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post #1 of 48 Old 05-14-2009, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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In January the HDMI website released some details on the HDMI 1.4 specs in this press release. In April Silicon Image, which is one of the HDMI Founders, said that the HDMI 1.4 specs would be released this quarter. Articles on HDMI 1.4 can be found at BusinessWire, Engadget, Gizmodo, Twice, and Yahoo. The HDMI website has also released an official list of the new HDMI 1.4 features:
  1. 3D Over HDMI which will standardize input/output of 3D video and will specify up to dual-stream 1080p resolution.
  2. 4K x 2K support which allows support for resolutions of 3840x2160 at 24/25/30 Hz and 4096x2160 at 24Hz.
  3. Audio Return Channel (ARC) allows for standard lossy audio to be sent back from the display to the AV receiver.
  4. Automatic Content Enhancement (ACE) which is the ability to automatically optimize the TV's picture settings based on content type.
  5. Automotive Connection System is a HDMI cabling specification designed for vehicles.
  6. Expanded Support For Color Spaces adds additional color spaces such as sYCC601, Adobe RGB, and AdobeYCC601.
  7. HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC) allows for an up to 100 Mbps connection between HDMI 1.4 devices and will require a new HDMI 1.4 cable which will be graded either low data rate or high data rate.
  8. HDMI Type D connector is a new HDMI connector for very small devices such as cellphones which is described in this Engadget article.
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post #2 of 48 Old 05-15-2009, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

In January the HDMI website released some details on the HDMI 1.4 specs in this press release. In April Silicon Image, which is one of the HDMI Founders, said that the HDMI 1.4 specs would be released this quarter. Today several websites announced additional details on the HDMI 1.4 specs though the HDMI website has put up a disclaimer that they would not confirm this information. Articles on HDMI 1.4 can be found at Engadget, Gizmodo, and Yahoo. Here is a list of the new HDMI 1.4 features:
  1. Automatic Content Enhancement (ACE) adds several new features such as support for 4096x2160@30Hz, support for future 3D video standards, and the ability to automatically optimize the TV's picture settings based on content type.
  2. Audio Return Channel (ARC) allows for standard lossy audio to be sent back from the display to the AV receiver.
  3. HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC) allows for an up to 100 Mbps connection between HDMI 1.4 devices and will require a new HDMI 1.4 cable which will be graded either low data rate or high data rate.
  4. HDMI Type D connector is a new HDMI connector for very small devices such as cellphones which is described in this Engadget article.

Just wait and see, the natives will now go crazy and everyone will have to buy a 1.4 HDMI cable to make everything work correctly, ha!!!!!

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post #3 of 48 Old 05-15-2009, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Just wait and see, the natives will now go crazy and everyone will have to buy a 1.4 HDMI cable to make everything work correctly, ha!!!!!

It sounds like the ACE and the ACR features will work with a HDMI 1.3 cable and that you would only need a HDMI 1.4 cable for the HEC feature.
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post #4 of 48 Old 05-15-2009, 04:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

It sounds like the ACE and the ACR features will work with a HDMI 1.3 cable and that you would only need a HDMI 1.4 cable for the HEC feature.

I don't know. I don't see anything that indicates a change in the existing pin count, so I would presume that existing cabling configurations would work, depending on the existing cable's bandwidth capabilities. Changing the connector for a change in pinout/pin-count would be a compatability nightmare, I just cannot forsee that happening at all.

But without hard information, it's kind of speculative.
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post #5 of 48 Old 05-15-2009, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I don't know. I don't see anything that indicates a change in the existing pin count, so I would presume that existing cabling configurations would work, depending on the existing cable's bandwidth capabilities. Changing the connector for a change in pinout/pin-count would be a compatability nightmare, I just cannot forsee that happening at all.

But without hard information, it's kind of speculative.

Based on what the Yahoo article says the cable configuration is changed with HDMI 1.4 so that some of the previously unused HDMI wires are replaced with a twisted pair wire structure which will be used by the HEC feature. The Yahoo article says that the HEC feature won't work with HDMI 1.3 cables though without more information it is hard to know whether that statement is completely accurate.
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post #6 of 48 Old 05-16-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Based on what the Yahoo article says the cable configuration is changed with HDMI 1.4 so that some of the previously unused HDMI wires are replaced with a twisted pair wire structure which will be used by the HEC feature. The Yahoo article says that the HEC feature won't work with HDMI 1.3 cables though without more information it is hard to know whether that statement is completely accurate.

