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post #121 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I agree, cpcat.

liquidsense, if television looks great, but blue-ray does not, I'd say you just narrowed the issue down to the PS3, HDMI cable or your eyes. Again, the fact that Blackhawk Down looked terrible as well tells me something. And the fact that SM3 was rated in the reference picture quality category in the link I provided...something is up.

Try swapping the HDMI cable between your PS3 and cable/Sat. box. If you've got a buddy with the PS3, have him bring it by and try his.

Finally, is pwm noise the only issue you have? And when you say pwm noise, do you mean a fuzziness that looks like ants crawling across the screen?

Nuance, can the ps3 really be problematic such that it would create a discrete problem like this on blurays, but otherwise have games look good (e.g., Ratchet and Clank)? -- Well, maybe the problem isn't so discrete....the whole bluray looked bad.

I'm not entirely sure if my understanding of pwm is correct. I most see it on solid colors, in darker scenes. Yes, it kind of looks like crawling ants, but I would characterize it more as graininess that seems to be somewhat shimmering.

Also, I tried swapping between my two cables, as well as trying different hdmi inputs on the back of the tv. It did not make a difference. And I do not have the option of trying someone else's ps3. I don't even know anyone near me that has one.

I did however, take multiple pictures with my camera until I finally found one that looked as close as I could possibly get to the actual look of the scene.

What I noticed when I first watched it was how the walls to the left of the aunt's head were exhibiting what I thought was pwm. Then I just thought, jeez, I mean, even her face is not even close to what I'm experiencing on television broadcast. This is an extremely close representation of what I am seeing on my screen. Doesn't this look extremely grainy?

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post #122 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 04:08 PM
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I'd suspect what you are seeing is on the disc. There's alot of variability in the relative amount of film grain, noise, etc. you see with both BD and HD DVD. "The look and sound of perfect" doesn't always hold true. Watch some more movies and I think you'll be convinced.
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post #123 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 04:57 PM
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Looks like film grain to me.
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post #124 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

Looks like film grain to me.

And an over saturation of red, unless its the camera. /shrug
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post #125 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I can't see how using RGB (full or limited) would add or subtract any "crispness" unless you are referring to an overly low black level setting which hasn't been adjusted for. You can do the same thing simply by over-lowering the brightness on the display (not that I'd recommend it). You might notice a limitation of overall contrast assuming you haven't set it up correctly however. For example, if you are watching a movie with RGB full settings you might notice subtle losses in high white details.

I was refering to being washed out using RGB Limited, and "crispness" of color using Full.... Granted the difference is subtle but for me, its there. I should have stated it differently though. My bad.
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post #126 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 07:34 PM
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Also, I posted question in the Kuro settings thread with no response yet, thought I'd try here as well. I am wanting to adjust out the red push from my 5080's "Low" color temp. Anyone know how to adjust the Low temp in the SM? /cough um.... anyone?
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post #127 of 176 Old 02-16-2008, 09:50 PM
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Liquid, I just got through SM3 and it is an excellent film to disc transfer. No grain that was noticeable by my wife or myself. Just thought I would let you know.


I did notice something in your settings you posted. You are using Low Color temp... If I use Low, I get way too much red push just like in your screen shot. For the sake of narrowing down the issue, try using Mid and High and see if it does not improve the image. From that photo, it looks like you have wayyyyyy too much red push. But as I said earlier, may be the camera, or even my monitor, but I don't think so.
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post #128 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrax View Post

Liquid, I just got through SM3 and it is an excellent film to disc transfer. No grain that was noticeable by my wife or myself. Just thought I would let you know.


I did notice something in your settings you posted. You are using Low Color temp... If I use Low, I get way too much red push just like in your screen shot. For the sake of narrowing down the issue, try using Mid and High and see if it does not improve the image. From that photo, it looks like you have wayyyyyy too much red push. But as I said earlier, may be the camera, or even my monitor, but I don't think so.

My computer monitor is calibrated and she's very very red in that picture. I'm hoping it's just the picture that's causing that or bad settings. Also, I've only ever watching spiderman 3 on a panasonic 50PZ700u from about 7 feet away, and the movie does have grain. Not huge blocking artifacts like in those pics (which I assume is the camera), but grain nonetheless.
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post #129 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrax View Post

I was refering to being washed out using RGB Limited, and "crispness" of color using Full.... Granted the difference is subtle but for me, its there. I should have stated it differently though. My bad.

