Poll - Your Favorite HDMI Cable - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 130 Old 02-24-2013, 09:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by budwich View Post

Hey Andy... I will jump in again with my "bit error rate / counter" suggestion... :-) you suggest that bits are bits and that the cable somehow knows what bits to change and what ones not so that things are better or worse depending on the cable smarts. BUT that statement can't really be taken as the "full length data story"... cause as you know the bits "start" and "stop" on past the cable. Without you knowing the full story on the errored bits AND how the receiving end handles the "restore" activity, I don't think you can truly say that a given cable can't sound better than another.... at least that's my view on data transport and recovery.

That would be a different discussion since I never mentioned errors in my previous discussion. But, let' go down that path and see where it leads.

I'm going to limit myself to errors in the audio stream and to make it easier to discuss, I'm going to assume linear PCM. If we were to assume Dolby Digital or DTS or the higher resolution codecs, then the impact of an error becomes much greater.

So with LPCM, if I get a single bit error, then if that bit occurs in the low order bit of a 24 bit word, I'm very much likely not to hear it. If it is in the high order bit, then I might hear it. If it continues for a while in the higher order bits, then I most definitely will hear it.

What will I hear? If it is truly a random noise function, then the result will be white noise, which resembles the sound made when playing a DTS CD without a DTS decoder. It only resembles that because the act of encoding for DTS does not produce a truly random output.

If we then look at single bit errors, if the error is in the high order bit in a 24-bit word and is flipped to a 1, then I'll get a roughly 48dB increase in audio. If it is flipped to a zero and should have been a 1, then I'll lose 48dB. If it continues for a few frames, then essentially I've added a loud DC component and I'll hear that since it will sound like a digital overmodulation sound (assuming the case of the high order bit staying at 1).

The interesting thing is if it is the low order bit, I'll flutter that bit but with our current audio equipment, that 24th bit can't be heard. The present day D/A chips can't process that bit to make it audible. So, it really can't be heard and if it can't be heard how can changing that bit actually improve the audio?

But then we can look at what it would take for an error to improve the audio. If we take an easy case of just raising the sound by a small amount, then the noise would have to increase each word the same exact amount and it would have to do it in a way that would not cause any overmodulation effects. It would also have to perform this work throughout the entire song / symphony. I think you'll find that would be impossible.

Add in that the audio is also encrypted (and the encryption is not linear) then the noise would have to follow a complex formula to even come close to producing an improvement to the audio. That just isn't going to happen since it would require noise that wasn't noise but instead was a signal. This "smart noise" does not exist although you would be surprise how many times professionals will attribute an coherent error to random noise. It's not the way physics works.

So, really to claim that noise is producing an improvement in an audio stream would be impossible. Now, the one exception to that is in a 16-bit word length audio stream, sometimes the lower order bit (which may be audible at 16-bits) is toggled to introduce dithering which then makes some improvement with the D/A chip. But that is a well thought out process that does not involve introducing truly random noise. HDMI bit errors would not be a well thought out process like that.

And, yes, I hope the person who posted the statement will take the entire system into consideration and then attempt to explain how the bits are changed by introducing a different cable in such a way as to improve the audio signal.
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post #92 of 130 Old 02-24-2013, 10:24 PM
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Now, Andy, he's perfectly clear...
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post #93 of 130 Old 02-24-2013, 10:32 PM
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But I think your points about improving audio quality assuming the system does that as the "targeted result" (ie. intended). But what if a better cable has less or no errors and thus the recovery system basically does nothing and the system operates in its "optimum design region" while lesser cables put the recovery system to a "test" that it may or may not be up to depending on things that you have mentioned so to speak. Then without knowing anything about the amount of erroring, all one is saying is that a "errorless" system (ie. cable plus) operates better than an "error corrected" system.... seems reasonable also. And we kind of know that from the sparkles deliver by one cable versus another of similar nature in the video domain... basically a "poor man's bit error rate detector"...
:-)

Anyways, just some thoughts.
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post #94 of 130 Old 02-25-2013, 08:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by budwich View Post

But I think your points about improving audio quality assuming the system does that as the "targeted result" (ie. intended). But what if a better cable has less or no errors and thus the recovery system basically does nothing and the system operates in its "optimum design region" while lesser cables put the recovery system to a "test" that it may or may not be up to depending on things that you have mentioned so to speak. Then without knowing anything about the amount of erroring, all one is saying is that a "errorless" system (ie. cable plus) operates better than an "error corrected" system.... seems reasonable also. And we kind of know that from the sparkles deliver by one cable versus another of similar nature in the video domain... basically a "poor man's bit error rate detector"...
:-)

Anyways, just some thoughts.

