HDMI Matrix Switch - Why is this so complicated???? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 143 Old 01-22-2014, 02:05 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Cool...cool.gif
alk3997 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 143 Old 01-22-2014, 03:55 PM
Member
 
whetstone1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

whetstone1

‘Momentarily’ previewing another Source is not a ‘simple’ task as it involves all interconnected devices to go through a complex handshake process to acquire the new Source then go through that same process (again) with the initial Source.

By "momentarily" I meant that you're not intending to continue watching the A/V source locally. The purpose is to route a source to an external destination. Probably the only reason you would view the signal locally while it is going to an external playback device is to briefly check what it looks like. When you select the source for your external destination, it really need handshake only once (the source with the external and your AVR). However, since most AVRs will not maintain a virtual connection with the source when your local system switches away to watch something else, then, sure, the source will re-handshake. . .but so what? It's no bigger a deal than the handshake that occurs when your AVR flips between your XBox and Bluray Disc player. It's not anything novel or expensive. . .that's what all HDMI equipment already does.

What matters is that when you are routing to the external destination, that destination is properly synced with the source, and that when you are not routing externally, the local destination is properly synced with it. If your local and external playback systems exhibit poor resolution or sound when both are viewing the source simultaneously while setting up the external session, that's not really an issue because it's not the situation you'll have when you're actually watching it (or listening to it or whatever).

Furthermore, if the switch is functioning as a true switch, rather than as a splitter, while routing externally, the source handshakes only with the external (the local playback system is logically disconnected and cannot monitor the signal at all). In such case, the only advantage of having passthrough ports is that it maintains the 1:1 correspondence between the sources and the AVR's input ports. (That is, for example, operating the switch won't cause your DVD player to end up feeding your AVR's STB port because the correspondence between the sources and the passtthrough ports is static.)
whetstone1 is offline  
post #93 of 143 Old 01-22-2014, 05:24 PM
Member
 
whetstone1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

With that background, you're asking for basically a 6 1x2 switches, with one of each switches outputs wired into a 6x2 matrix switch. Each of the elements have their own HDCP and EDID management. In addition you would like to be able to "pull the plug" on each of the switch outputs going into the matrix switch.

Yeah, basically. The oddball requirement being that, when you do not wish to use an outbound port, it can be disabled so as not to be included in the handshaking even if the external device is attached and powered up. (Oh yeah, and, if necessary for avoiding multi-device handshake issues, possibly prohibit both outbound ports from selecting the same source.)
Quote:
So what will happen if you pull one of the plugs. That means a change to the matrix switches HDMI configuration. HDCP will then want the matrix switch to re-handshake. Since all of the other switches are still connected, those 1x2 switches will then also re-handshake as will the switch you just pulled. Basically anything that is connected gets to re-handshake, even if the signal is just a passthru. That's the nature of HDCP.

Ah, I see. So if you're watching DirecTV on your home theater and an external zone powers up the BD player, your viewing will likely be interrupted while every re-handshakes. Not really much of a problem, I suppose. I can live with handshake pauses, as long as what I'm viewing and listening to is at the correct definition.
Quote:
We haven't even discussed how this interacts with the AVR yet.

I see that's where there are several potential issues. When a source device powers up, my AVR (probably most AVRs for that matter) automatically switches to it. Not sure if the behavior is based just on HDCP or more specifically on a (potentially configurable) CEC thing. It would be really annoying if activity in another zone causes the AVR to change inputs.

It might also mess with ARC. Essentially, if the passthrough ports are split, rather than switched (where a source can have a logical connection with either a passthrough or an outbound port, but not both), then all attached devices in all zones would be part of a single HDCP system. Throwing additional AVRs into the mix would further complicate it.

Perhaps it would be best then that the switch supports no mirroring at all. (Nor the ability for simultaneous local monitoring of an outbound signal.) That wouldn't be a dealbreaker. . .it would merely make for a slightly less versatile arrangement. Not a matrix splitter/switch at all, just a matrix switch.