This is exactly what I was getting at.
Switching from limited to full remaps the level of total black. If you have calibrated using YCbCr/ RGB limited then switch to RGB Full on the ps3 it will be like immediately lowering the brightness setting by several notches. This give the illusion of a richer image when the picture is bright and colorful but it's not correct and it destroys shadow details. The best thing with the ps3 appears to be using YCbCr for movies with superwhite on and RGB limited for games.
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post #130 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrax View Post

Liquid, I just got through SM3 and it is an excellent film to disc transfer. No grain that was noticeable by my wife or myself. Just thought I would let you know.


.

It's possible that if you are watching with RGB full and haven't compensated properly then there's grain but you just aren't seeing it. This illustrates a reason why standards are beneficial. Without standards, the ability to make valid comparisons is compromised.
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post #131 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidsense View Post

. . .
I did however, take multiple pictures with my camera until I finally found one that looked as close as I could possibly get to the actual look of the scene.

What I noticed when I first watched it was how the walls to the left of the aunt's head were exhibiting what I thought was pwm. Then I just thought, jeez, I mean, even her face is not even close to what I'm experiencing on television broadcast. This is an extremely close representation of what I am seeing on my screen. Doesn't this look extremely grainy?


Thanks for all the input...

First off, I do notice that the picture has a lot of red push. In that regard, it is not an accurate depiction of what I'm seeing -- at least with respect to color. But it is accurate wrt the graininess.

Second, I am using a crap ass thinkpad laptop monitor, so I have no idea how this picture is looking on all your monitors.

Finally, I spoke with three individuals that have ps3, spiderman 3, and some form of HDTV. None of these people are videophiles like the community here is, but they all certainly have eyes. And to my surprise, all three of them said that spiderman 3 looked very grainy on their tvs too (1080p sammy lcd, 720p projector, 720p sammy plasma). Whereas, other blurays looked great.

Terrax, the aunt/ring scene didn't look grainy at all for you and your wife? None at all?

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop trying to figure out whats wrong, and wait until I get my other blurays - particularly Planet Earth, and see what that looks like. Thanks again.
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post #132 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

It's possible that if you are watching with RGB full and haven't compensated properly then there's grain but you just aren't seeing it. This illustrates a reason why standards are beneficial. Without standards, the ability to make valid comparisons is compromised.

I understand exactly what you are saying, but ...... When setting the PS3 to YCbCr/ RGB limited - 5080 to Color-3 (which is correct as both have to be set together) then compare to the PS3 set to RGB/RGB Full - 5080 to Color-4 you should not see but a very very subtle difference in the image..... and I dare say that most people would argue that they see no difference at all. But..... it is there none the less. In this, I am no talking about the screen image having an washed out look = that only happens if the PS3 or 360 is set to YCbCr/ RGB limited or RGB/RGB Full and not making the correct setting of Color depth of the 5080 i.e. Color-3 for YCbCr/ RGB limited or Color-4 for RGB/RGB Full. If that happens, then yes you will in fact be dimming/washing out the screen image. But not crushing Blacks. The set-up of my display is neither crushing Blacks or compromising Shadow detail, unless one wants a totally blown out bright picture where even the areas that are intended to be in total shadow and not very well seen, can be.

The only areas of SM3 that have grain visible that I thought stood out were in the black and white rememberence scenes where its showing Parkers Uncle being killed which does appear to be intended and not introduced by some outside factor due to equipment/settings.

Thats my take on it. And I'm describing how I like my images set-up. Could be different from everyone elses I suppose.
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post #133 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidsense View Post

Thanks for all the input...

First off, I do notice that the picture has a lot of red push. In that regard, it is not an accurate depiction of what I'm seeing -- at least with respect to color. But it is accurate wrt the graininess.

Second, I am using a crap ass thinkpad laptop monitor, so I have no idea how this picture is looking on all your monitors.

Finally, I spoke with three individuals that have ps3, spiderman 3, and some form of HDTV. None of these people are videophiles like the community here is, but they all certainly have eyes. And to my surprise, all three of them said that spiderman 3 looked very grainy on their tvs too (1080p sammy lcd, 720p projector, 720p sammy plasma). Whereas, other blurays looked great.