I think I understand what you are saying. If the original (cheaper) cable is generating bit errors then this improved cable is going to eliminate those errors and produce a better sound. The problem with that is any errors in the audio stream would be audible. So that original cable would not produce usable audio but instead audio with artifacts. Digital audio artifacts are harsh. Now the other argument could be that the errors aren't audible but then any improvement the newer cable made would also not be audible.

The problem again goes back to noise producing an improvement or in this case lesser quality audio but still listenable. It really takes smart noise to do this and that doesn't happen in the real word. For instance if we introduce a 60Hz signal into the bit stream, that won't add 60Hz hum to the audio. Instead the 60Hz peaks would disrupt the bitstream. Since it is 60Hz and the HDMI signal is much much faster, these peaks would likely disrupt a block of audio followed by a period when there would be less of a problem and then followed by blocks of bits that are again disrupted. That could easily become non-listenable audio, but not audio that was degraded to a slightly. That audio stream would be broken. Throw in any cyclic noise that changed bits and you quickly get into this situation. Random noise that appears in spurts would not affect the audio stream except when the noise was introduced and therefore would also not provide an audible change over the entire song/symphony and certainly would not be a consistent change.

I'm trying to just talk audio here only because the poster (five or so appends back) said audio quality was improved and didn't mention video quality. Also by using audio I don't have to worry about compression artifacts in the discussion. It is possible for the recorded audio data in the studio to make it through to your living room / listening room receiver unchanged. That eliminates a number of sources of potential errors that aren't pertinent to the discussion.

And, of course, as Colm said, there is no mechanism in the audio stream to correct bit errors or even attempt to mitigate bit errors. You get what you get with HDMI and can't correct or change. Detection is much simpler but doesn't do much in this case.
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post #95 of 130 Old 02-25-2013, 10:31 AM
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Actually all I want is my bit error rate displays... :-)
Anyways, I don't quite agree with you (which is fine) with respect to "smart noise". All i was saying if a system has errors being generated (we don't know what, how much, when, where), it may or may not have impact versus the same system that has no errors. Further I don't think that I mentioned anything about error correction but rather error recovery which is different and wider in scope and impact.

Ultimately, I go back to my "wish", give me my error rate display / indicators for a system that is moving / working with massive amounts of data of which there is currently little / no information presented to the average user... let's be more "open", it can only help even in discussion like this... :-)
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post #96 of 130 Old 02-25-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

I truly enjoy a good response like this. But, not once has anyone explained how the bits are changed in a signal to improve the audio. And if that isn't enough the signal is encrypted, too. So does the cable decrypt the bits, analyze the audio, improve the audio, reencrypt the bits and then send the signal to the destination? Maybe the source analyzes the cable and then changes the audio based on the price of the cable? Maybe the sink knows the brand of cable and modifies its EDID based on whether the cable can handle even higher quality audio?

Until someone can provide a believable mechanism for the cable to improve audio or video then this is just snake oil. Remember this is a digital (1s and 0s) cable not analog. It makes a big difference in the discussion.

So could you please take a few moments and explain how this so-cal


led improvement works?[/qu
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Say what?! I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

FWIW audio is transmitted on the same TMDS lines as video, and in a similar manner. There is no ECC on video or audio, just data island packets. IOW the only way to detect corrupt data is by the receipt of an invalid code, and even if one is detected, there is no way to correct it.
That may be true with a basic HDMI cable..but not a hi/end one ,especially audioquest,there indulgence series that employ more silver as you go up in price,starting with there cinnamon up to vodka,the audio travels in the upper part of the cable on a silver solid core,not twisted..apart from the video..all I can tell you is to try one of these cables..say cho Chocolate or carbon in your system..like I said before..you WILL notice a difference ,and YOU will keep that cable!.. And no I do not work for audioquest,I only use there HDMI cables in my system..all speaker wires,and interconnects are from straightwire
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post #97 of 130 Old 02-25-2013, 05:51 PM
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That may be true with a basic HDMI cable..but not a hi/end one...the audio travels in the upper part of the cable on a silver solid core...apart from the video..
You have obviously not taken the time to educate yourself about how HDMI works. Not even Audioquest claims what you have stated. Here is a link to the HDMI 1.3 specification if you are interested in learning about how audio is transmitted on an HDMI cable. If not, enjoy your silver cable and Kool-Aid.
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post #98 of 130 Old 02-25-2013, 06:19 PM
 
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...,the audio travels in the upper part of the cable on a silver solid core,not twisted..

