HDMI Cable Specs/Marketing - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 03-31-2011, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
georgemartin601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just bought some Bell'O 6ft 3100 series HDMI cables for my parents. Although my goal was to purchase cables specifically stating they support 1.4 standard, I purchased these on the assumption that they do, and just don't state it. These say "supports Audio Return, lossless 192/24 audio, 12-bit color . . . " among other things. I cannot determine if they are indeed HDMI 1.4 compliant. Does "Supports ARC" always equal "1.4 compliant"? Also, am I losing anything noticeable with the 12-bit color . . . I noticed others at 24-bit. thank you
georgemartin601 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 03-31-2011, 02:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cavu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CANADA
Posts: 6,886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Legitimate HDMI licensees are not allowed to use or advertise "version numbers" such as 1.3b, etc. You are looking at a counterfeit cable or old stock!! Here is the notice from HDMI.org last year:
Important Notice to Manufacturers and Resellers of HDMI Cables

PLEASE TAKE TIME TO REVIEW THESE CHANGES AS THEY MAY HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT ON YOUR BUSINESS

As of November 18, 2010, important changes to the way HDMI cable products are sold and marketed go into effect.
The following are now mandatory for cable products.
  • You shall not use HDMI version numbers in the labeling, packaging, or promotion of any cable product. This includes releases of the HDMI specification (for example, HDMI 1.3, etc.), interim version numbers (for example, HDMI 1.3a, etc.) and CTS (Compliance Test Specification) version numbers (for example, 1.2, 1.3c, etc.).
  • All cables shall be labeled, both on the cable itself and on the front of the cable packaging, with the appropriate cable name (see below). As of November 18, 2010, compliance will be mandatory.
    • Standard HDMI® Cable
    • Standard HDMI® Cable with Ethernet
    • Standard Automotive HDMI® Cable
    • High Speed HDMI® Cable
    • High Speed HDMI® Cable with Ethernet
  • You shall label the physical cable based on the requirements listed in Section 5.2 of the Adopted Trademark and Logo Usage Guidelines.
  • All packaging for HDMI cables shall clearly indicate the cable type by using the Cable Type Logos shown in Section 5.3 of the Adopted Trademark and Logo Usage Guidelines.
In order to enforce the cable market and ensure that only compliant HDMI cables are sold in the market, HDMI Licensing, LLC has been working with Custom and Border Protection agencies in the US, Europe and China. These agencies will evaluate imported and exported HDMI cable products based on their compliance with all aspects of the Adopter Agreement including these latest marketing requirements. HDMI Licensing, LLC strongly recommends that all Adopters abide by these requirements in order to ensure that there is no disruption to your business.

For more information, please reference the latest Adopted Trademark and Logo Usage Guidelines. To download a copy, please visit http://www.hdmi.org/logosphotos/atlug.aspx
_____________________
Charlene Wan
Tel: (408) 616-1549
HDMI Licensing, LLC
www.hdmi.org

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance  it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
" - MLK

cavu is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 03-31-2011, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
georgemartin601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Not relevant to me now, but will older cables, 1.0 through 1.3 versions work with ARC? I'm assuming mine, the Bell'O 3100 series will work as my ARC cable, correct?

Wow, interesting news. I just saw a BUNCH of HDMI cables at a large national retailer labeled with HDMI versions. Most of them in fact. Mostly Philips brand.

thanks
georgemartin601 is offline  
post #4 of 14 Old 03-31-2011, 04:17 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgemartin601 View Post

Not relevant to me now, but will older cables, 1.0 through 1.3 versions work with ARC? I'm assuming mine, the Bell'O 3100 series will work as my ARC cable, correct?

Wow, interesting news. I just saw a BUNCH of HDMI cables at a large national retailer labeled with HDMI versions. Most of them in fact. Mostly Philips brand.

thanks


No real way to say. If you have a high speed cable it will work, if it is a standard speed cable, then the cable isn't required to support but might. You'll have to try it to be sure.

Support for ARC is one feature of the 1.4a spec. So supporting all of the 1.4a features requires a high speed cable. Supporting one of the features is kind of like asking if the tread on a tire can support a car if only one tire is used.

Bottom line is that you need a high speed cable and certainly by the advertising you listed, I'd be very concerned about that vendor since they list things the cable doesn't do. These cables are digital cables and don't really "know" what the bits mean. Their only job is to get the same 1s and 0s from one side of the cable to the other without changing any of those 1s and 0s. Push the 1s and 0s too quickly through a non-qualified cable and the 1s and 0s will be garbled.

And, 12-bit color is for red or green or blue, not for the three combined (x3).
alk3997 is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 03-31-2011, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
georgemartin601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Bottom line is that you need a high speed cable and certainly by the advertising you listed, I'd be very concerned about that vendor since they list things the cable doesn't do. These cables are digital cables and don't really "know" what the bits mean. Their only job is to get the same 1s and 0s from one side of the cable to the other without changing any of those 1s and 0s. Push the 1s and 0s too quickly through a non-qualified cable and the 1s and 0s will be garbled

Not quite sure I follow. Do you mean to say this particular HDMI cable will not do what it is advertising it will do? Do you think you could tell me specifically if this cable http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...1&blockType=G1 will let me utilize my blu ray player and 1080P television's ARC port with my ARC-supported receiver?
georgemartin601 is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 03-31-2011, 06:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Some pins were reassigned, and the associated wiring changed, with the advent of HDMI 1.4 to support ARC and ethernet. However, according to HDMI.org, ARC will work with all HDMI cables. The digital audio on the ARC is at a much lower bit rate than the pairs that send the video to your display. So, a less than optimal wiring scheme is much less likely to have a significant effect on the ability to send audio. But if you want to be sure that the cable was actually designed with ARC in mind, you will need one that also supports ethernet.
Colm is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 04-01-2011, 05:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
Brent McCall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Ormond Beach Fl.
Posts: 683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Our testing has shown that any "decent" HDMI ever built will support "ARC".
Short History of HDMI cable capability's (note that some listed capabilities were NOT part of the spec at that time) .