I see that, but given that HDMI *is* a twisted pair cable, this doesn't make much sense, and seems like the author didn't know that. In other words, that statement seems to be implying that there is a change to twisted pair from some other cabling structure which they do not specify. But HDMI is a twisted pair cable, so I don't understand why they imply any change. Without the addition of new pins at the connector which I just don't see happening, then I don't see anything conclusive about a change in the physical cable or physical connector which that would require.

The only indication is the introduction of a new smaller form HDMI connector I assume like a mini-USB connector for portable devices, but I don't see anything conclusive about an overall physical re-vamping of HDMI cabling or existing connectors besides author assumptions from what seems like fairly skimpy information.
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post #7 of 48 Old 05-16-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I see that, but given that HDMI *is* a twisted pair cable, this doesn't make much sense, and seems like the author didn't know that. In other words, that statement seems to be implying that there is a change to twisted pair from some other cabling structure which they do not specify. But HDMI is a twisted pair cable, so I don't understand why they imply any change. Without the addition of new pins at the connector which I just don't see happening, then I don't see anything conclusive about a change in the physical cable or physical connector which that would require.

The only indication is the introduction of a new smaller form HDMI connector I assume like a mini-USB connector for portable devices, but I don't see anything conclusive about an overall physical re-vamping of HDMI cabling or existing connectors besides author assumptions from what seems like fairly skimpy information.

hoe delightful. yet another reason to have to buy all new gear. id like to tell them what they can do with their new fangled dongle!
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post #8 of 48 Old 05-16-2009, 04:28 PM
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I'm sure Monster cable will soon release an HDMI 1.4 cable entitled, Monster's Magnanimous Ultra Super Fast Bandwidth HDMI cable with optional brain tonic which will cost the equivalent of home mortgage payment.
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post #9 of 48 Old 05-16-2009, 05:48 PM
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Bingo!

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post #10 of 48 Old 05-16-2009, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I see that, but given that HDMI *is* a twisted pair cable, this doesn't make much sense, and seems like the author didn't know that. In other words, that statement seems to be implying that there is a change to twisted pair from some other cabling structure which they do not specify. But HDMI is a twisted pair cable, so I don't understand why they imply any change. Without the addition of new pins at the connector which I just don't see happening, then I don't see anything conclusive about a change in the physical cable or physical connector which that would require.

The 3 data wire pairs and the clock wire pair use a twisted pair wire structure but a big question is which wires are they going to use for HEC? I know of only 5 unused wires in HDMI and 4 of those are shield wires. If they are going to use the shield wires for HEC they would have to put them in a twisted pair wire structure which might be what the author is referring to.
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post #11 of 48 Old 05-19-2009, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Automatic Content Enhancement (ACE) adds several new features such as support for 4096x2160@30Hz, support for future 3D video standards, and the ability to automatically optimize the TV's picture settings based on content type.

That's very disappointing. So we could have a higher resolution picture, but only at half the frame rate of current video (60fps)

It's such a shame that in a future standard they couldn't give us equal or better frame rates than we have now.

As the BBC correctly says, increasing the spatial resolution and display sizes only makes low frame rates much more obvious. The BBC say if the spatial resolution of TV increases, they should increase the frame rate to maintain the balance between static and dynamic resolution. Yet they've done the exact opposite and halved the frame rate!

Imagine the strobing effects you'll see on a 4K TV at such low frame rates.

I wonder if they will transmit interlaced video at their resolution to give higher field rates? eg. 4K 30i. Yet we have progressive displays and that halves the spatial resolution per refresh, and will lead to artefacts. Current TVs can easily accept 1080p60. I think it's a really bad idea to halve the progressive frame rate even when (especially when) you're increasing the spatial resolution.
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post #12 of 48 Old 05-19-2009, 10:27 AM
 
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Here's a revolutionary idea for HDMI 2.0: COAX!!!
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post #13 of 48 Old 05-19-2009, 10:39 AM
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Here's a revolutionary idea for HDMI 2.0: COAX!!!

LOL - I think they should use fiber or Cat5e. I've always said they should use an existing high bandwidth, cheap cable, wiht a more solid connector end.
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post #14 of 48 Old 05-19-2009, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

That's very disappointing. So we could have a higher resolution picture, but only at half the frame rate of current video (60fps)

Almost all movies and the majority of TV shows are shot at 24 fps.


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Imagine the strobing effects you'll see on a 4K TV at such low frame rates.

