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post #31 of 170 Old 07-13-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

I don't think anyone here thinks that all cables are the same. Many would tell you that the BJC Series 1 is one of the best. Others have other favorites. It is just that the differences don't result in things like changes in sharpness, hue, saturation, or any of the other measures by which we traditionally judge picture quality, just how far a given signal can be carrier before it results in loss of data, which initially shows up as sparkles.


Thank you for the considerate way you have expressed your opinion. I have seen differences caused by loss of bits. I have also noticed that your style invites discussion, which is a good thing.
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post #32 of 170 Old 07-13-2011, 05:16 PM
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So here is my question for you. Assuming these bit errors can cause differences in sharpness, contrast, hue, etc. What is the mechanism? I don't see one.
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post #33 of 170 Old 07-13-2011, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by HDPERSON View Post

It has come to my attention that Monoprice and Blue Jeans cables are sponsors of this forum. This explains a lot.

Don't forget AV Science, the owners of this site. They have their own brand.

What does it explain? The posters here except for monoprice1, KurtBJC, and perhaps one or two others have no interest in the success or failure of either. Monoprice is popular because it is a reliable retailer of inexpensive commodity cables that do the job adequately in most cases. BJC is popular because of its Series 1 and similar cables based on Belden bonded-pair technology. The representatives of both have been quite above board in their posts, unlike the stooges for some other manufacturers that have touted various products in these forums over the years.
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post #34 of 170 Old 07-13-2011, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HDPERSON View Post

It has come to my attention that Monoprice and Blue Jeans cables are sponsors of this forum. This explains a lot.

Anyone with a background in psychology care to tell us which stage of grief this little outburst represents?
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post #35 of 170 Old 07-13-2011, 07:57 PM
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I was wondering though while we are on the subject of best cables. Does the dbs current in the audio quest cables having and solid backing as to whether or not they help the cable? And also does having more silver do anything for the cable. The reason I ask i work at bb and was wondering whether any of the hype is real or not or if should just get different color hdmi from mono price so each source
has its own cable color?
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post #36 of 170 Old 07-13-2011, 10:47 PM
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All other things being equal, silver plating conductors can be advantageous when transmitting signals like HDMI that have high frequency components due to skin effect. You can read up on skin effect on wikipedia if you are interested. The plating will only make a difference if you are right on the ragged edge. If might allow the cable to certify high speed for an extra foot or two, if that. If you can find a certified high speed unplated cable in the length you need, there is no need to go to one with silver plating. It might be advantageous if you need a length longer that the longest certified high speed cable available. Then cable features may start to become important. The usual caveat applies. If you aren't getting sparkles or worse with your current cable, changing cables won't improve the picture.
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post #37 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 03:46 AM
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Anyone citing 'What HIFI' as a useful source of credible info on HDMI cables is on a hiding - that rag claims it can 'hear' differences between cables!!!

I've yet to see the wonder patents for all of this new 'intelligent' copper the marketing teams at various cable Co's have created.

Other than using a heavier gauge of cable on long runs there is no advantage in using cable A over cable B - sure if you want a better engineered cable spend a few extra $$$ just don't expect/claim sound or vision changes!

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post #38 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 06:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by danhawk911 View Post

I was wondering though while we are on the subject of best cables. Does the dbs current in the audio quest cables having and solid backing as to whether or not they help the cable? And also does having more silver do anything for the cable. The reason I ask i work at bb and was wondering whether any of the hype is real or not or if should just get different color hdmi from mono price so each source
has its own cable color?

Remember to think of these cables in the digital world and not in the analog world. There were great debates over whether an improved cable could help analog speaker outputs and some of it had merit - although much was overblown.

In the digital world, all you're interested in is that the same 1s and 0s get from one end of the cable to the other. You can't really improve on 100% of the 1s and 0s getting across, no matter how much "improved" the cable construction actually is. If the same 1s and 0s appear on the other end, than any change would (at best) result in the same output you already had.

If you are getting errors, the video will show sparkles, a solid color on a screen (like a solid all green screen), lines through images or no image at all. These are all very obvious when you get an error, although they may not occur all of the time. Usually the errors are in bursts, which makes them even more obvious.

