HDMI cables do not send 1's and 0's!!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Please tell me what you think. I'm sure this will open a can of worms but I'm genuinely curious.

I tend to agree with most people on here and believe that a cheap monoprice cable is as good as an expenisve monster cable as lng as they are both rated high speed and under 30ft. and made of quality material. One of the most popular arguments for people trying to convince someone why a cheap cable is just as good as an expensive one is:

"HDMI cables are digital so they send 1's and 0's. The component will either receive the zeros and ones that the the other sent or it wont, so there will either be a picture or there wont be. A $500 monster cable sends and receives zeros and ones the same way a $30 monoprice or bluejean cable does!"

Except that they dont send ones and zeros! They carry electric signals that represent ones and zeros. A 1 is a positive signal and a zero is a negative, or nothing, signal. the order in wich these ones and zeros are configured tell wich signals and at what time and in what order to send to make the correct information. Its kind of like morris code. when these signals are received by the device they are transfered back into ones and zeros for the device to read and figure out what the ones and zeros mean, of course its much more complicated and probably not exactly a perfect explenantion, but thats the just.

So my question is since its not ones and zeros their sending but electric signals, isnt it possible that because of any number of reasons(inferior quality material used, interference, length, etc.) these signals are degraded, weakened, lost, downgraded, sent in the wrong order, etc.? Couldnt that just cause a slight downgrade in picture quality, or glitch, or static, noise, or any number of things that could result from a poor signal being sent? Even if it was just one milisecond on one tiny little positve signal? I'm not saying this is correct, not at all, I really have no idea. I was just hoping to get some input from some more educated people on the subject.

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post #2 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 05:02 AM
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Yes, if the cable characteristics are poor then the signal will degrade. It WILL NOT degrade in an analog manner, however, where the "colors fade out" or "black levels change" or "the picture has less pop" as some people claim. Digital "sparkles", pixellation, and total picture loss are the symptoms of a bad cable.

A bad digital cable affects the quality of transmission, but not the content of that transmission itself. My analogy is a bad ethernet cable: it may lead to dropped packets, longer connection times, or loss of connection altogether, but it will not cause spelling errors on the webpages you visit or make jpegs any less vibrant.
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post #3 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petern View Post

Yes, if the cable characteristics are poor then the signal will degrade. It WILL NOT degrade in an analog manner, however, where the "colors fade out" or "black levels change" or "the picture has less pop" as some people claim. Digital "sparkles", pixellation, and total picture loss are the symptoms of a bad cable.

A bad digital cable affects the quality of transmission, but not the content of that transmission itself. My analogy is a bad ethernet cable: it may lead to dropped packets, longer connection times, or loss of connection altogether, but it will not cause spelling errors on the webpages you visit or make jpegs any less vibrant.

I want to believe this but I would like to see some evidence or documentation on some conteolled tests or something of that sort. Do you know of any links.

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post #4 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 07:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

I want to believe this but I would like to see some evidence or documentation on some conteolled tests or something of that sort. Do you know of any links.

Then read through the archives here or visit the HDMI Org web pages. There are tons of documentation that show this.

Anyway, the 1s and 0s are electrical charges, of course. You really didn't think there were miniscule 1s and 0s trailing each other in a row inside the cable, did you? Of course it is an electrical charge but not the way you descibe. The edges of the transitions, the differences between the electrical signals and the clock signal are all used to determine whether it's a 1 or a 0. The method you wrote would result in a great amount of noise and could not be used at high speeds, so that's not "the just".

The signal includes parallel data packets. However, what the packets can't do is to get out of order inside the cable. That's just silly. One charge isn't going to quickly run past another inside the cable.

Errors do occur - particularly with poorly designed cables. But, as stated above by petern, the results will not be subtle. They will be sparkles, a screen where you get blocks of a single color, no picture, lines running throughout the picture, etc. You will not see things that require intelligent changes to the bits - such as a slight drop in contrast or a brighter picture or colors being washed out. These are all subtle changes that would require the pixel numeric representations to be all dropped by a consistent amount. Noise is random. If you see a pattern in the data, it is no longer noise.

