF LITTLE BENEFIT.

Thats why the improvement from 480p to 720p is remarkable at 8ft on a 50" display. But 720p to 1080p is barely detectable at that distance. Thats exactly what all the reviews...including the CNET reviews... say as well.
mike infinity is offline  
post #209 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 08:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
DPowers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I need to find out the name of that forum member who did all of the in home comparisons. First, he bought an 81 and 71 series Samsung and mounted one on top of the other. The 81 was supposed to be the Kuro killer...but wasn't. He kept the 71.

He then purchased an XBR4 and mounted that along with the 71. He kept the 71. Eventually, due to some other problems with the 71 series he exchanged that for another display. One that he swears by and owns to this day....the 5080....suprise!

Found it...sharpjunkie is his name. From all of my reading and research some of the best in home, side by side comparisons with complete disregard to label whoring or fanboism. It was a long road that led him to the 5080.

VanillaHD
Simple. Clean. information about high definition
DPowers is offline  
post #210 of 319 Old 01-23-2008, 08:58 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
D-Nice is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off