And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, a 4x1 implementation would probably be nearly as useful as 6x2. (Which, I suppose, wouldn't even technically even be a matrix switch, but rather, just a selector switch.) Inputs 1-4 by default go to Passthrough 1-4, but any one (or none) of them may be redirected instead to the outbound port. I know it's of course not possible to ignore R&D costs, but I'm sure we've all seen some really oddball gear with a surprisingly low street price even though we can't imagine that there would ever be demand for more than maybe 1000 units worldwide. And a 4x1x4pt selector switch might not actually be as silicon-heavy (or need new chips) as the switch I originally described.
Quote:
I'm certainly not saying what you ask couldn't be done. I'm saying what you ask will have unintended handshaking consequences and will cost much more than I think you realize. You would also want to do a market analysis to find out how many people really need this unit. Most people are content with an AVR doing the switching. More AVRs have dual ports these days and some can even function as a matrix switcher for zone 2. So, the number of people who really want a passthru capability is probably a lot less than you think. But, neither of us know the answer to how many people actually want this.

I have not looked in a year or two (nor have I ever browsed in the $5000+ range), but I don't recall seeing any AVRs that would pass 5.1 and HD to additional zones. (The reason for this, I imagine, is because the AVR only has one set of HD filters, scalers, etc. However, things may have changed a lot since HD-over-analog shakedown.) I just want to pass the source in a raw format and let the destination deal with it.
Quote:
BTW, it is much cheaper to put the same capability into a Pioneer AVR than it is to put it into a ACME matrix switch. That's simply because the Pioneer AVR will sell a lot more units than the ACME matrix switch.

Good point.
whetstone1 is offline  
post #94 of 143 Old 01-22-2014, 10:20 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
I think you have a good understanding now. I hadn't even considered ARC and CEC in my earlier response. Let's see ARC would untouched on one output since that is TV to AVR only. But the passthru goes directly to the source. Hmmm. The EDID goes from the TV to the AVR and the passthru source. So TV says "yes, ARC". I don't think there is feedback to the TV, so that should be OK.

CEC is a mess though. Everything on the HDMI network sees the CEC signal. So you send a "TV on" signal over CEC, then all TVs connected will turn on. So I'd have to say CEC would be no different than a standard matrix switch unless the cable is completely disconnected.

Good questions...
alk3997 is offline  
post #95 of 143 Old 01-23-2014, 05:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 64
whetstone1

All of your ideas/suggestion would be great if we were still in the analog non-copy protected world.

You can’t have a unit which is sometimes a Switch, sometimes a Splitter, sometimes a Matrix and sometimes a Preview device – you either have a single Output Switch or you open up a whole world of HDCP and EDID complexity and create a Matrix with Passthru ports, /Mirrored ports, preview port etc. HDCP management, EDID management, Control system integration…

Your 4 x 1 Switch with 4-passthru ports doesn’t fit the ‘it’s simple’ design parameter because it doesn’t fit with how HDMI.org and its licensing partner DCP designed the ‘system.

http://www.digital-cp.com/about_dcp

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #96 of 143 Old 01-23-2014, 08:19 PM
Member
 
pgaiduk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
So I don't think my particular situation has been addressed so here goes.. and apologies if it has.

3 zones all 1080p.
The main zone is 5.1 through a Pioneer Elite AVR
Zone 2 & 3 are stereo (1 Sharp + sound bar and 1 Sony + TV speakers)
All switched through a KD 8x4 HDMI Matrix switch.

Of course the object is to retain 5.1 sound to the main zone while also feeding the stereo zones 2 & 3 from the same Blu-ray Player for instance.

What I'm unclear on is will any of these HDMI emulators reliably pass a usable audio signal to the stereo zones 2 & 3 while fooling the BDP into continuing to output surround sound for the main zone to use?
or...

Do I really need to buy a couple $300 AVRs for zones 2 & 3?
and if so...
is there a danger that the least common denominator will be sensed through the $300 AVR and through the matrix switch and still turn the BDP back to a stereo signal or will the AVRs buffer that and the BDP recognize them as 5.1 regardless of what they are putting out?
(or do I need to run the audio separately from the $300 AVRs pre outs?)
pgaiduk is offline  
post #97 of 143 Old 01-23-2014, 11:00 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
You can do all that and it won't help you. As we've mentioned many times, HDMI can only send one audio and one video stream at any time. So your desire to have both a multichannel audio and a stereo audio over HDMI at the same time can't happen. There may be some hope with HDMI 2.0 but you are a ways off of that being implemented with multiple audio streams.

Your best bet is still send the multichannel over HDMI and the stereo using digital audio (coax or optical). Use the source devices to generate both signals.

If you don't then you'll have to decode the HDMI multichannel, apply the appropriate downmix coefficients by reading the metadata in the stream and then combine that into stereo without clipping. It is doable but it would take work and money.

One other alternative is to get one of those HDMI to stereo audio adapters but most of them have issues with high resolution codecs such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA HD. Or, they cost just as much or more than a cheap AVR.