And how does it do this since it leaves the source as part of the bitstream that contains both audio and video? Does the cable know which bits to separate or are you claiming that there is also an analog audio transmission in HDMI?

I still would like to hear some reasoning behind your claim. Right now your claim is still snake oil.

What you are experiencing is most likely a case of what we used to call "golden ears". It's a very rational thing. Basically it states that someone would only spend more money on their components if the audio quality would improve. Why would anyone spend money if there wasn't an improvement? So, therefore after spending money on your audio equipment (including cables), there must be an improvement and so the listener hears an improvement. More money = better quality audio. The brain is the most important part of the listening experience not the ears.

I've never heard the term "golden eyes" (except for the James Bond reference) used for video.

BTW, nice job combining two quotes so it looked like Colm was responding to me. Create something a cable can't do and then create a response that doesn't exist.. Seems appropriate.
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post #99 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 11:30 AM
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You have obviously not taken the time to educate yourself about how HDMI works. Not even Audioquest claims what you have stated. Here is a link to the HDMI 1.3 specification if you are interested in learning about how audio is transmitted on an HDMI cable. If not, enjoy your silver cable and Kool-Aid.
The kool-aid taste great..and I am very highly educated in HDMI design..not everybody designs there cables the same..the basics are there..point a to point b..but beyond that there is a lot to improve those zeros and ones ..I have been doing this since 88.. And I have already proved my point to myself..and that is all that matters..I'm not here to prove anything to you..obviously you have not tryed there cables..cause if so..you would understand..let your ears and eyes be the judge
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post #100 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 11:38 AM
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Oh well...its your loss,my gain..I surely am not using 5$ cables on over 25k worth of hi-end audio gear
..I have tryed many, many cables..some costing more than the audioquest
That I have returned,because the audioquest was far superior,and less money..the forum states whats your favorite HDMI cable'...I gave my 2 cents.I don't have to say no more...go get one..try it,if not..I surely ain't gonna loose no sleep over it!
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post #101 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 12:11 PM
 
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What you wrote is the definition of Golden Ears. Wanting to spend more money on cables not because they provide better audio quality but because they cost more. Sounds silly when put that way, doesn't it?

You've provided no proof, no valid explanation (based on the way HDMI actually works), basically no nothing. So, I'd hope no one would follow your advice but it's their money to blow, if that is what is desired.

As for me, I'd rather put that money into things that actually improve audio and video quality. Improved speakers, improved amplifiers, better room treatments all improve audio quality. At $25K, unless you've gotten substantial discounts on speakers, you haven't maxed out on audio quality. So, why not save your money and use it for things that have been independently shown to improve audio quality? That would make rational sense. Wishing for magic improvement by wasting your money on digital cables that do the exact same thing is the cheaper digital cables doesn't make sense.
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post #102 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 12:17 PM
 
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...And I have already proved my point to myself..and that is all that matters..I'm not here to prove anything to you..obviously you have not tryed there cables..

Well then, why do you keep writing? So you can read what you wrote to yourself and prove it to yourself again?

Besides if you had been doing this since 88 (1988, I assume?) you would already know that the only way to improve the digital signal is to cool the cable to near freezing. That way the 0s can move more easily and the 1s can attach themselves to the 0s and gain digital momentum that way. I can't believe you didn't know that. And, that is the way Audioquest makes their cables better. There is a little cooling circuit in the connector (powered by HDMI pin 19) that keeps the copper cooler than other cables. Now you made me give away their secret. The only thing the copper does is to make a thermal insulator. I wish I hadn't had to give that away.
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post #103 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 12:49 PM
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post #104 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 01:03 PM
 