However, when we say it's 1s and 0s in the cable, that is a simplification to make it easier for people to understand that these aren't old fashioned analog signals but instead signals where there are only two states (1 or 0) in the signal being transmitted.

So, suggest you do some reading on the engineering side of HDMI and get a good understanding of differential signaling concepts. Here's a starting point:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hdmi1.htm

Also, what is Morris Code? I've looked and all google will do is change the search to Morse Code. So, what type of encoding scheme were you trying to describe when you wrote, "Its kind of like morris code." in your original append?
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post #5 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


Then read through the archives here or visit the HDMI Org web pages. There are tons of documentation that show this.

Anyway, the 1s and 0s are electrical charges, of course. You really didn't think there were miniscule 1s and 0s trailing each other in a row inside the cable, did you? Of course it is an electrical charge but not the way you descibe. The edges of the transitions, the differences between the electrical signals and the clock signal are all used to determine whether it's a 1 or a 0. The method you wrote would result in a great amount of noise and could not be used at high speeds, so that's not "the just".

The signal includes parallel data packets. However, what the packets can't do is to get out of order inside the cable. That's just silly. One charge isn't going to quickly run past another inside the cable.

Errors do occur - particularly with poorly designed cables. But, as stated above by petern, the results will not be subtle. They will be sparkles, a screen where you get blocks of a single color, no picture, lines running throughout the picture, etc. You will not see things that require intelligent changes to the bits - such as a slight drop in contrast or a brighter picture or colors being washed out. These are all subtle changes that would require the pixel numeric representations to be all dropped by a consistent amount. Noise is random. If you see a pattern in the data, it is no longer noise.

However, when we say it's 1s and 0s in the cable, that is a simplification to make it easier for people to understand that these aren't old fashioned analog signals but instead signals where there are only two states (1 or 0) in the signal being transmitted.

So, suggest you do some reading on the engineering side of HDMI and get a good understanding of differential signaling concepts. Here's a starting point:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hdmi1.htm

Also, what is Morris Code? I've looked and all google will do is change the search to Morse Code. So, what type of encoding scheme were you trying to describe when you wrote, "Its kind of like morris code." in your original append?

Lol, I knew this would get some people in a tiff. I wasn't trying to upset you man I was trying to find an answer, wich I appreciate from Petern, but I obviously left room to be corrected. It just shows bad form on your part the way you go about answering when I'm trying to learn something. You come at me like I'm saying "this is it how it is!" and "you guys are wrong!" when I don't know am just trying to find the answer.

Yes I did know they were charges not 1s and 0s but I got tired of people stating that and didn't know the answer to my question so I wanted to ask. Like I said I also I didn't know the exact way it happened that's why I said "the just" and left room to be corrected, and it is the just, a lot more than "1s and 0s" is, haha. It's funny you give me crap for saying "the just" in my description when you then stated this: "However, when we say it's 1s and 0s in the cable, that is a simplification(hmm, simplification, another word for "the just") to make it easier for people to understand that these aren't old fashioned analog signals but instead signals where there are only two states (1 or 0) in the signal being transmitted."

Yes and please forgive, I misspelled morse. I actually had no idea it was spelled that way, I don't think I've ever spelled it before but I think most people will know what it means. I'm also on my phinenubers and it auto corrects a bunch of what I spell.

Also I will check out the links you gave me to see if there any good but probably not the archives I would like to get some real data, not peoples opinion kn a forum. Maybe if I know them and their credentials and have talked to.them a bit.

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post #6 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 09:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

Lol, I knew this would get some people in a tiff. I wasn't trying to upset you man I was trying to find an answer, wich I appreciate from Petern, but I obviously left room to be corrected. It just shows bad form on your part the way you go about answering when I'm trying to learn something. You come at me like I'm saying "this is it how it is!" and "you guys are wrong!" when I don't know am just trying to find the answer.