Terrax, the aunt/ring scene didn't look grainy at all for you and your wife? None at all?

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop trying to figure out whats wrong, and wait until I get my other blurays - particularly Planet Earth, and see what that looks like. Thanks again.


The movie "300" has grain, which is intentional. SM3 on my 5080 only appears to have grain in the black and white scenes I mentioned above. Now with that said........ Sure, I can see bit of video noise that is apparent no matter what is on screen, but that is not grain.
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post #134 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I can't see how using RGB (full or limited) would add or subtract any "crispness" unless you are referring to an overly low black level setting which hasn't been adjusted for. You can do the same thing simply by over-lowering the brightness on the display (not that I'd recommend it). You might notice a limitation of overall contrast assuming you haven't set it up correctly however. For example, if you are watching a movie with RGB full settings you might notice subtle losses in high white details.

I went back and read what I typed and........ I understand now that what was in my head, and what came out of my fingers were two different things. Thats what I get for trying to type while in a hurry. What I was going for should have read more like this.

I will add that if you want a crisper, higher contrast picture, you will need to make sure when using RGB and RGB Full for Games and movies that the correct color depth is selected within the 5080 HDMI input option. And or when using YCbCr/ RGB limited, again the correct setting must be used. If not, then you will end up with a washed out picture.

Sorry I did not put my thoughts to words my accurately, and for any confusion.

And cpcat, thank you for pointing this out..... my bad.
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post #135 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 12:51 PM
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Anyone with a Pro110/150 and a 360 (HDMI) got some settings to share?
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post #136 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrax View Post

Also, I posted question in the Kuro settings thread with no response yet, thought I'd try here as well. I am wanting to adjust out the red push from my 5080's "Low" color temp. Anyone know how to adjust the Low temp in the SM? /cough um.... anyone?

Remember when I told you to try it earlier? Well, if you want to know how, PM me. Oh...I also posted it in the Kuro settings thread like 3 or 4 times now. It's around there somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrax View Post

The movie "300" has grain, which is intentional. SM3 on my 5080 only appears to have grain in the black and white scenes I mentioned above. Now with that said........ Sure, I can see bit of video noise that is apparent no matter what is on screen, but that is not grain.

True. I think it looks cool, but only paired with that movie.

Liquidsense -

I actually got to watch Spiderman 3 today (it came with my bro's PS3). The movie looked great, so I don't know what to tell you. After dinner I'll put it back in and skip to the ring scene. I'll post my thoughts later.

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post #137 of 176 Old 02-17-2008, 04:29 PM
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"Remember when I told you to try it earlier? Well, if you want to know how, PM me. Oh...I also posted it in the Kuro settings thread like 3 or 4 times now. It's around there somewhere. "


Ah...... Okies cool. Thanks man.
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post #138 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 08:57 AM
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Here's how to get into the SM and adjust the RGB settings. Please note, I will not be held responsible for what you do when you get in there and start poking around/changing things. This only applies for the 5080HD (I haven't tried it on the 5010 or 6010). Finally, my recommended settings only apply to the 5080HD.

To get into the service menu:
With the TV off on your remote hit the display button and wait 3-5 seconds. Then hit left, up, left, right and then power the TV on.

Once in the SM hit "Mute" until you see the menu called "Panel Factory (+)." Hit "Enter" and use the up or down arrow to navigate until you see "Panel-2 ADJ (+)." Hit "Enter" and use the up and down arrows to scroll through all the RGB controls. Use the left and right arrows to change the values. When finished, hit the "Home Menu" button to exit the SM.

Enjoy!

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post #139 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 09:04 AM
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Thank you Nuance,

Which settings do we adjust and what are the recommended settings? Are you using settings that you "see" that looks good, or are these taken from an ISF Calibrated set?

Thank you!
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post #140 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrax View Post

Also, I posted question in the Kuro settings thread with no response yet, thought I'd try here as well. I am wanting to adjust out the red push from my 5080's "Low" color temp. Anyone know how to adjust the Low temp in the SM? /cough um.... anyone?

