Lightning Strikes Twice - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 07-19-2011, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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For the 2nd time in two months lightning has taken out my HDTV.
First a Samsung DLP came on with a no signal message. The TV was connected to a receiver through HMI. Trouble shooting found that cable box was OK, the HDMI was out from receiver and Cable Box independantly. Composite vido was out from Cable Box. Composite Video was OK through a DVD player.

Last night, after a lightning storm, the substitute Samsung LCD, connected to the cable box went to "no Signal" as I was watching.

Recommendations for protecting the equipment from the effects of lightning. It seems that the HDMI inputs are highly susceptible to surges.
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post #2 of 25 Old 07-19-2011, 08:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgilf View Post

For the 2nd time in two months lightning has taken out my HDTV.
First a Samsung DLP came on with a no signal message. The TV was connected to a receiver through HMI. Trouble shooting found that cable box was OK, the HDMI was out from receiver and Cable Box independantly. Composite vido was out from Cable Box. Composite Video was OK through a DVD player.

Last night, after a lightning storm, the substitute Samsung LCD, connected to the cable box went to "no Signal" as I was watching.

Recommendations for protecting the equipment from the effects of lightning. It seems that the HDMI inputs are highly susceptible to surges.


Actually it seems cable boxes are susceptible from lighting. Have the cable company check their ground. Unless the lightning came into your house and hit the receiver or the cable box or the TV directly, any HDMI effects are secondary results with the primary cause being the overload that came into your house. The two paths are power (I assume you already have the cable box, receiver and TV on good surge protectors or battery backups) and the cable line. You can try to put the cable line through a surge protector as well. But you really should get the cable company to check their ground at the house (or try a different TV content provider).
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post #3 of 25 Old 07-19-2011, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgilf View Post
It seems that the HDMI inputs are highly susceptible to surges.
Yep, and very difficult to protect. You need to keep the surges out of the equipment at both ends

Best approach is a whole-house approach that protects all conductive paths coming into the house. It has been discussed in detail in other threads.

If you use a point-of-use surge protective device, it is a good idea to have all connected equipment connected to the same one. Otherwise it is possible to create problems you wouldn't otherwise have.

Like Andy said, check the ground on the cable. Cable companies are notorious for not properly grounding the shield of the cable where it enters the house.
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post #4 of 25 Old 07-19-2011, 06:28 PM
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I had a horrible power surge and very close lightning strike recently that blew the electric wires off of my garage wall. I have a whole house surge protector and an expensive Furman power conditioner/surge protector that protects my rack but not the projector. When the Furman cut the power to the rack after the power surge, I pulled the plug on the projector before the lightning struck. Sorry for the long post but can anyone help :
My Oppo 95 worked fine from the time I bought it a few months ago until there was no longer a picture after the storm. The Oppo service technician thought it could possibly be a handshake issue after troubleshooting with me over the phone but he was not sure. I use the Oppo with a JVC DILA RS 40 projector in a dedicated home theater room. When using an X Box or Dish Satellite receiver as the source, a picture can be seen on the screen as always. It’s only with the Oppo 95 that the picture is no longer visable. When I turn on the Oppo and put in a Blu-Ray disc, even though there is no picture, I can hear the audio through the Pre/Pro and amplifier playing the music from the root menu. The HDMI cable is connected directly from the OPPO to the projector so HDMI does not go through the sound system (pre/pro amp) at all.
After disconnecting the Oppo 95 and taking it into the family room, and then connecting it to a Sony Qualia 006 rear projector TV (model KDS-70Q006), there is no picture on HDMI 1. But after switching to HDMI 2 when using the Qualia TV, a normal picture can be seen. The Oppo service technician helped me download the latest firmware and still no picture was seen on HDMI 1 but the picture is seen only with HDMI 2 and only in the family room with the TV.
Then I took the Oppo back to the theater room with the projector I tried hooking it using HDMI 2 to both the projector and the Oppo slots and still no picture even though on the projector remote I chose HDMI 2. I’ve done all the things recommended in the booklet to troubleshoot when no picture occurs but nothing works (video cables checked and snugged into the HDMI slots, input was the HDMI 1 on the projector remote. ”Pure audio” was not engaged. It was installed properly by the AVS (internet forum) installers and it did work for months. The Oppo just stopped producing a picture a couple of days ago.
Do I need to replace the HDMI cable if the OPPO comes back and the picture is still out?
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post #5 of 25 Old 07-20-2011, 06:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veinboy View Post