HDMI 1.0
*5Gb's
*1080P
*8 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio

HDMI 1.1
*5Gb's
*1080P
*8 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio

HDMI 1.2
*5Gb's
*1080P
*8 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio

(Here is where it gets interesting)

HDMI 1.3 (Cat-1)
(There is a big drop in Rez capability with this cable)
*2.65Gb's
*1080i
*8 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio

HDMI 1.3 (Cat-2)
(There is a big jump in Rez capability with this cable)
*10.2Gb's
*1080P
*4K/2K
*48 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio
*3D

HDMI Standard Speed
(Exactly the SAME cable as 1.3 Cat-1)
*2.65Gb's
*1080i
*8 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio

HDMI High Speed
(Exactly the same cable as 1.3 Cat-2)
*10.2Gb's
*1080P
*4K/2K
*48 Bit Color
*ARC
*SACD
*DVD Audio
*3D

There are also "+ethernet" versions of "Standard Speed" and "High Speed".
There is no performance changes at all, only the added feature of the ability to also carry ethernet (10/100) signal.

There are of course some feature sets that I have forgotten, but these are the majors.

Brent McCall
Not A Dealer
Brent McCall is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 04-01-2011, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
georgemartin601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Seems like manufacturer's can pick and choose aspects from each type? As mine say on the label - supports 3D, ARC, 12-bit color, High Speed, TruSpeed(trademarked). It's the 12-bit color that makes me a little nervous. If it's high speed, 3d, ARC, etc., why only 12-bit color? What am I (my parents to be specific) losing? It sounds like the marketing guidelines are meant to actually help consumers, but it also seems manufacturer's can still throw some curveballs in an effort to smoke and mirror you into buying?? thanks to all, good info
georgemartin601 is offline  
post #9 of 14 Old 04-01-2011, 09:39 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgemartin601 View Post

Seems like manufacturer's can pick and choose aspects from each type? As mine say on the label - supports 3D, ARC, 12-bit color, High Speed, TruSpeed(trademarked). It's the 12-bit color that makes me a little nervous. If it's high speed, 3d, ARC, etc., why only 12-bit color? What am I (my parents to be specific) losing? It sounds like the marketing guidelines are meant to actually help consumers, but it also seems manufacturer's can still throw some curveballs in an effort to smoke and mirror you into buying?? thanks to all, good info

You know, a little research goes a long way. The quote below is from the same HDMI Org FAQ that is referenced in so many of the recent appends on this forum. But, rather than have you search, here is what the HDMI Org says about deep color,

"Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail."

So, that you are worried about 12-bit color depth is actually amusing. Remember 12-bits is per pel (I think I wrote this two appends earlier). So you're actually talking about 36-bits per pixel. 24 bit color (8-bits per pel) is pretty much standard while some devices allow for 12-bit color depth. Many manufacturers actually only effectively use 10-bits of the 12-bits, even when deep color is provided on a video device.

So, if you want to worry about something that you'll notice on your parents' set, deep color isn't it. Spend your time worrying about whether you'll get a picture or not due to HDCP or EDID or a bad cable.

Once again - it's a digital cable. It sends bits - it doesn't know what the bits are. It doesn't even choose which things to send - that's up to the chipsets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth
alk3997 is offline  
post #10 of 14 Old 04-01-2011, 09:43 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent McCall View Post

Our testing has shown that any "decent" HDMI ever built will support "ARC".
Short History of HDMI cable capability's (note that some listed capabilities were NOT part of the spec at that time) .

...


There are also "+ethernet" versions of "Standard Speed" and "High Speed".
There is no performance changes at all, only the added feature of the ability to also carry ethernet (10/100) signal.

There are of course some feature sets that I have forgotten, but these are the majors.

Way to go...Now you have everyone thinking that the cable knows about the capabilities you have listed. The people who come here asking for help usually have between 1 and 20 appends and are looking for simple and easy help. Stating that a cable has a capability just muddies the waters.

It is just a cable. Unless the wiring is changed between HDMI versions (which was not done), then the same bits are being sent. What the bits mean is irrelevent to the cable.

This is exactly why the HDMI Org changed the designations to standard speed and high speed for cables.

I also really hate the idea that you have me defending an HDMI Org decision.
alk3997 is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 04-01-2011, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
georgemartin601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Cool. thanks. FYI - from a low-number-poster - I like simple straightforward answers and the sickeningly in-depth kind you often find here. That's how we learn. And that's excatly what makes this site so great. Keep it up everyone.
georgemartin601 is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 02-14-2013, 07:47 PM
Member
 
Oldgregg99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey George^, I just bought 2 Bell'o HDMI cables HD3102 versions, just wanted to get your thoughts on it, from the labeling it is a high speed cable capable of all the features out there.
Oldgregg99 is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 02-14-2013, 11:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Do you suppose someone who last posted close to two years ago is going to respond?

FWIW a 2m cable is likely to work just fine.
Colm is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 02-15-2013, 02:32 AM
Member
 
Oldgregg99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I figured it was worth a shot, thanks for the info!
Oldgregg99 is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off