Did you mean to say judder? Consumer HDTVs show 24 fps video at 60 Hz, 72 Hz, or 120 Hz. There is judder because of the low frame rate but that is going to be an issue even with new movies and TV shows until the major studios change to a higher frame rate. Several companies have proposed systems that could show movies at a higher frame rate but none of them were able to convince the major studios (Roger Ebert promoted MaxiVision 48).
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post #15 of 48 Old 05-20-2009, 12:01 AM
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Almost all movies and the majority of TV shows are shot at 24 fps.

I wouldn't say the majority of TV shows. Fictional US TV shows maybe. But the bigger and higher res your screen is, and the higher res the production is made at, the much worse it will look on TV. Consumers weren't talking as much about "judder" or "strobing" with smaller CRT & SD DVD, but with newer higher res screens and players it looks much worse/more obvious. It will look even worse for 4K, assuming the production is actually 4K and not filtered or soft focused so the resolution is less.

Quote:


Did you mean to say judder? Consumer HDTVs show 24 fps video at 60 Hz, 72 Hz, or 120 Hz. There is judder because of the low frame rate but that is going to be an issue even with new movies and TV shows until the major studios change to a higher frame rate. Several companies have proposed systems that could show movies at a higher frame rate but none of them were able to convince the major studios (Roger Ebert promoted MaxiVision 48).

I was told by someone on the AVS forum on the "when will the start filming at 60fps" thread that it isn't judder (the effects of the 24fps frame rate and film camera shutter) and that he said the correct word was strobing. I think he/others said judder should only be used for uneven movement like that caused by 3:2 pull-down.

HDMI 1.4 is a let down and I'll be less likely to upgrade to a 4K display if it's only half the frame rate of current displays and will show more strobing/other frame artefacts. Though I'm guessing the standard will allow interlacing, though we shouldn't need interlacing for new standards And that will mean de-interlacing of a 4K 30i or 25i source (or up-converting a 1080 30i or 25i source to 4K) can't be done by players (since it can't output 4K at 50/60p).
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post #16 of 48 Old 05-20-2009, 05:59 AM
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HDMI 1.4 is a let down and I'll be less likely to upgrade to a 4K display if it's only half the frame rate of current displays and will show more strobing/other frame artefacts. Though I'm guessing the standard will allow interlacing, though we shouldn't need interlacing for new standards And that will mean de-interlacing of a 4K 30i or 25i source (or up-converting a 1080 30i or 25i source to 4K) can't be done by players (since it can't output 4K at 50/60p).

I don't think the 4K@30 is for a 4K display. It's for doing 1080p60 3D. The 3D effect is done with 2 different (phased?) frames that the glasses need to create the effect. Consumer 4K displays are much farther down the timeline than HD 3D.

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post #17 of 48 Old 05-20-2009, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

I don't think the 4K@30 is for a 4K display. It's for doing 1080p60 3D. The 3D effect is done with 2 different (phased?) frames that the glasses need to create the effect. Consumer 4K displays are much farther down the timeline than HD 3D.

larry

"Automatic Content Enhancement (ACE) adds several new features such as support for 4096x2160@30Hz, support for future 3D video standards, and the ability to automatically optimize the TV's picture settings based on content type"

I'm sure the 4096x2160@30hz standard must be a different thing than the 3D standard since 4K is about 4x 1080p resolution (4096x2160 is 4.26 times the res). Yet for stereoscopic 3D you'd only need 2x (ie. 2x 1920x1080 streams). I would think their 3D standard would send them as 2x 1080p streams rather than as one big picture.

I think you're right that 4K consumer displays will take longer, though they have been demonstrating them at shows for a few years.
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post #18 of 48 Old 05-20-2009, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

"Automatic Content Enhancement (ACE) adds several new features such as support for 4096x2160@30Hz, support for future 3D video standards, and the ability to automatically optimize the TV's picture settings based on content type"

I'm sure the 4096x2160@30hz standard must be a different thing than the 3D standard since 4K is about 4x 1080p resolution (4096x2160 is 4.26 times the res). Yet for stereoscopic 3D you'd only need 2x (ie. 2x 1920x1080 streams). I would thing their 3D standard would send them as 2x 1080p streams rather than as one big picture.

I think you're right that consumer displays will take longer, though they have been demonstrating them at shows for a few years.

I was just guessing. I didn't think 4K was going to change the "standard" 16x9 we have now. I guess they'll need something to drive 4K displays even when they are only selling a handful (so to speak) in the next few years or so. Heck, HDTVs aren't a majority yet!

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post #19 of 48 Old 05-21-2009, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I was told by someone on the AVS forum on the "when will the start filming at 60fps" thread that it isn't judder (the effects of the 24fps frame rate and film camera shutter) and that he said the correct word was strobing.