But, if you aren't getting any errors, then any cable change is just hype and misinformation mostly meant to sell more expensive cables that don't actually provide a visual or audible benefit.
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post #39 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Remember to think of these cables in the digital world and not in the analog world. There were great debates over whether an improved cable could help analog speaker outputs and some of it had merit - although much was overblown.

In the digital world, all you're interested in is that the same 1s and 0s get from one end of the cable to the other. You can't really improve on 100% of the 1s and 0s getting across, no matter how much "improved" the cable construction actually is. If the same 1s and 0s appear on the other end, than any change would (at best) result in the same output you already had.

If you are getting errors, the video will show sparkles, a solid color on a screen (like a solid all green screen), lines through images or no image at all. These are all very obvious when you get an error, although they may not occur all of the time. Usually the errors are in bursts, which makes them even more obvious.

But, if you aren't getting any errors, then any cable change is just hype and misinformation mostly meant to sell more expensive cables that don't actually provide a visual or audible benefit.

So I can be fine with the forest sereis. which comes out dirt cheap for me for me me. But i guess my question would also be the same for an along cable with it being made made of more pure sivler would it help with the sound to connect from the pre amp to an amp?
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post #40 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by danhawk911 View Post

So I can be fine with the forest sereis. which comes out dirt cheap for me for me me. But i guess my question would also be the same for an along cable with it being made made of more pure sivler would it help with the sound to connect from the pre amp to an amp?

It really depends upon the voltage and frequencies being used. For short distance audio, personnally I don't believe anyone can hear the difference versus a non-cheapo patch cable. You would do more by using a balanced input / output setup than by changing the cable. Of course that would take components that had balanced inputs and outputs rather than just a cable change.

For longer run analog video, yes, a cable can make a noticible difference, particularly with noise.

I answered in general on analog cables. I didn't answer on the silver because I don't have any data either way.
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post #41 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 12:35 PM
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Bit errors cannot cause any of those things. HDPerson knows nothing about electronics or digital systems so asking him to explain it is useless.

Of course bit errors can cause them because you are not receiving 100% signals.

You really like to be abusive and put people down. Don't you.
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post #42 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Osirus23 View Post

Anyone with a background in psychology care to tell us which stage of grief this little outburst represents?

More abuse from you!!!!

With all the advertising it is no wonder that so many people on this forum buy monoprice and blue jeans cables.
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post #43 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

It really depends upon the voltage and frequencies being used. For short distance audio, personnally I don't believe anyone can hear the difference versus a non-cheapo patch cable. You would do more by using a balanced input / output setup than by changing the cable. Of course that would take components that had balanced inputs and outputs rather than just a cable change.

For longer run analog video, yes, a cable can make a noticible difference, particularly with noise.

I answered in general on analog cables. I didn't answer on the silver because I don't have any data either way.

Excellent. Audioquest says that silver improves sound, but also says that the top Audioquest cables have the same picture as the bottom audioquest cables.
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post #44 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

Anyone citing 'What HIFI' as a useful source of credible info on HDMI cables is on a hiding - that rag claims it can 'hear' differences between cables!!!

I've yet to see the wonder patents for all of this new 'intelligent' copper the marketing teams at various cable Co's have created.

Other than using a heavier gauge of cable on long runs there is no advantage in using cable A over cable B - sure if you want a better engineered cable spend a few extra $$$ just don't expect/claim sound or vision changes!

Joe

What did you think about the audio report in Stereophile magazine?
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post #45 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Don't forget AV Science, the owners of this site. They have their own brand.

What does it explain? The posters here except for monoprice1, KurtBJC, and perhaps one or two others have no interest in the success or failure of either. Monoprice is popular because it is a reliable retailer of inexpensive commodity cables that do the job adequately in most cases. BJC is popular because of its Series 1 and similar cables based on Belden bonded-pair technology. The representatives of both have been quite above board in their posts, unlike the stooges for some other manufacturers that have touted various products in these forums over the years.

The advertising is why I believed so many people purchased monoprice or blue jeans cables. I have two monoprice cables, from my view point they are average. I still like audioquest forest or cinnamon. I wish you would just purchase one and try it. I would like to hear if you found any difference.
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post #46 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 12:52 PM
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So here is my question for you. Assuming these bit errors can cause differences in sharpness, contrast, hue, etc. What is the mechanism? I don't see one.