I had a horrible power surge and very close lightning strike recently that blew the electric wires off of my garage wall. I have a whole house surge protector and an expensive Furman power conditioner/surge protector that protects my rack but not the projector. When the Furman cut the power to the rack after the power surge, I pulled the plug on the projector before the lightning struck. Sorry for the long post but can anyone help :
My Oppo 95 worked fine from the time I bought it a few months ago until there was no longer a picture after the storm. The Oppo service technician thought it could possibly be a handshake issue after troubleshooting with me over the phone but he was not sure. I use the Oppo with a JVC DILA RS 40 projector in a dedicated home theater room. When using an X Box or Dish Satellite receiver as the source, a picture can be seen on the screen as always. It’s only with the Oppo 95 that the picture is no longer visable. When I turn on the Oppo and put in a Blu-Ray disc, even though there is no picture, I can hear the audio through the Pre/Pro and amplifier playing the music from the root menu. The HDMI cable is connected directly from the OPPO to the projector so HDMI does not go through the sound system (pre/pro amp) at all.
After disconnecting the Oppo 95 and taking it into the family room, and then connecting it to a Sony Qualia 006 rear projector TV (model KDS-70Q006), there is no picture on HDMI 1. But after switching to HDMI 2 when using the Qualia TV, a normal picture can be seen. The Oppo service technician helped me download the latest firmware and still no picture was seen on HDMI 1 but the picture is seen only with HDMI 2 and only in the family room with the TV.
Then I took the Oppo back to the theater room with the projector I tried hooking it using HDMI 2 to both the projector and the Oppo slots and still no picture even though on the projector remote I chose HDMI 2. I’ve done all the things recommended in the booklet to troubleshoot when no picture occurs but nothing works (video cables checked and snugged into the HDMI slots, input was the HDMI 1 on the projector remote. ”Pure audio” was not engaged. It was installed properly by the AVS (internet forum) installers and it did work for months. The Oppo just stopped producing a picture a couple of days ago.
Do I need to replace the HDMI cable if the OPPO comes back and the picture is still out?

I have roughly the same equipment (93 and RS-50) as part of our system. First, I assume you didn't pull the plug on the RS-40 while it was still projecting. Obviously you always want to allow the fans to cool the RS-40 after turning off the bulb.

It seems like the BDP-95's HDMI 1 output is suspect. Since the OPPO uses separate boards for HDMI 1 and HDMI 2, that would explain why HDMI 2 still works. So, let's stick with troubleshooting just OPPO HDMI 2 first.

First try using a separate (not currently used) high speed HDMI cable between just the BDP-95's HDMI 2 output and the projector's HDMI 2 input (nothing in between the projector and the OPPO). I understand that probably means moving the BDP-95 closer to the projector than normal. Once the first test is complete, try the same test except using the BDP-95's HDMI 2 output and the HDMI 1 input for the RS-40. Make sure everything gets powered off between cable swaps (and also wait for appropriate RS-40 cool-down time).

Please let me know the results. I think I understand some of what happened but am not sure of the condition of the RS-40's HDMI ports. That trouble-shooting will greatly help my understanding.

BTW, my initial guess is that the surge traveled in through the RS-40's power supply and over to the BDP-95 with the HDMI cable (or any other interconnected item). We built a shelf on the upper wall near the projector to house a battery backup / surge protector for just the projector. There is a power outlet as well near the battery backup. So none of the wires or battery backup go below the height of the projector.
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post #6 of 25 Old 07-20-2011, 01:44 PM
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Thanks Andy.

I didn't make it clear in the last sentence but I already sent the OPPO back and am waiting their findings and possible repair.
When I pulled the plug on the projector after the surge, it was completely powered off and hadn't been used for days.
When the OPPO comes back, if there is still no picture, I'll buy a new short HDMI cable and carry the OPPO and put it near the projector. I'll connect it directly to the projector and give it a try with both HDMI ports and power down in between attempts. I just found out that the latest firmware for the RS 40 projector addresses HDMI compatability so I'll download that also.

I believe you are right that the surge entered the projector because I didn't mention that when I hooked up a different blu-ray from another room (a Sony blu-ray) to the projector via the original HDMI cable, I still can't get a picture so the projector may also have been hit first with the surge.

I'll keep you updated as things evolve.

Thanks a lot for the help!
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post #7 of 25 Old 07-21-2011, 12:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veinboy View Post

Thanks Andy.

I didn't make it clear in the last sentence but I already sent the OPPO back and am waiting their findings and possible repair.
When I pulled the plug on the projector after the surge, it was completely powered off and hadn't been used for days.
When the OPPO comes back, if there is still no picture, I'll buy a new short HDMI cable and carry the OPPO and put it near the projector. I'll connect it directly to the projector and give it a try with both HDMI ports and power down in between attempts. I just found out that the latest firmware for the RS 40 projector addresses HDMI compatability so I'll download that also.

I believe you are right that the surge entered the projector because I didn't mention that when I hooked up a different blu-ray from another room (a Sony blu-ray) to the projector via the original HDMI cable, I still can't get a picture so the projector may also have been hit first with the surge.