Yes I did know they were charges not 1s and 0s but I got tired of people stating that and didn't know the answer to my question so I wanted to ask. Like I said I also I didn't know the exact way it happened that's why I said "the just" and left room to be corrected, and it is the just, a lot more than "1s and 0s" is, haha. It's funny you give me crap for saying "the just" in my description when you then stated this: "However, when we say it's 1s and 0s in the cable, that is a simplification(hmm, simplification, another word for "the just") to make it easier for people to understand that these aren't old fashioned analog signals but instead signals where there are only two states (1 or 0) in the signal being transmitted."

Yes and please forgive, I misspelled morse. I actually had no idea it was spelled that way, I don't think I've ever spelled it before but I think most people will know what it means. I'm also on my phinenubers and it auto corrects a bunch of what I spell.

Also I will check out the links you gave me to see if there any good but probably not the archives I would like to get some real data, not peoples opinion kn a forum. Maybe if I know them and their credentials and have talked to.them a bit.

Well then don't sound like one of the pundits on TV who state an opinion as fact and then want someone to disprove them without providing any shred of evidence - which is what you did. A simpler way would have been to do your own research and then ask how HDMI signaling is done. Much simpler and less abrasive way.

And, "the just" is called a colloquialism and is not a definition so it can mean just about anything.

The funny thing is you took my comment about "Morris code" to be a slam. I was actually giving you credit for finding an encoding scheme that I didn't know about.

Anyway, did you get an answer to your question? I really did provide you an accurate response but I'm not sure you realized that.
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post #7 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


Well then don't sound like one of the pundits on TV who state an opinion as fact and then want someone to disprove them without providing any shred of evidence - which is what you did. A simpler way would have been to do your own research and then ask how HDMI signaling is done. Much simpler and less abrasive way.

And, "the just" is called a colloquialism and is not a definition so it can mean just about anything.

The funny thing is you took my comment about "Morris code" to be a slam. I was actually giving you credit for finding an encoding scheme that I didn't know about. I won't make that mistake again.

Anyway, did you get an answer to your question? I really did provide you an accurate response but I'm not sure you realized that.

I did not state an opinion as fact, you might have took it that way, but it wasn't. It wasn't even my opinion, it was a question. I left plenty of room for correction and said a few times this could be wrong, I don't believe this, etc. Etc. I'm.not even going to get back into "the just" thing,lol. Actually the morris code part was the only thi.v I didn't take as a slam. I thought it amusing you thought I was talking about an encoding scheme and wanted to point out my own stupid spelling errors.

To.answer your last question, no. I did not get an answer yet. Maybe after i check out some of your links. I'm sure you did give an accurate response but you can't go around taking everbodys word who thinks they know something, and believing everhing you read. Ive been on forums with people who have 20,000 posts and have followings and are in that line of work but still have no idea what they are talking about. You have to get information from a variety of sources before you come to a conclusion. Anyway thankyou for your response and I think we both misunderstood each other a couple times.

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post #8 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 10:12 AM
 
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For further education on HDMI, try this thread,
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1346821

Here's a case where someone states as fact that they can tell a difference between HDMI cables, even when there are no errors.

As much we all got upset by one of the appenders (who can no longer append), the information that came out between the garbage explains HDMI pretty well. Just ignore the "garbage"...
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post #9 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 01:26 PM
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OP, here is an article I like: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...oundry-vs-hdmi

Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Errors do occur - particularly with poorly designed cables. But, as stated above by petern, the results will not be subtle. They will be sparkles, a screen where you get blocks of a single color, no picture, lines running throughout the picture, etc.

I believe this, but I've read something by a guy who made an HDMI overlay device that seems to state that noise could appear as small changes to the image.

Quote:


The natural bit error rate of HD video links is atrocious; but this is acceptable, because the human eye probably won't detect bit errors even on the level of 1 in every 10,000 bits (at high error rates, users see a sparkle or snow on the screen, but largely the image is intact). Therefore, this latitude in allowing pixel-level corruption is necessary to keep consumer costs low; otherwise, much higher quality cables would be required along with FEC techniques to achieve a bit error rate that is compatible with strict cryptographic verification techniques such as full-frame hashing.

So, is there something between "bit-perfect" transmission and noticeably corrupted transmission? Pixels that are slightly "off" but in a non-uniform way?
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post #10 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 03:06 PM
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Man, is this subject not gonna go away? I was hoping for a definite explanation.