If you get 100,000 or 200,000 bit errors per second, that means you are not getting 100% signal sent from Source to Destination. These errors will give you a picture but it would not have that "Pop" a picture should.

I purchase the 900 Monster 17.8 gbps cable and used it for a week before returning it. The picture was OK but didn't have that "Pop of color. I put my audioquest forest back in and the color was improved. That is why I am hoping that you will try it one day.
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post #47 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 01:08 PM
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Audioquest says that silver improves sound...

Yeah, IIRC they were taken to task on that claim in the media when they first made it. They could not describe the mechanism by which that happens. They just argued about their right to make the claim.

Audio is transmitted digitally over the same TMDS pairs as video. All the silver does is provide a small reduction in resistance, which only means that you might be able to get an adequate signal out of the cable at a length you could not with unplated wire. I guess one could claim that a better signal at any point could related to low bit jitter when capturing the data at the end of the HDMI cable, but that doesn't correlate with audio jitter. The bits are assemble into 10 bits words, translated back into 4 bit words, buffered and reclocked and processed. As long as there are no bit errors, one cable is as good as another. And again, when there are errors, the results are not subtle.
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post #48 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 01:11 PM
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The advertising is why I believed so many people purchased monoprice or blue jeans cables..

No doubt advertising plays a significant part in their success. But that is true of most business. I think the big thing is word of mouth. Each satisfied customer breeds more as word spreads.

FWIW if it were not monoprice and BJC that are favorites here, it would be other companies, maybe Amazon.
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post #49 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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If you get 100,000 or 200,000 bit errors per second, that means you are not getting 100% signal sent from Source to Destination. These errors will give you a picture but it would not have that "Pop" a picture should.

I purchase the 900 Monster 17.8 gbps cable and used it for a week before returning it. The picture was OK but didn't have that "Pop of color. I put my audioquest forest back in and the color was improved. That is why I am hoping that you will try it one day.

"If you get 100,000 or 200,000 bit errors per second"

PROVE TO US THAT YOU ARE GETTING THIS LEVEL OF BIT ERRORS WITH THE "OTHER" CABLES AND I'LL BE ON YOUR SIDE. If you can't then you're just spitting out more nonsense and just wildly speculating (again). You have a golden opportunity to prove your case now.

It would also help if you could show that a valid picture is still produced even with this level of bit errors.

Remember - PROOF (not meaningless words but data, graphs, pictures and other items that can be independently confirmed). And, no response will be accepted which tries to argue negatives (such as stating that we should prove that other cables don't have these errors).

You'll truly shock me if you provide actual data that supports your position on the error rates and yet shows a valid picture.

The floor is yours (and take as much space as you need to show all of your data)...
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post #50 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 01:15 PM
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If you get 100,000 or 200,000 bit errors per second...

...you will have a picture that is unwatchable. That is thousands of sparkles per frame at 60 fps. Time to get a different cable.
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post #51 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 01:34 PM
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What did you think about the audio report in Stereophile magazine?

If you mean the one where they toured AudioQuest's facilities, I think the writer doesn't know what he is talking about, was duped by AudioQuest (they controlled everything), or fooled himself. Keep in mind that all audio magazines are to some extent whores for the industry. Also keep in mind the long history of questionable claims made by manufacturers in the industry. And keep in mind that human brain being what it is, hearing is a very unreliable way to test something (some people even hear voices telling them to do things) particularly when the differences are subtle and fly in the face of our knowledge of how audio is transmitted over HDMI. If you want to convince me, show me the lab results that support what the writer says he heard and explain the mechanism.

I'll give you an example. Years ago some audio magazine compared a variety of speaker cables. They did listening tests. All the cables sounded the same except one boutique cable. They graphed the frequency response of all the cables. The graphs were all pretty much the same except for the boutique cable which rolled off the highs significantly. The mechanism was the higher capacitance of the cable. That was a useful report.
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post #52 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 02:55 PM
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More abuse from you!!!!

With all the advertising it is no wonder that so many people on this forum buy monoprice and blue jeans cables.

So forum advertising is why most of us use and recommend Monoprice and BJC? All along I thought it was because we're intelligent, informed consumers with a basic knowledge of science (the S in AVS).

Isn't the megabuck JPS Labs also a forum sponsor?