I'll keep you updated as things evolve.

Thanks a lot for the help!

Happy to help - I know that's painful when these things happen.

The firmware update is not difficult to do on the RS40 but you have to follow the JVC procedures exactly or nothing happens in the PC software used for downloading.


Let us know if we can help further.
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post #8 of 25 Old 07-21-2011, 05:37 PM
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Thoroughly review and consider the wide variety of Monster surge protection products. I've used their HTS Power Centers for over 15 years and have never lost anything due to surges or lightning strikes.

http://www.monstercable.com/power/Monster_Power.asp


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post #9 of 25 Old 07-21-2011, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 49Merc View Post

I've used their HTS Power Centers for over 15 years and have never lost anything due to surges or lightning strikes.

And my equipment survived that long or long with no surge protective device at all. So what?
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post #10 of 25 Old 07-22-2011, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

And my equipment survived that long or long with no surge protective device at all. So what?

Here in North Texas we incur very severe weather accompanied by extremely violent and frequent sky to ground lighting.

MY EQUIPMENT
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Panasonic HD DVD DMP-BD65 & Toshiba HD DVR A20
Infinity Alpha Series Speakers - 50's (2), 20's (2), 10's (2), 37c (1) & Velodyne Subwoofer
Panamax M4300-PM Power Center
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post #11 of 25 Old 07-22-2011, 09:46 AM
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Which of the Monster products would you recommend for just a projector. The other equipment on the rack is already protected.

I was OK for 10 years here in Pennsylvania without surge protection for my projector but my luck ran out.

Andy mentioned he puts his surge protector and all wires above the level of the projector. Why?
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post #12 of 25 Old 07-22-2011, 10:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veinboy View Post

...

Andy mentioned he puts his surge protector and all wires above the level of the projector. Why?

The projector is ceiling mounted. So to keep everything out of the way from people passing under the projector, we built the shelf. This way all wiring is well above eye level. Much neater appearance and no wires going up the wall (AC output is also towards the ceiling).

I used a simple APC (750 Volt - Amp) battery backup. Just wanted a surge protector and to have enough time to shutdown the projector and keep the fan going long enough to cool the bulb and system boards. The 750 APC UPS is designed for shelves and was relatively cheap with a lot of Joules in the surge protection category.
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post #13 of 25 Old 07-25-2011, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 49Merc View Post

Here in North Texas we incur very severe weather accompanied by extremely violent and frequent sky to ground lighting.

Here in North Texas I have been using APC brand even before Monster had anything other than audio cables. My oldest unit is now over 20 yrs old. Several brands other than Monster can do equally good job at lower costs.
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post #14 of 25 Old 07-25-2011, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
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Here in North Texas I have been using APC brand even before Monster had anything other than audio cables. My oldest unit is now over 20 yrs old. Several brands other than Monster can do equally good job at lower costs.

Very true statement.

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DirecTV HD DVR HR24 & AM21N OTA Receiver
Panasonic HD DVD DMP-BD65 & Toshiba HD DVR A20
Infinity Alpha Series Speakers - 50's (2), 20's (2), 10's (2), 37c (1) & Velodyne Subwoofer
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post #15 of 25 Old 07-25-2011, 12:32 PM
 
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Quote:
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Here in North Texas I have been using APC brand even before Monster had anything other than audio cables. My oldest unit is now over 20 yrs old. Several brands other than Monster can do equally good job at lower costs.

Since you brought it up, our house is all APC. Never had a problem (and also in Texas).
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post #16 of 25 Old 07-25-2011, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Since you brought it up, our house is all APC. Never had a problem (and also in Texas).

Andy,
You need to fix your profile and indicate you ARE in TX.

I've recently been following your posts and proud to see you're in the chicken fried nation (:-
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post #17 of 25 Old 07-25-2011, 01:57 PM
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you can run your cable wire through a surge protector, I would make sure your out side ground rod, for your meter can, probably #4 copper coming down to a ground round, make sure resistance is less than 20 ohms few are. Make sure all grounds to cable are tied in to your main ground rod, if you find it's hard to get less than 20 ohms, drive multiple ground rods tie together in a small counterpoise(your meter can should have a lightning arrestor attached as well). Try to give those lightning strikes a better path to ground before they get in the house, plus use the in house surge protectors to plug into.

just my ignorant opinion
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post #18 of 25 Old 07-25-2011, 02:38 PM
 
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Andy,
You need to fix your profile and indicate you ARE in TX.

I've recently been following your posts and proud to see you're in the chicken fried nation (:-

Done - thanks for the reminder!
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post #19 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 08:30 AM
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Regarding the surge/lightining problem that I previously posted on this thread, Andy was 100% correct in his theory when he said, "my initial guess is that the surge traveled in through the RS-40's power supply and over to the BDP-95 with the HDMI cable (or any other interconnected item.)