But, here's my take. I am not a full EE (Electrical Engineer) but I do have a B.S. in Information Systems and a 2 years Digital Electronics diploma.

Yes, in the basic level, even digital signals ARE analog so degradation DO happends and that's why you cannot run a cable forever because electrons "losses speed" as more copper it has to traversed. HOWEVER, in a digital system, the devices on both ends typically are built so that they "handshake" with each other, at the end of a digital stream (call it packet) typically there is a checksum (look it up if u don't know that a checksum is) and the receiving device compares the data received versus this checksum and decide whether the packet is good and no bits have been changed or lost, else it sends a message to the sending end "hey buddy, this last packet is bad, send it again." This is how it workds with CD. Error correction is what this checksum thing is doing.

So the big question is, DOES HDMI have digital error correction? If u can answer this question then you can make this thread go away.

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post #11 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 03:11 PM
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HDMI has no error correction for the video/audio packets.
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post #12 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 03:26 PM
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HDMI has no error correction for the video/audio packets.

That is gonna make the expensive cablers SOOOOooooo happy, and am afraid for our wallets. Well actually not mine, I have copper, not golden ears.

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post #13 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a another question. When hdmi reaches the length where it starts to be no good does it get worse and worse even over length, even if that length is extremly small or would the complete picture drop automatically. Say its absolutly perfect at 30 ft could it drop completly out at 30 ft and a thousanth of an inch or would it take some room to degrade and finally drop out. If the later is the case then whose to say if hdmi doesn't have error correction/check sum that the signal isn't degarding and losing picture quality, no matter how minute or minuscule. Even at small lenghts. Again, just questions and ideas.

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post #14 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:29 PM
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The longer the cable, the lower the bit rate it can deliver without errors. First you will start to see sparkles (single pixels wrong), then longer sequences of bad pixels, and ultimately no picture at all. If you aren't seeing sparkles or worse, it is as good as it gets.
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post #15 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

That is gonna make the expensive cablers SOOOOooooo happy...

HDMI is not nearly so fragile as some would make you believe. It is quite possible to do 1080p60 without sparkles at 50 feet or more.
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post #16 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:47 PM
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I have a another question.

Still?

Here's scenario where most of us are familiar with: OTA.

So Over the Air digital broadcast is basically one-way, there is no handshake and back&forth error correction.

Obviously, nothing, specially over-the-air, lots of opportunities for corrupt data, ur gonna get PERFECT transmission 100% of the time. The receiver may have some predictive correction mechanism but am not sure, I am not TV specialist.

When the OTA signal gets bad at some point, BAM! u getting all these pixelation, and it gets bad, u don't get just a little thing, it seems to happen very suddenly. Digital is like that, when it fails, it tend to fail BAD.

Now with air, interferences comes and go, but with a wire, we are talking about distance, a single variable, so that's easy.

Now we have to go a little into electronics, just a little. With digital electronics, circuits are said to be 0 or 1. But when you are designing this circuit, it tells that permissive "0" *has* to be between 0 and 0.7 volts, and that "1" is 3.75 to 5 volts. (TTL logic) so between 0.71 and 3.74 is a NO-MAN LAND. So most digital system toggle between 2 voltages and should never sits in this gray area.

If the said HDMI connection is 50FT max, they are saying within the 50FT it's GUARANTEED to fire up all the circuits and no electronics is gonna get confused what to do. Beyond the 50FT, one gets into this NO-MAN land and it depends on how fault-tolerant the circuits is designed for so u may get lucky, or not. So at 50.1FT, you start playing with luck.

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post #17 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The longer the cable, the lower the bit rate it can deliver without errors. First you will start to see sparkles (single pixels wrong), then longer sequences of bad pixels, and ultimately no picture at all. If you aren't seeing sparkles or worse, it is as good as it gets.

So if that is true shouldn't that should prove right there that when people say "its digital, it will either send the picture or it won't" is false and that digital signal can degrade and with it, picture quality? If it does gets worse over length whose to say a cheaper cable doesn't lose a tiny minute amount of the info at smaller distances that we just can't tell cause it hasn't reached a long enough distance? If you had a better quality possibly more expensive cable made with higher quality conductive materials, like gold vs copper or something like that, it might deliver a better picture and not lose that signal even at small distances? Again, questions.