Remember, only one audio stream and one video stream at any time.
alk3997 is offline  
post #98 of 143 Old 01-24-2014, 04:49 AM
Member
 
pgaiduk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Yes I understand the one audio stream concept but I thought the object was to trick the source into thinking that it was feeding (in my case) three 5.1 capable zones instead of just one 5.1 and two stereo.
Would'nt using a 5.1 capable receiver for each zone accomplish that (even though two of the receivers would only use L/R preouts)?
Or cheaper yet, using two emulators?
pgaiduk is offline  
post #99 of 143 Old 01-24-2014, 05:55 AM
Member
 
pgaiduk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Actually I don't even need any inline emulators because my 8x4 matrix switch (which I haven't installed yet) has 12 EDID presets which can be forced on any or all inputs.
What remains to be seen is whether my Zone 2 2 CH sound bar or Zone 3 2CH TV will process any audio out of an HDMI cable feed that has an EDID which has been forced to 5.1.
My hope would be that they would just use the 2CH L/R and ignore the rest but I doubt if it will work like that?
pgaiduk is offline  
post #100 of 143 Old 01-24-2014, 06:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 64
The EDID emulator merely lets ‘you’ decide which Video and audio the Source Outputs over HDMI rather than the Source deciding based on the various EDID tables it receives from all connected devices.

Once the Source is outputting ‘your’ pre-selected video/audio over HDMI the Matrix simply duplicates that signal to all Zones – how you then deal with it is up to you.

Some Matrix will take Video+ Audio over HDMI + an additional audio feed over RCA/Optical and you can then decide if you want to ‘replace’ the 5.1 audio in the HDMI stream with 2.0 audio for certain of your Output Zones – this feature tends to be the preserve of higher end kit.

http://www.neoprointegrator.com/vandenberg.php

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #101 of 143 Old 01-24-2014, 07:36 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

Actually I don't even need any inline emulators because my 8x4 matrix switch (which I haven't installed yet) has 12 EDID presets which can be forced on any or all inputs.
What remains to be seen is whether my Zone 2 2 CH sound bar or Zone 3 2CH TV will process any audio out of an HDMI cable feed that has an EDID which has been forced to 5.1.
My hope would be that they would just use the 2CH L/R and ignore the rest but I doubt if it will work like that?

Right - so now you have a multichannel audio signal heading to a stereo device. That's exactly what the EDID emulation should do. If the device knows how to accept that multichannel signal you are set.

So, what type of multichannel? 7.1 LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, 5.1 PPCM, DSD, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital +, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS 96/24, DTS ES, DTS-HD MA, DTS-HR? (there are probably a few I'm forgetting)

The information as to whether the device can accept those signals is contained in the EDID. So, if the device could except a multichannel input over HDMI, it should already be in its EDID and you wouldn't need an EDID emulator.

If not, you will get no audio.

Let's say now you want to output stereo from a multichannel signal. What an AVR does in the decoder chipsets and then downstream is to take the multichannel input, divide it into its 6 or 8 component channels reads the metadata that is sent along with the audio and then combines the signals into stereo based on the what the metadata told it to do. In other words, for the left channel it doesn't simply take the left front + the left rear + 1/2 center + 1/2 LFE and call it a left channel. The metadata specifies the percentages (actually dB) of each channel to combine into a stereo pair. This way the dialog is still (barely) audible even if the fans are yelling at the ref during an NFL game on a stereo TV.

The other reason for the metadata is that if I combine just the left front and the left rear into one channel and both of those sources are near peaks, I'll overmodulate the combine channel significantly and make one of those really nasty digital noises instead of audio. The metadata steps-down each channel so that they never get combined into distortion.

That's what your AVR does for you when it combines multichannel into stereo. So, just make sure whatever method you use to convert from multichannel into stereo will do the same.