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post #53 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 05:29 PM
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Saying that HDMI cables can effect color and make it "pop" is utterly ridiculous. Unless there is an active component in the cable which actually alters the data and changes it it cannot happen, at which point you are no longer getting a transparent transmission of the video.

If you want to simulate what its like to have a HDMI cable that doesn't work, find someone (or yourself) who has a Dish Network or direct tv and have someone cover the antenna while watching the picture.
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post #54 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 06:14 PM
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If you want to simulate what its like to have a HDMI cable that doesn't work, find someone (or yourself) who has a Dish Network or direct tv and have someone cover the antenna while watching the picture.

Not really a good analogy. Satellite signals are compressed and HDMI is uncompressed. You get different artifacts.
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post #55 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Not really a good analogy. Satellite signals are compressed and HDMI is uncompressed. You get different artifacts.

No its certainly not the same, but you can see what happens when hunks of data are missing or corrupted*.

* I recklessly use these terms interchangably, I apologize.
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post #56 of 170 Old 07-14-2011, 07:04 PM
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Hello HDPERSON

Someone at Stereophile ought to explain how a collection of Copper wires can decode an encrypted AV signal, target and alter some part of the decoded signal and then re-encrypt the signal.

Your 'Popping' picture sounds intriguing - are you able to take cable A vs. cable B measurements to show the effects these cables are having on the image your Display is producing?

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post #57 of 170 Old 07-15-2011, 01:17 AM
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...you will have a picture that is unwatchable. That is thousands of sparkles per frame at 60 fps. Time to get a different cable.

Not really, you have 8 billion bits per second transmitted. 1% of 8 billion is 8 million, so you see that it is less than 1%. It can cause picture change but not picture cancellation. Information came from BER internet explanations, Wire World, Audioquest and Monster videos and literature explanations.
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Hello HDPERSON

Someone at Stereophile ought to explain how a collection of Copper wires can decode an encrypted AV signal, target and alter some part of the decoded signal and then re-encrypt the signal.

Your 'Popping' picture sounds intriguing - are you able to take cable A vs. cable B measurements to show the effects these cables are having on the image your Display is producing?

Joe

Hi Joe

My friends and myself ran a blind test of the different cables and saw a difference in picture quality. The Audioquest cables actually showed a difference.
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post #59 of 170 Old 07-15-2011, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

If you mean the one where they toured AudioQuest's facilities, I think the writer doesn't know what he is talking about, was duped by AudioQuest (they controlled everything), or fooled himself. Keep in mind that all audio magazines are to some extent whores for the industry. Also keep in mind the long history of questionable claims made by manufacturers in the industry. And keep in mind that human brain being what it is, hearing is a very unreliable way to test something (some people even hear voices telling them to do things) particularly when the differences are subtle and fly in the face of our knowledge of how audio is transmitted over HDMI. If you want to convince me, show me the lab results that support what the writer says he heard and explain the mechanism.

I'll give you an example. Years ago some audio magazine compared a variety of speaker cables. They did listening tests. All the cables sounded the same except one boutique cable. They graphed the frequency response of all the cables. The graphs were all pretty much the same except for the boutique cable which rolled off the highs significantly. The mechanism was the higher capacitance of the cable. That was a useful report.

I hear what you are saying. But in the absence of anything else, one has to rely on reports by magazines, internet tests by various organizations (cnet and wire world is a possible example), companies that make cables and one's own tests to see and understand if there are differences.

While I like the discussions here, I don't really believe the individuals in this forum have tested 80 differnet cables sight and sound to determine differences. I have just heard of put downs of professional magazines or what others have seen and heard because it doesn't fit what they firmly believe.
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post #60 of 170 Old 07-15-2011, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osirus23 View Post

Saying that HDMI cables can effect color and make it "pop" is utterly ridiculous. Unless there is an active component in the cable which actually alters the data and changes it it cannot happen, at which point you are no longer getting a transparent transmission of the video.

If you want to simulate what its like to have a HDMI cable that doesn't work, find someone (or yourself) who has a Dish Network or direct tv and have someone cover the antenna while watching the picture.

Colm answered one of your questions.

The question concerning "Pop" is answered very easily. Buy and Audioquest Cinnamon cable and try it on your system. See if you get a "Pop", if not then return it for your money back. You can't tell me that what I and my friends have seen is not true, because you were not there.
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