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post #18 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:54 PM
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So, is there something between "bit-perfect" transmission and noticeably corrupted transmission? Pixels that are slightly "off" but in a non-uniform way?

Well, some errors will certainly result in wrong colors that are close to the correct ones. But for it to operate that way in general would require some preference on the part of errors for the low order bits which isn't the case. Also, with the 8 to 10 encoding done on the video, more than half the possible symbols are forbidden. So there is large probability that bit errors will result in forbidden symbols that cannot be translated back to a valid 8-bit symbol and the resultant sparkle.

So, yes a single pixel can be wrong and still close to what it should be. But if you have those, you almost certainly have pixels that are much further off, and sparkles as well. So, if you aren't seeing sparkles, the picture is about as good as it can get.
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post #19 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBobb View Post

Still?

Here's scenario where most of us are familiar with: OTA.

So Over the Air digital broadcast is basically one-way, there is no handshake and back&forth error correction.

Obviously, nothing, specially over-the-air, lots of opportunities for corrupt data, ur gonna get PERFECT transmission 100% of the time. The receiver may have some predictive correction mechanism but am not sure, I am not TV specialist.

When the OTA signal gets bad at some point, BAM! u getting all these pixelation, and it gets bad, u don't get just a little thing, it seems to happen very suddenly. Digital is like that, when it fails, it tend to fail BAD.

Now with air, interferences comes and go, but with a wire, we are talking about distance, a single variable, so that's easy.

Now we have to go a little into electronics, just a little. With digital electronics, circuits are said to be 0 or 1. But when you are designing this circuit, it tells that permissive "0" *has* to be between 0 and 0.7 volts, and that "1" is 3.75 to 5 volts. (TTL logic) so between 0.71 and 3.74 is a NO-MAN LAND. So most digital system toggle between 2 voltages and should never sits in this gray area.

If the said HDMI connection is 50FT max, they are saying within the 50FT it's GUARANTEED to fire up all the circuits and no electronics is gonna get confused what to do. Beyond the 50FT, one gets into this NO-MAN land and it depends on how fault-tolerant the circuits is designed for so u may get lucky, or not. So at 50.1FT, you start playing with luck.

Yeah still

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post #20 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 07:02 PM
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i see the op still hasn't given up...

his last try at this...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #21 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

If you had a better quality...it might deliver a better picture...

Any HDMI cable will deliver an essentially perfect picture up to some length at a given bit rate. Beyond that length, the picture you see will start to degrade as described above. The difference between cables is how far they will carry a given bit rate before the picture starts to deteriorate.

The obvious difference between cables that affects what length a cable will work adequately at is the size of the wires. 22AWG cables in general work at longer distances than 28AWG cables. You can gain a slight improvement by silver plating the wires. It is not necessary to use solid silver wire because of skin effect. Gold is inferior to copper and silver as a conductor and wouldn't buy you a thing as far as HDMI cable performance goes. With a given wire gauge, the differences that have most to do with how the cable performs are how well the manufacturer can maintain cable impedance and how close the lengths of the wires are to each other.

I'll say it again. If you aren't getting sparkles or worse, the picture is as good as it gets.
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post #22 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i see the op still hasn't given up...

his last try at this...

Damn, good memory I didn't even remeber that. I havnt even thought about this from that day until recently. I'm not just gonna take a couple guys word for it, sorry if your offended. You have to question things ya know. If people never questioned conventional wisdom then nothing would ever progress. Just trying to learn and making sure I'm learning the right thing when people still say otherwisabout hdmi cables. Just had some ideas I wanted to toss out there. Once again some people really get weird about the hdmi thing. It's like the other thread, just questions and ideas, not accusations.

What field are you guys all in out if curiosity, where you would be interested enough to spend your time in an hdmi only thread.

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
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post #23 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i see the op still hasn't given up...

his last try at this...