From what I have gathered, the SM adjustments apply to ALL Color Temp selections so I dunno if its possible or not.

Can I ask why you are using LOW for Color temp? I feel its too red and MID really allows me to get better fleshtones and an overall balance. Low is the worst of the three choices, IMO.
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post #141 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 12:48 PM
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Nuance any chance you could post a screen shot of the RGB settings screen.

Also, some ISF's report that Pioneer has told them NOT to adjust the low end settings on non Elite models, it can damage the set.


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post #142 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorts View Post

Thank you Nuance,

Which settings do we adjust and what are the recommended settings? Are you using settings that you "see" that looks good, or are these taken from an ISF Calibrated set?

Thank you!

My TV was ISF calibrated, so I'm not going to share service menu settings (don't want to piss of any calibrators), but I will suggest a R-High setting of around 230 if you use the "Low" color temp and use the same User or Movie settings that I do (Movie settings are in the first post of this thread and are actually what I've been using for months, but I use a color of -1). And my "User" mode settings have been posted in the Kuro settings thread a number of times. You may want to try D-Nice's reference settings for the 5080HD as well (first page of the Kuro Settings thread), then lower the R-High to around 230.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikey View Post

From what I have gathered, the SM adjustments apply to ALL Color Temp selections so I dunno if its possible or not.

Can I ask why you are using LOW for Color temp? I feel its too red and MID really allows me to get better fleshtones and an overall balance. Low is the worst of the three choices, IMO.

Minus the Red Push, Low is the closest to D65 out of the box. And from what I've read and been told by calibrators, it's also the ideal color to use for ISF calibration.

Oh, and yes, the SM adjustments apply to all color temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLT View Post

Nuance any chance you could post a screen shot of the RGB settings screen.

Also, some ISF's report that Pioneer has told them NOT to adjust the low end settings on non Elite models, it can damage the set.

I'd love to help out, but see my post above.

You are correct; you should not adjust the RGB low settings per Pioneer. I actually have one Low setting that was adjust a notch or two, but that was before Pioneer made the announcement. Now adays calibrators don't use the Low settings (unless they don't know what they're doing or just don't care). Honestly, though, I don't see how it could ruin the TV.

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post #143 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 01:25 PM
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Thanks Nuance for your willingness to help. This is information we should all have, but I understand the hesitation to provide to people who are more or less just tinkering around, as they can certainly render their set inoperable.

One VERY IMPORTANT thing to note:

The 1 year Pioneer MFR Warranty is considered VOID if you enter the SM. Yes, even if it was professionally calibrated.

One AVSr found this out the hard way. The Pio tech came out and discovered his sets SM had been tweaked and doc'd the problem as a result of this. Would the tech have known if he set all his settings back? Not sure....

I'm flying w/o a warranty right now (except the mfr warranty)... so i'm a little scared... just thought i'd share this with anyone thinking about "adjusting" their pic in the SM.
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post #144 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 01:29 PM
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I've heard that.... but how do they know a previous service tech didn't change something? IF it is true that they would void the warranty, then they made it way too easy to get into.
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post #145 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 04:15 PM
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This did actually happen - I know the guy. However, I don't know if they can tell you've entered the SM. That's a question for D-Nice.

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post #146 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 04:23 PM
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Could also be a counter in the SM to track how many times it was accessed?

I'm quite happy with the 6010's colors now on low, just with D-Nices settings.
I came from an Samsung LCD that no matter what I tried its skintones were off.

So I don't think I'll be tempted to make any SM changes for some time.


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post #147 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 04:27 PM
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If you break your set by going into the SM it won't be covered under warranty. This falls under the misuse/neglect terms in the warranty. Same thing if you decide to bash it in with a baseball bat...not covered.
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post #148 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 05:22 PM
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I hear ya cpcat, but if your set breaks, and the Pio tech comes out, it'll be hard for you to prove that it wasnt because of the changes made in the SM.... as minor as they may be...they probably can get ya just by knowing you were in there.
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post #149 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 06:15 PM
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Does going into the SM to check your TV's hours count as going into the SM to make changes and thus voiding the warranty? Just curious about this...

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post #150 of 176 Old 02-18-2008, 07:15 PM
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I would imagine there is a way to monitor when the SM has been accessed. I sure hope not, though.

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