If you just take the Front L/R and throw out the other four channels, then you won't have dialog on many shows. NBC nightly news - no Brian Williams but you'll have commercial dialog; Big Bang Theory - no jokes but plenty of reaction from the audience; NFL Football - no Joe Buck but plenty of crowd noise and some commercial dialog.
alk3997 is offline  
post #102 of 143 Old 01-24-2014, 11:48 AM
Member
 
pgaiduk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thank you for your replies,
So if I feed dedicated 5.1 AVRs for zones 2&3 with HDMI, the source will recognize the EDID of these AVRs and allow 5.1 to pass.
But if I then use the HDMI out from the AVRs to feed the TVs will that kill the 5.1 from the source or do the AVRs' circuitry and processing isolate the source from the final EDID of the TV?
Because this is essentially what I'm doing in my main zone at present and I get surround there.
Thanks
pgaiduk is offline  
post #103 of 143 Old 01-24-2014, 01:35 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

Thank you for your replies,
So if I feed dedicated 5.1 AVRs for zones 2&3 with HDMI, the source will recognize the EDID of these AVRs and allow 5.1 to pass.
But if I then use the HDMI out from the AVRs to feed the TVs will that kill the 5.1 from the source or do the AVRs' circuitry and processing isolate the source from the final EDID of the TV?
Because this is essentially what I'm doing in my main zone at present and I get surround there.
Thanks

Yes, it works exactly as you are seeing. The AVR replaces the audio portion of the EDID with its own specification. On DENON receivers there is an option in the menu that essentially tells the receiver whether or not to replace the EDID. It isn't labeled that way, but that's really what is happening. It's actually labeled HDMI Amp or TV audio.
alk3997 is offline  
post #104 of 143 Old 01-28-2014, 10:20 PM
Member
 
whetstone1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

whetstone1

All of your ideas/suggestion would be great if we were still in the analog non-copy protected world.

Yeah, don't I know it! In the analog world, doing what I was originally describing would have been relatively straightforward.
Quote:
You can’t have a unit which is sometimes a Switch, sometimes a Splitter, sometimes a Matrix and sometimes a Preview device – you either have a single Output Switch or you open up a whole world of HDCP and EDID complexity and create a Matrix with Passthru ports, /Mirrored ports, preview port etc. HDCP management, EDID management,

I realize that. It's probably why there seem to be so very few HDMI matrix switches on the market. Almost all of them seem to be maxtrix splitter/switches. They allow sources to handshake with all the devices attached to the outputs, regardless of whether they have that source selected. (I know. . .it's by design, probably to keep all the active devices on the HDCP network properly registered with one another.)

From the discussion in this thread, it seems to be an issue with all HDMI matrix switch/splitters (except maybe for some extraordinarily pricey ones I see that have builtin scalers and such). I just figured that since many people already find matrix switch/splitters to be acceptably functional (as evidenced by the fact that both amateurs and installers continue to buy boatloads of non-top-end models), that their capabilities would be adequate for my suggested specifications (in which playback was generally intended for only a single zone at a time [the playback systems in other zones would be logically disconnected and not pulling signal]; but, when mirrored in multiple zones for temporarily monitoring during set up, high-def audio or video would not be required).

I came to understand that even that is asking too much of a matrix splitter/switch. (Now I'm not really even sure what they can do, if apparently they can't even be relied on to facilitate good handshaking between a single source and single display and subpar handshaking when more than one display is involved.) That is why I eliminated splitters and mirroring functionality from the description. That, and to avoid the issues of bridging two or more HD networks. (You may have missed my post from a few days ago.)

In what I last described, there is a static 1:1 correspondence between the inputs and the passthough outputs. In that respect, under normal operation (that is, without anything going to an external zone) it's just like having single cables between the sources and the inputs on the AVR. However, I want it to operate as a selector switch that can, when desired, override any one of those connections to re-route the source signal instead (not additionally) to an external zone. The idea still being that, even if someone in the main zone is using a source (for example, the game console), someone in zone 2 will remotely be able to access one of the other sources (for example, a BD jukebox) physically located in the main room. (Of course, if Zone 2 accidentally selects the game console [provided that it is one of the sources that goes through the switch], there will be screaming in the household. Such is life.) Under these conditions, HDCP and EDID should not be an issue because the selected source device will no longer be logically connected to the main zone's HDCP network, nor would any other main-room devices be connected to the external zone's network. Everything handshakes with what it's connected to, and doesn't with what it isn't.

Sure, it could be done with 4 A/B switches and a 4x1 splitter, but that wouldn't prevent the user from selecting output B for more than one source. (In this scenario, the average user might have difficulty troubleshooting connection issues unless she has a good picture in her mind of just how it operates. I could troubleshoot it, but I wouldn't expect my kids to understand it clearly enough to know that a switch is set wrong. [Well, actually, my kids seem to figure out such things pretty quickly. But maybe not Grandma.])