Maybe that explains his name
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post #24 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe that explains his name

Oh god, ok I'm done here. I don't drink by the way. You guys and your hdmi cables get so weird about everything. Just trying to ask questions and learn once again. Have fun in your amazingly diverse forum topic.

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
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post #25 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 09:27 PM
 
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Oh god, ok I'm done here. I don't drink by the way. You guys and your hdmi cables get so weird about everything. Just trying to ask questions and learn once again. Have fun in your amazingly diverse forum topic.

Thin skinned, eh? He who throws stones should expect a few back. He who spouts nonsense (or non-science) will get some grief back in this forum.

But...the answer to your question is that noise is random. So, if you assume a single bit noise effect then you're talking about a single pixel flashing 1 time in all of the frames. However, the effect is not likely to occur - noise doesn't usually travel one bit at a time, particularly with a high-speed link.

So if you get a noise group then that will effect multiple bits and as Colm said the effects will be multiple pixels that are unreadable. One thing we haven't mentioned is that there is also encryption on the video/audio (HDMI philosophy that all users are probably crooks - OK, I paraphrased). Since the encryption methods are not widely available (unlike the key) it's hard to say that once you introduce noise into an encrypted signal, how much of it can you get back to the original signal on the other end?

So combine that with random noise affecting multiple bits and you get a very observable effect, as stated previously or HDCP might get in the way and not decode the signal at all. But, what will not happen is that all of the low order bits will be changed in exactly the same way. That would not be noise but an intelligent pattern.

It's not a wireless transmission medium, like TV or satellite, with a compressed video signal where you can have bad BER and so error correction is included. HDMI is uncompressed and designed for a wire only. BER should be non-existent for most users at the 1080p/60 (or any of the current HDMI formats), if they are using a good non-damaged certified-length cable. If not, then they'll have obvious errors.

And, if someone is really worried about this, then use component video. No bit errors and the picture quality, if properly tuned with a good cable, should be the same for the resolution between HDMI and component. Or someone could pump a signal down an HDMI pipe and compare the results with the source. That's essentially what an eye pattern test does (we talked about this last time) and it is required for high speed certification at data rates exceeding those of all current HDMI chipsets.

http://www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...c-versions.htm

And, glad we talked before (thanks Chris for the link). I went back and re-read the February appends. I think Colm gave you really good advice back then that still applies,

"Neither of us has knocked the cables you asked about. The only thing we have knocked is the way companies like Monster and Chord advertise.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice and research how HDMI cables work and the factors that affect the signal..."
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post #26 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thin skinned, eh? He who throws stones should expect a few back. He who spouts nonsense (or non-science) will get some grief back in this forum.

But...the answer to your question is that noise is random. So, if you assume a single bit noise effect then you're talking about a single pixel flashing 1 time in all of the frames. However, the effect is not likely to occur - noise doesn't usually travel one bit at a time, particularly with a high-speed link.

So if you get a noise group then that will effect multiple bits and as Colm said the effects will be multiple pixels that are unreadable. One thing we haven't mentioned is that there is also encryption on the video/audio (HDMI philosophy that all users are probably crooks - OK, I paraphrased). Since the encryption methods are not widely available (unlike the key) it's hard to say that once you introduce noise into an encrypted signal, how much of it can you get back to the original signal on the other end?

So combine that with random noise affecting multiple bits and you get a very observable effect, as stated previously or HDCP might get in the way and not decode the signal at all. But, what will not happen is that all of the low order bits will be changed in exactly the same way. That would not be noise but an intelligent pattern.

It's not a wireless transmission medium, like TV or satellite, with a compressed video signal where you can have bad BER and so error correction is included. HDMI is uncompressed and designed for a wire only. BER should be non-existent for most users at the 1080p/60 (or any of the current HDMI formats), if they are using a good non-damaged certified-length cable. If not, then they'll have obvious errors.