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biggrin.gif

I really hated to give that information away. But, it's also why your audio system sound quality improves as the house temperature drops. You can hear a dramatic increase in bass response because the signals move easier through the colder wire. You can prove it to yourself by listening to a song selection in the summer and then wait for winter and listen to it again. I'm sure you'll hear the improvement that just the temperature change has caused. It's remarkable and you don't even need to measure the improvement. Just your ears will tell you the differrence - don't just believe me, try it!
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

I really hated to give that information away. But, it's also why your audio system sound quality improves as the house temperature drops. You can hear a dramatic increase in bass response because the signals move easier through the colder wire. You can prove it to yourself by listening to a song selection in the summer and then wait for winter and listen to it again. I'm sure you'll hear the improvement that just the temperature change has caused. It's remarkable and you don't even need to measure the improvement. Just your ears will tell you the differrence - don't just believe me, try it!
We don't have no winters in Miami!
Like I said before..the proof is just there waiting for you to go pick it up and see and HEAR for yourself
I will not be back..sooo..all I can say is enjoy what ya got!
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post #106 of 130 Old 02-26-2013, 03:30 PM
 
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Like I said before..the proof is just there waiting for you. Just use your HVAC to cool your house to 62 degrees F and HEAR for yourself!

I gave my 2 cents.I don't have to say no more...go lower the temperature..try it,if not..I surely ain't gonna lose no sleep over it!
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post #107 of 130 Old 02-28-2013, 08:51 AM
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If it is not going to be seen I get Monoprice every time and they have some with net jacks that look very good, but I needed something with a little more flex and color and found it at mycablemart.com. Works for me. As for HVAC interference I ran my rear channels at 90 degrees to the HVAC lines and put a little foil around the cables. Probabley did not need to do that as the HVAC lines were just control only. The only place that there would be interference or hum would be running parallel with the power lines to the condenser out side or in the attic, and then in a residential system that would be debatable and then just during Hi amp draw inrush at start up.
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post #108 of 130 Old 02-28-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil17108 View Post

If it is not going to be seen I get Monoprice every time and they have some with net jacks that look very good, but I needed something with a little more flex and color and found it at mycablemart.com. Works for me. As for HVAC interference I ran my rear channels at 90 degrees to the HVAC lines and put a little foil around the cables. Probabley did not need to do that as the HVAC lines were just control only. The only place that there would be interference or hum would be running parallel with the power lines to the condenser out side or in the attic, and then in a residential system that would be debatable and then just during Hi amp draw inrush at start up.
Dam Phil,now why didn't I think of that?
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post #109 of 130 Old 02-28-2013, 08:09 PM
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Wow. That's a steal for an HDMI cable... Only 5 left in stock.. Hurry..

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post #110 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 03:54 AM
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Wow. That's a steal
for an HDMI cable... Only 5 left in stock.. Hurry..

For 3 feet, no less. I'd hate to spend over $1,000 for an HDMI cable and have it be too short. At least it appears that they include standard shipping in the price.

We are here to help you. Please help us to help you. If you provide incomplete information, at best, we can give you an incomplete response.
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,the audio travels in the upper part of the cable on a silver solid core,not twisted..apart from the video

No it doesn't. Clearly you have absolutely no idea how HDMI data is transmitted, why embarrass yourself so much?
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post #112 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 08:36 AM
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This has been one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a while. It's nice being guaranteed to start the day with a smile wink.gif
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post #113 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 04:43 PM
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I wonder what I was thinking when I went into the HVAC interference rant. I think I was on another website this A M with some stuff about power lines on power conditioning in commercial property.
Then came back here and read about cold digital cabling, I think there could be something to that but believe it would have to be in the sub-zero and I think at lest-100 before that would make a deference and betting there is not anything that could time the speed up of the 0 & 1, or offs & ons, and why would you want to. Otto you are right about entertaining cool.gif And if cool works how about HOT like the oil in your car. Electrons speed up as they heat so maybe red hot cables may get then 1 & 0 down the line faster to, I just have one question whats going to happen to the 1 & 0 when the get there, traffic jam. If it's working don't break it.biggrin.gif
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I wonder what I was thinking when I went into the HVAC interference rant. I think I was on another website this A M with some stuff about power lines on power conditioning in commercial property.
Then came back here and read about cold digital cabling, I think there could be something to that but believe it would have to be in the sub-zero and I think at lest-100 before that would make a deference and betting there is not anything that could time the speed up of the 0 & 1, or offs & ons, and why would you want to. Otto you are right about entertaining cool.gif And if cool works how about HOT like the oil in your car. Electrons speed up as they heat so maybe red hot cables may get then 1 & 0 down the line faster to, I just have one question whats going to happen to the 1 & 0 when the get there, traffic jam. If it's working don't break it.biggrin.gif

You might want to go back and read the last page - you may realize you missed something again.