Alternatively, it could also be done with 4 A/B switches and a 4-to-1 selector switch, but that would have many of the same problems and also require correctly setting two switches each time. (I suppose that operation could be simplified if the A/B switches were autoswitches that gave priority to output B and the selector switch was a 5-to-1 so that there could be a "none" choice. But, apart from being more costly, autoswitches are often finicky, and can be especially so if they must be relied upon to detect, maintain, and properly release an HDMI connection.)

For that matter, it could be done by plugging & unplugging cables, but HDMI connectors are not intended for that (and it requires physical access to the tangle of cords). Or it could be done by hauling the source device into the other room. IMO, home theater owners would not wish to sacrifice that much convenience in order to gain versatility.

Having a switch that can selectively override/redirect any one (or none) of the connections with a single button or command is much cleaner. [Grandma could handle that.] As long as there's no mirroring, I'm not seeing a technical challenge as far as HDCP goes. It seems to me to be just an issue of integrating the switching into a single unit.

As I mentioned in my previous post, though, one unwanted side effect is that, when Zone 2 is done with a source and releases it back to the Main Zone, most AVRs will probably try to switch to it when the source tries to re-handshake (if still powered on, that is). . .causing some interruption [again, potentially eliciting screams from an unhappy gamer] and the annoying need to change the AVR's input selection back to what it was on. Thus, it would probably be best in most cases when done using a source remotely, to turn it off before switching away from it.
Quote:
Control system integration…

That is where I see the most potential for complication. If the switch is just being used to redirect a source to, for instance, a device to feed the signal over IP, all control could be local (press a button on the switch itself or an IR remote). But that would be unsuitable if what you want to do is control both the switch and a source device from another zone. For that kind of control, such a switch would likely have to support RS-232 control [as much as I hate long-run serial], some sort of smart control via HDCP, IP commands over LAN (or over HDbaseT or HDMI with Ethernet), or RF control, etc. Additionally, it would probably need an IR blaster/repeater with emitter ports. That doesn't necessarily mean great expense; you can find examples of all those control methods on even some really cheap matrix switches.

But, just because such control issues have already been solved many times before, does not mean that it can be modified cheaply for integration into a new product. (However, given the number of quick-to-market, back-alley-manufactured switches out there with such capabilities, I strongly suspect that development costs are not that high. The chips and code are apparently relatively easy to come by.) Another option, of course, would be to have separate control gear, rather than integrated into the switch itself; such equipment is currently available off the shelf. The complication with control is that there are so many options and no single "most preferred" method among them.
whetstone1 is offline  
post #105 of 143 Old 01-29-2014, 08:28 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

You can do all that and it won't help you. As we've mentioned many times, HDMI can only send one audio and one video stream at any time.
Pardon me, if this has been addressed already, but..
My HDMI 6X2 switch has, among others, two buttons. One is EDID and other is ARC.
EDID toggles between 2 ch, 5.1 and 7.1.
I have two zones/receivers to my hdmi switch. Output A of hdmi matrix is Lexicon MC1 with toslink audio connected from matrix switch to Lexicon processor.
Output B is connected to Sony, via hdmi.

So.. when I toggle edid button to 5.1 or 7.1, am I getting that via the optical output?
What exactly does this EDID button do? Is it telling the SOURCE, as to what audio output it should be sending via HDMI?

Also, what is the ARC button for? It toggles an on/off LED status light.

thanks.

BTW: This non name HDMI 6x2 switch continues to work fine - except with a couple of "work around" needs.
audvid is offline  
post #106 of 143 Old 01-29-2014, 02:37 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post

...
What exactly does this EDID button do? Is it telling the SOURCE, as to what audio output it should be sending via HDMI?

Also, what is the ARC button for? It toggles an on/off LED status light.

thanks.

BTW: This non name HDMI 6x2 switch continues to work fine - except with a couple of "work around" needs.

Without knowing more about the matrix switch I can't say what exactly is going on but in general, yes, the EDID button would send a signal (the EDID) to the source saying, "hey source, I can handle multichannel". It would also indicate what types of multichannel were acceptable. As you know, since you can't send both multichannel and stereo over HDMI at the same time, the button acts as a toggle switch.

I assume the ARC button would be for sending multichannel (Dolby Digital or DTS only) or stereo over ARC. ARC audio formats are limited compared to the available HDMI audio formats.
audvid likes this.
alk3997 is offline  
post #107 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 06:29 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Without knowing more about the matrix switch I can't say what exactly is going on but in general, yes, the EDID button would send a signal (the EDID) to the source saying, "hey source, I can handle multichannel". It would also indicate what types of multichannel were acceptable. As you know, since you can't send both multichannel and stereo over HDMI at the same time, the button acts as a toggle switch.