And, if someone is really worried about this, then use component video. No bit errors and the picture quality, if properly tuned with a good cable, should be the same for the resolution between HDMI and component. Or someone could pump a signal down an HDMI pipe and compare the results with the source. That's essentially what an eye pattern test does (we talked about this last time) and it is required for high speed certification at data rates exceeding those of all current HDMI chipsets.

http://www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...c-versions.htm

And, glad we talked before (thanks Chris for the link). I went back and re-read the February appends. I think Colm gave you really good advice back then that still applies,

"Neither of us has knocked the cables you asked about. The only thing we have knocked is the way companies like Monster and Chord advertise.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice and research how HDMI cables work and the factors that affect the signal..."


BaHahabhaha. Wow. I can't resist. You guys are unbelievable, like girls in a book club or something. I was never throwing stones(until just then:b)and I was never spouting nonsense, not once, I was asking questions and throwing out ideas that could very well be complete nonsense, I didn't know. That's what I was trying to find out.I've been taking in the good info and laughing at the other stuff. It's you that has the thin skin by taking offense and getting riled up about simple questions. You guys in this hdmi thread are so weird about it I don't think you can tell the difernece between someone like me asking a question and someone saying the things I was asking questions about as fact. This thread and the audio threads man, wow.

But besides all the stupid stuff that didn't need be said I do apreciate your help and the info you and others have said on trying to inform me. Bye.

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
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post #27 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 10:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

BaHahabhaha. Wow. I can't resist. You guys are unbelievable, like girls in a book club or something. I was never throwing stones(until just then:b)and I was never spouting nonsense, not once, I was asking questions and throwing out ideas that could very well be complete nonsense, I didn't know. That's what I was trying to find out.I've been taking in the good info and laughing at the other stuff. It's you that has the thin skin by taking offense and getting riled up about simple questions. You guys in this hdmi thread are so weird about it I don't think you can tell the difernece between someone like me asking a question and someone saying the things I was asking questions about as fact. This thread and the audio threads man, wow.

But besides all the stupid stuff that didn't need be said I do apreciate your help and the info you and others have said on trying to inform me. Bye.

If we're "weird" and every 10 months you come back, doesn't that put you in the same boat? Very strange.

Anyway, you spent all of this append on my first paragraph and just barely mentioned the six other paragraphs with actual information in them. I'll assume you don't have any more questions and that we'll hear from you again in October 2012.

Sorry we hurt your feelings with our answers...

Also the Girls of American Book Clubs Antidefimation League (GAB-CLAL) called and they are upset. They want to have a word with you, mister!

(Oh, and the projector threads are even worse)
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post #28 of 36 Old 12-15-2011, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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If we're "weird" and every 10 months you come back, doesn't that put you in the same boat? Very strange.

Anyway, you spent all of this append on my first paragraph and just barely mentioned the six other paragraphs with actual information in them. I'll assume you don't have any more questions and that we'll hear from you again in October 2012.

Sorry we hurt your feelings with our answers...

Also the Girls of American Book Clubs Antidefimation League (GAB-CLAL) called and they are upset. They want to have a word with you, mister!

(Oh, and the projector threads are even worse)

Yes your assumption is very correct, no more...please. October 2012....hmmm, I think I've had my fill this time. Let's make it at least 2014. Il be looking over my shoulder for GAB-CLAL, they are a violient bunch

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
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post #29 of 36 Old 12-16-2011, 11:03 AM
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Also keep in mind that with HDCP, the video data is scrambled beyond the 8/10 coding for copy protection purposes. So in this case, the integrity of the received data is even more important.

IOW, this further disproves these silly expensive cable theories like "deeper blacks and richer colors". An error of even a low order bit in a scrambled byte set generally makes a huge difference - or error for that matter.

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post #30 of 36 Old 12-16-2011, 12:30 PM
 
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Also keep in mind that with HDCP, the video data is scrambled beyond the 8/10 coding for copy protection purposes. So in this case, the integrity of the received data is even more important.

IOW, this further disproves these silly expensive cable theories like "deeper blacks and richer colors". An error of even a low order bit in a scrambled byte set generally makes a huge difference - or error for that matter.

Glimmie, good to hear from you. You helped me back in the DVHS days with 1394.

Do you have any idea how many de-encrypted bits are potentially affected by a single encrypted bit being changed inadvertently? That's one of those questions I'm not sure I know who to ask (who would actually tell me).
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