I sent the OPPO back and they fixed the HDMI port. Still no picture when I hooked it up to the projector.

So I sent the RS 40 projector back, they fixed the HDMI and the picture is back to normal. Problem solved.

I've learned that you can sometimes get away without a surge protector, but in my case it showed it can come back and bite you...bad. A lot of time and effort was wasted trying to troubleshoot and get it all fixed which could have been prevented. Even though everything in the rack was protected, the surge came in through the unprotected projector and fried the projector and through the HDMI cable the OPPO blu ray got it too. I can't believe I didn't think to plug the projector into a surge protector in the first place. My previous projector which didn't have HDMI and no surge protection never had a problem with surges for over 10 years.

Thanks again for the help Andy!
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post #20 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 09:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veinboy View Post

Regarding the surge/lightining problem that I previously posted on this thread, Andy was 100% correct in his theory when he said, "my initial guess is that the surge traveled in through the RS-40's power supply and over to the BDP-95 with the HDMI cable (or any other interconnected item.)

I sent the OPPO back and they fixed the HDMI port. Still no picture when I hooked it up to the projector.

So I sent the RS 40 projector back, they fixed the HDMI and the picture is back to normal. Problem solved.

I've learned that you can sometimes get away without a surge protector, but in my case it showed it can come back and bite you...bad. A lot of time and effort was wasted trying to troubleshoot and get it all fixed which could have been prevented. Even though everything in the rack was protected, the surge came in through the unprotected projector and fried the projector and through the HDMI cable the OPPO blu ray got it too. I can't believe I didn't think to plug the projector into a surge protector in the first place. My previous projector which didn't have HDMI and no surge protection never had a problem with surges for over 10 years.

Thanks again for the help Andy!

Happy to help - sorry about the money you had to spend on this. Is your RS40 ceiling mounted and is the AC plug at the same level as the RS40?
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post #21 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 09:17 AM
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The projector is mounted in an old custom made hush box (and hung in the box upside down) at the back of the room. I've taken the front of the box off to get more cool air around it since the projector is already quiet.

The AC outlet is about 6 inches below the projector in the back of the box. I am planning on getting a surge protector today and just laying it on the bottom of the box below the projector where no one can see it.

Is there any brand of surge prptector you would recommend for just a projector? I looked at some Belkins at Home Depot yesterday. Some proected up to 900 joules and others up to 4000 joules. I was going to buy one today or get it on line if you recommmended a certain brand like APC or Monster or something else.
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post #22 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 11:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veinboy View Post

The projector is mounted in an old custom made hush box (and hung in the box upside down) at the back of the room. I've taken the front of the box off to get more cool air around it since the projector is already quiet.

The AC outlet is about 6 inches below the projector in the back of the box. I am planning on getting a surge protector today and just laying it on the bottom of the box below the projector where no one can see it.

Is there any brand of surge prptector you would recommend for just a projector? I looked at some Belkins at Home Depot yesterday. Some proected up to 900 joules and others up to 4000 joules. I was going to buy one today or get it on line if you recommmended a certain brand like APC or Monster or something else.

You're going about it the right way. Look for the joules. I use APC battery backups (allows the bulb to cool off as well, if power goes out) and the stepped sin doesn't get in the way since during a power failure the projector is either off or is being shutoff - I just need a few seconds to hit standby and then a minute or so for the fan to run.

Just make sure you get high joules and (if battery backup) that the battery isn't providing power when the house power is on (some cheap battery backups run main power through the battery all the time - don't know how they actually charge).
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post #23 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 11:31 AM
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it would be "nice" if the failures (this and others) could be categorized/analysed to see what actually failed as opposed to "hdmi port failure". My "guess" on the "power spike" type failures that potentially the "weak link" is the EDID ciruit layout/design which uses a 5v "feed loop" to do its things but it would sure be nice to find "real data" on the specific failure modes that companies / hdmi systems are seeing... I haven't seen any anywhere... has anyone else???
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post #24 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 12:19 PM
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No real data available that I have seen, at least to you and me. This is HDMI's dirty little secret and nobody is talking. I am sure the chip manufacturers do the analysis, stripping away the IC layer by layer to see what happens in various failure modes. Surge protection of HDMI circuits is problematic because even a little extra capacitance can affect the operation of the chip. There are ESD protection chips available, but I don't think they can handle the current of a surge.
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post #25 of 25 Old 09-03-2011, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Look for the joules.

Just a word on joule ratings. They are useless for comparing between manufacturers because there is no industry standards for them. They might be useful for comparing devices within a given manufacturer's product line, assuming the manufacturer was consistent.
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