I assume the ARC button would be for sending multichannel (Dolby Digital or DTS only) or stereo over ARC. ARC audio formats are limited compared to the available HDMI audio formats.
So.. What exactly is being output at toslink and HDMI of the matrix switch, when the EDID button is - lets day at 5.1? What is ARC on/off again? Sending multi channel over ARC? What does that mean?
audvid is offline  
post #108 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 06:51 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
If I knew which model of 6x2 matrix switch you had, I might be able to answer your questions.
alk3997 is offline  
post #109 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 07:05 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post

FINALLY - I found a 6X2 switch.. On amazon.. I have not fully tried it out.. I will do so shortly.
It has even EDID selection for audio output through toslink! GREAT! I do hope this switch does NOT have flaws!
Oh BTW - Make sure you order a NEW, brand name, CR2032 battery (From Amazon is very cheap!). The remote does not work well with its supplied battery..

This switch is made in China and would not have a brand name written on it.. Each company is selling, using their own brand name.
Interestingly, someone on ebay has it for sale for $1,199.. Yes, its not a typo! And they claim that they have sold one already! What a scam! biggrin.gif


http://www.amazon.com/HD-602-Splitter-6-input-2-output-Supports/dp/B00F4ORUG4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389651776&sr=8-1&keywords=6X2+matrix+switch
This is the switch.. It does not have a brand name..
audvid is offline  
post #110 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 07:47 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post

This is the switch.. It does not have a brand name..

From the copy on Amazon it is a, " OREI HD-602 Switcher/Splitter." Of course the copy then goes onto say, "The HD-602 matrix has two HDMI inputs and two HDMI outputs, so you can switch between six input source devices and..."

So I'm not sure we can trust the copy. However, the model number seems to fit the function. I'll take a look...
alk3997 is offline  
post #111 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 09:08 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
I went out to the manufacturer's website:
http://orei.com/index.php/orei-hd-602-2x6-port-matrix-ultra-1080p-hd-resolutions-up-to-4k-2k-hdmi-switcher-and-splitter.html

Interestingly, they have no owners manual on the website (and they have the 6x2 backwards on their page.

These things seems to be available everywhere (including Sears and Shopping.com). So, hopefully someone has a manual of some type.
alk3997 is offline  
post #112 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 09:23 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
So, I'm sure I understand the EDID button. Basically it allows you to tell the source to send stereo, 5.1 or 7.1 audio or match the sink's (not the source's) capabilities. Their website says match the source's capabilities but that is incorrect.

I'm not sure what you mean by optical since the matrix switcher does not seem to have an optical output (some do). However, let me see if this will answer your question:

If you have HDMI through the matrix switch and a separate optical cable running from your source, then selecting stereo or 5.1 or 7.1 on your matrix switcher does not change the source's optical output. They are independent. To get multichannel you may have to select "bitstream" in the source's menu but other than that they are separate.

The HDMI EDID is actually very simple in concept. It is a data packet from the sink (the destination, such as a TV) to the source. In the data packet the sink tells the source what capabilities the sink has. This way the source can tailor its output to match the capabilities of the sink. Basically the idea is to keep an invalid signal from being sent by a source.

It gets more difficult when you combine two sinks since they both have EDIDs that have to be combined by the switch into one data packet.

I think you are right that the ARC button is simply ARC on/off. ARC goes from sink to source (same direction as the EDID). The ARC is designed to send TV tuner audio from a TV to a receiver so that a separate cable doesn't have to be run. The choices for the ARC audio are Stereo PCM, Dolby Digital and DTS only. This matches the capability of an optical/coax digital audio cable going from the TV to the receiver. It is a much lower bitrate than what is sent over HDMI as part of its standard audio.

I think I covered all of your questions, but if I missed one please let me know.
alk3997 is offline  
post #113 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 02:44 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
alk3397,
My switch does have toslink output.
Please Allow me to clarify:
I have two zones.
Zone 1 is Sony Projector with hdmi 1080i input (sony qualia 004) and Lexicon mc1 audio processor which does not have hdmi swtiching. So, HDMI Output A from switch is connected to Sony projector. Toslink audio output of the Switch is connected to the Lexicon MC1 audio processor.
Zone 2 is an epson 1080p projector with Sony receiver which has HDMI capability. HDMI output B of the matrix hdmi switch is connected to Sony receiver and hdmi output of sony receiver is connected to Optima projector.