I have never heard that term used for the poor motion caused by low frame rate video though I have heard the terms judder, motion judder, and temporal sampling judder. The term temporal sampling judder is used by Broadcast Engineering and they are the best source I have found that had a specific term for it.


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I think he/others said judder should only be used for uneven movement like that caused by 3:2 pull-down.

The Broadcast Engineering article calls that pulldown judder. The Broadcast Engineering article describes 3 types of judder (temporal sampling judder, motion judder, and pulldown judder).
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post #20 of 48 Old 05-21-2009, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I have never heard that term used for the poor motion caused by low frame rate video

Here's the James Cameron article and quotes:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117983864.html
James Cameron Quotes:
Quote:


For three-fourths of a century of 2-D cinema, we have grown accustomed to the strobing effect produced by the 24 frame per second display rate

Quote:


Some people call it judder, others strobing. I call it annoying

Quote:


digital cinema supplies the answer to the strobing problem

Quote:


Higher pixel counts only preserve motion artifacts like strobing with greater fidelity

Though in the article linked above he uses both "judder" and "strobing" to describe the effects.
eg.
Quote:


the 4K/24 image will judder miserably during a panning shot, and the 2K/48 won't

In the broadcast article you linked to it mentions strobing too.
http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...udder-problem/
Quote:


Excessive motion judder can be prevented, for example, by panning with a moving object. Follow panning itself creates another eye tracking artifact called background strobing. However, by forcing a shallow depth of field, background detail is reduced, thereby minimizing background strobing.

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post #21 of 48 Old 05-22-2009, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

In the broadcast article you linked to it mentions strobing too.
http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...udder-problem/

It does mention background strobing though it sounds like it is due to motion judder which is caused by how theaters flash the image twice. Though that is caused by the low frame rate it sounds like the general issue of poor motion caused by low frame rate video is called temporal sampling judder. There are a few names that are used by various sources for that though and temporal sampling judder was simply the most clearly defined term I have seen. The only other major online article I know about that uses that term though is this Microsoft article from 2001 so other terms are far more common.
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post #22 of 48 Old 05-23-2009, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geister View Post

Since electronics are always changing, the advice is generally "Don't wait, buy it now."
But with HDMI 1.4 already announced and 3D standards supposedly being established this year, it's probably not the ideal time to invest too heavily in new equipment.

If a person is not interested in 3D than there really isn't anything that important added by HDMI 1.4. On the other hand if a person is interested in 3D than it looks like waiting until next year would be a good idea.
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post #23 of 48 Old 05-23-2009, 08:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geister View Post

Since electronics are always changing, the advice is generally "Don't wait, buy it now."
But with HDMI 1.4 already announced and 3D standards supposedly being established this year, it's probably not the ideal time to invest too heavily in new equipment.

Yeah, but one could have said the same thing 30 years ago.
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post #24 of 48 Old 05-26-2009, 12:51 PM
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What's HDMI-1.4 have to do with 3D?
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post #25 of 48 Old 05-26-2009, 01:16 PM
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With the insane plethora of hi-def 3D movies cramming the store shelves, and the abundance of hi-def 3D video content on the Web, I am SO psychhed about the upcoming 1.4 HDMI gear!!!
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post #26 of 48 Old 05-26-2009, 02:57 PM
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It'll allow higher bandwidth, for things other than 3D, probably higher frame rates in full HD or better (maybe 1080p120?) - though not 4K at high frame rates . Probably higher colour depths and more too like networking.
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post #27 of 48 Old 05-26-2009, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by msmCutter View Post

What's HDMI-1.4 have to do with 3D?

From the sounds of it HDMI 1.4 will add support for 3D video standards. So instead of using proprietary methods for sending 3D video to a 3D display, which can vary depending on the company, with HDMI 1.4 there will be standard methods for doing that. One problem is that the basis for audio/video transfer with HDMI is the CEA-861 standard (the current version is CEA-861-E) and it currently does not support 3D video. CEA-861-F will support 3D video and last I heard it was going to be released sometime this year.
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post #28 of 48 Old 05-27-2009, 09:07 AM
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Will it be backward compatible with earlier HDMI standards? Will an HDMI switch still be able to switch a 3D video stream? Any more word on pin/plug compatibility?
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post #29 of 48 Old 05-27-2009, 10:51 AM
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The intent is always to be backward compatible except, of course, for new features. If the new supported resolution(s) don't exceed the 1.3 max bandwidth requirements, then a current switch should work. The switches don't interpret data formats.

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post #30 of 48 Old 05-28-2009, 07:38 AM
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Do we have ETA for the newest standard?
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Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

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