All I'll say is colder temperatures improving a digital cable has as much merit as some of the other items recently posted in this thread - and as much proof, which is why I posted it. Putting peanut butter and jelly on your HDMI cable may also improve sound quality (no proof otherwise) but it really doesn't.
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post #115 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 07:29 PM
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No it doesn't. Clearly you have absolutely no idea how HDMI data is transmitted, why embarrass yourself so much?
Obviously.. You have been stuck in the original HDMI design that's 7 yrs old..the audio in audioquest HDMI cables do not travel with the video..that's why when there's a HDMI handshake issue you get audio but no video..aka green screen..etc..not all HDMI cables sound the same that's fact..I'm not going to spend my time trying to prove a fact..the more silver used in a HDMI cable the better the audio..and as far as I'm concerned the video also..just go get a audioquest carbon HDMI and proof it to yourself..hell I will even send you one!!
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post #116 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
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No it doesn't. Clearly you have absolutely no idea how HDMI data is transmitted, why embarrass yourself so much?
Obviously.. You have been stuck in the original HDMI design that's 7 yrs old..the audio in audioquest HDMI cables do not travel with the video..that's why when there's a HDMI handshake issue you get audio but no video..aka green screen..etc..not all HDMI cables sound the same that's fact..I'm not going to spend my time trying to prove a fact..the more silver used in a HDMI cable the better the audio..and as far as I'm concerned the video also..just go get a audioquest carbon HDMI and proof it to yourself..hell I will even send you one!!

Esh I'm glad you're still as ignorant as always. You really should learn to spell and write properly, it might help....but probably not since you insist on nonsense. You simply have more money than sense but I'd sure as hell never buy any granite install from you.

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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Obviously.. You have been stuck in the original HDMI design that's 7 yrs old..the audio in audioquest HDMI cables do not travel with the video..that's why when there's a HDMI handshake issue you get audio but no video..aka green screen..etc..not all HDMI cables sound the same that's fact..I'm not going to spend my time trying to prove a fact..the more silver used in a HDMI cable the better the audio..and as far as I'm concerned the video also..just go get a audioquest carbon HDMI and proof it to yourself..hell I will even send you one!!

Contradict yourself much?
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Originally Posted by esh616 
..I will not be back..sooo..all I can say is enjoy what ya got!


Just couldn't stay away, eh? You do understand that what is transmitted on the HDMI cable is binary digits, commonly known as bits? You understand that, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh616 
...when there's a HDMI handshake issue you get audio but no video

and the quote above is just blatently false. There are multiple types of handshake issues. If you get an HDCP issue, you won't be getting any audio (assuming your video and audio go to the same sink). You do understand what HDCP is, right? Why don't you tell all of us what it is? And, then explain how your separate audio works with HDCP..

You can babble on all you want, I just worry about someone browsing and seeing your nonsense. They might base their buying decisions on your misinformation, which would be a mistake.
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post #118 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 08:16 PM
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.the audio in audioquest HDMI cables do not travel with the video

Yes it does.
You're really ignorant of the facts. I'm embarrassed for you.
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.I'm not going to spend my time trying to prove a fact

It's not a fact, therefore you can't prove it.
You clearly haven't a clue...why not google and learn something?
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post #119 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

just go get a audioquest carbon HDMI and proof it to yourself..hell I will even send you one!!

You can send me one that I will gladly test out. I would love to do a comparison with a Blue Rigger cable that I just got in the mail.

We are here to help you. Please help us to help you. If you provide incomplete information, at best, we can give you an incomplete response.
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post #120 of 130 Old 03-01-2013, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctego View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

just go get a audioquest carbon HDMI and proof it to yourself..hell I will even send you one!!

You can send me one that I will gladly test out. I would love to do a comparison with a Blue Rigger cable that I just got in the mail.

He should have a few...he's claimed to have purchased some 30 odd of these "high-end" cables where of course the more you spend the more you get! Like government!

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