There is no separate optical cabling running from my source to audio.

Could you please re-state your answers for the above set up?


I don't understand your explanation of ARC? What exactly is ARC doing in the above set up?

I would appreciate, if you would post your reply, exclusively to the above set up (I have no TVs. Only two projectors). The ARC switch is in the HDMI switch. What does it do?

Thanks.
audvid is offline  
post #114 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 03:01 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by audvid View Post

alk3397,
My switch does have toslink output.
Please Allow me to clarify:
I have two zones.
Zone 1 is Sony Projector with hdmi 1080i input (sony qualia 004) and Lexicon mc1 audio processor which does not have hdmi swtiching. So, HDMI Output A from switch is connected to Sony projector. Toslink audio output of the Switch is connected to the Lexicon MC1 audio processor.
Zone 2 is an epson 1080p projector with Sony receiver which has HDMI capability. HDMI output B of the matrix hdmi switch is connected to Sony receiver and hdmi output of sony receiver is connected to Optima projector.


There is no separate optical cabling running from my source to audio.

Could you please re-state your answers for the above set up?


I don't understand your explanation of ARC? What exactly is ARC doing in the above set up?

I would appreciate, if you would post your reply, exclusively to the above set up (I have no TVs. Only two projectors). The ARC switch is in the HDMI switch. What does it do?

Thanks.

That helps. I could not find any documentation or even a photo that showing a Toslink output from that switch. So knowing that it has Toslink helps.

You have two projectors which are stereo sinks. I believe neither projector has a TV tuner or any SmartTV internet capability.

The other thing to remember is that your sources can only send out one audio stream at any time. So the source can either send stereo or it can send 5.1 or it can send 7.1. But, it cannot send stereo and 5.1 at the same time over HDMI.

So, when your EDID switch is set to non-stereo it is telling the sources to send multichannel (5.1 or 7.1) when a multichannel program is available. That output goes from the source to the switch. The switch then decodes that audio and sends it out over Toslink. Your Lexicon picks up the optical output from the switch and uses it. The HDMI signal (including the audio) is also sent out to your Sony projector and the zone 2 Sony receiver. The Sony projector ignores the audio. The Zone 2 receiver picks up the multichannel audio and uses it and then forwards the signal to the Optima projector (which doesn't care about the audio).

Since you have two projectors and neither projector has a TV Tuner or some type of SmartTV capability, the ARC button will do nothing. It certainly can't with the Lexicon receiver anyway since there is no ARC input since it is not using HDMI. The Sony receiver may or may not have ARC but the Optima projector doesn't anyway. In the end that button should not do anything in your setup.

If you had a recent TV with ARC output and a receiver that could accept ARC, then you could use that to send audio from the TV to the receiver (kind of backwards) so you didn't have to run a separate cable. But, in your situation you have no ARC capabilities.

Most matrix switches don't change the ARC indicator because the matrix switches don't usually sit between the receiver and the TV. Most people use them more like what you are doing and in that situation an ARC button doesn't really help.
alk3997 is offline  
post #115 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 04:37 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
alk3997,
While i did not know anything about ARC, I had guessed/hoped that the EDID/optical out path works the way you explained it to be. Now that you have explained it, its reassuring to me, that I have connected the system correctly. I want to be able to get 5.1 channel audio output simultaneously through HDMI and Toslink. Could you please re-confirm that this is what is happening?

I did have a situation that the above connection did not work with my OPPO player that while edid was set to 5.1, the Sony was not outputing any audio. I had to switch the edid to 2 ch (I don't care about the 5.1 in the zone 2 - I have not even hooked up rear speakers in zone 2). This might well be oppo related and I will watch how the system is working. I am not 100% sure of the settings.. I will double check later.

I had posted else where as to why a WD media player (and may be (not sure) Even the OPPO 103 - I am guessing), would not simultaneously output 5.1. dolby digital through HDMI and toslink simultaneously (only 2 channel audio is output simultaneously through hdmi and toslink on wd media player). Some one had replied that it was sort of a big deal for a source to be able to do so, simultaneously..

How ever, you seem to say that the HDMI switch does output 5.1 dolby digital output simultaneously through HDMI and toslink. Is my understanding of what you said, correct?

Thank you.
audvid is offline  
post #116 of 143 Old 01-30-2014, 07:49 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
It should output DD simultaneously through HDMI and Toslink but only if the matrix switch manufacturer did it that way. In other words, the way the switch handles HDMI is (somewhat) written out in the HDMI spec. However, the way a matrix switch downmodes to Toslink is not a specification. So, you're at the mercy of the matrix switch manufacturer.

As we know the switch manufacturer doesn't even have an owner's manual online or pictures that show the back of the unit. So, it is quite possible that there is no way to send Dolby Digital out the Toslink, which would be a shame.

However, don't take my word for it since I don't have one of those switches and there is no documentation. Instead, with your setup, place a DVD into the OPPO. Play a DVD with a 5.1 Dolby Digital track. Verify on the Sony receiver that you are receiving Dolby Digital over HDMI. Once you have confirmed that, see what the Lexicon is showing. It should be showing Dolby Digital at that point if the matrix switch allows it. There are other ways around that.

If that doesn't work, take the optical cable from the matrix switch and hook it up to the OPPO. Also make sure that on the OPPO you go into the "audio" menu and select "bitstream" for the digital audio outputs (I think OPPO may use "S/PDIF" instead of digital audio). Then see if the Lexicon is getting Dolby Digital.

Let me know how that turns out and I can tell you if the switch will do what you want. Unfortunately there seems to be nothing online that will give me an answer without you testing the box.
alk3997 is offline  
post #117 of 143 Old 01-31-2014, 03:21 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
alk3997. Thanks for suggesting "bitstream". You are correct..

I read the thread about bitstream Vs lpcm. Some said select lpcm and other bitstream. It was 23 pages long and while I didn't read all pages, it was basically useless and I was confused as ever, whether to set up my oppo to output bitstream or lpcm.

Finally, I realized that only with bitstream am I getting a "dolby digital" display on my receiver. So, I left it at bitstream.
WD media player and dish hopper do not have that question - makes my life easier.

Anyway, I did the test with oppo and WD. Lets ignore the OPPO for now.. It is too much effort to go into details.
The switch does select between 2 ch (i see 48 khz pcm when I select 2 channel) and 7.1 channel (I see dolby digital 3/2.1 - what 3/2.1 means - I don;'t know)..

Anyway, the hdmi switch does seem to work fine and its edid button also seems to work fine and it does show Dolby Digital on both my MC1 (via toslink) and Sony receiver (via hdmi).
Thanks
audvid is offline  
post #118 of 143 Old 01-31-2014, 03:31 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
OK, let's see if I can explain bitstream first and then 3/2.1 and keep it to two or three paragraphs instead of multiple pages.

When you purchase a disc (or a file), the audio encoded on the disc or file is in a certain audio format. It can be stereo PCM (where PCM is just a way of saying that the numbers on the disc match the audio levels the system generates) or it can be multichannel. Multichannel is an easy way for me to say 5.1 channel or 7.1 channel or anything greater than stereo.

When you select bitstream, you are telling the OPPO to send out the audio in the exact format it is on the disc or the file. So if the disc is encoded in Dolby Digital multichannel, the OPPO will send Dolby Digital multichannel. If it is encoded in DTS, it will send DTS.

If you select LPCM, then the OPPO will decoded whatever format is on the disc, convert it to stereo PCM and send that instead. So if you want DTS or Dolby Digital, you have to tell the OPPO to send out bitstream. The PCM option is great for people with stereo TVs that have digital audio inputs.

It's a hair more complicated with Blu-Ray audio but that's the general idea.

3/2.1 is actually even easier. The first number is the number of front channels (3 = left front, center, right front). The second number is the number of back channels (2 is left surround and right surround) and the .1 is how many LFE channels you are using. The LFE is a bit more complicated because number of LFE channels does not equal number of subwoofers, but a .1 indicates that there is a single LFE channel that is supposed to go to a subwoofer. So, 3/2.1 is an exact match for 3 front speakers, 2 rear speakers and a subwoofer. It's a long hand version of 5.1.
audvid likes this.
alk3997 is offline  
post #119 of 143 Old 01-31-2014, 03:37 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
audvid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 21
thanks alk3997. Your explanation was much better compared to the thread with 23 pages of waste of time! Some people were suggesting LPCM setting in that thread - I get so tired of "know it alls who know the wrong answers"!

Anyway.. thanks! We are all set.. Folks, if you are in the market for a Matrix switch, just go buy this HDMI matrix switch and stop dreaming about your "wish list" (or you can always spend $499 on DVDO's version). This is one of the few "cheap chinese products", which actually seems to work very well!
audvid is offline  
post #120 of 143 Old 01-31-2014, 03:38 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Good to hear. Glad things worked out well!
alk3997 is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off