Some questions about HDMI-related problems - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I've recently moved from using a 4in/2out HDMI matrix switch box with a non-HDMI equipped AVR to an HDMI equipped AVR (Yamaha RX-A1000).

In my old setup, HDMI was for video only. I had 2 25 foot HDMI runs into the box and one 30 foot run from the box to my projector. I also had two six foot runs into the box and one six foot run to a small Dell HDMI equipped monitor. I never had any issues with this setup until the HDMI output of the cable box died (now use component with that device).

In my new setup, I have the following:

Sony PS3 (fat model/SACD) with 25 foot run to AVR.
Cambridge Audio DVD99 with six foot run to AVR.
Sony VPL-AW15 PJ display with 30 foot run from AVR.
Toshiba HD A2 with six foot run to AVR.
The other 25 foot run has been replaced by a component video run from my cable box (faulty HDMI output--haven't bothered to replace box--faulty output confirmed as it does not work with short or long cables with any of my three HDMI equipped displays and it happened before the new AVR was purchased).

Since moving to my new setup, I've had the following things happen:

PS3 signal seemed not to lock on with AVR. Tried swapping cable with other long one--did not fix the problem. Plugged the PS3 cable into the switch box, connected box to AVR with short 6 foot run. Solved the problem. Conclusion: Switch box has signal booster that AVR does not (feel free to correct me if that is not a logical conclusion).

DVD99 sometimes sends video with no audio OR with static when playing SACDs/CDs. No audio issues with DVD-A discs, though twice a brief (1 sec. or so, maybe less) total loss of audio/video--like a skip. Swapped the HDMI cable for another one (same length of 6 feet) and, so far, seems to have solved the issue, though I've not used it much since the swap.

No issues with HD A2, but I haven't used it much.

Also had strange occurrence with DVD99. Listened to a MCH DVD-A disc, no problem. Put in a CD (regular CD, not DTS), set the AVR to "STRAIGHT" mode, which should have lit up 3 lights on display (FL, FR, SUB). Instead, it lit up 6 lights (added Centre, SL and SR). Also played audio through all channels--as if matrixing the 2 channel signal. Could not select any other DSP setting on the AVR. Stopping and ejecting the disc did not change this behaviour. Changing inputs to other sources did not change the behaviour (though the other sources worked normally with STRAIGHT setting). Finally, unplugging the DVD99 HDMI cable, cycling it on and off, and replugging the HDMI cable brought things back to normal.

I suspect several things are happening here, but I don't know enough about how HDMI switching, handshaking and HDCP work to do more than guess.

So, here are my questions:

1) Can there be a fundamental incompatibility between my DVD99 and my RX-A1000?

2) Can such incompatibility (if it exists), affect the AVR's HDMI switching/processing so as to cause problems with other input/source connections?

3) Can having 2 different displays turned on at the same time, if each display has a different resolution (the projector is 1280x720 and the Dell monitor is 1600x1050), trip up the ability of the AVR to connect properly with an HDMI source (necessitating unplugging and replugging the HDMI cable at the AVR)?

From other threads I've read on various compatibility issues, it seems that Question 1) could be answered "Yes". If so, that's life. I can live with it for now as it is easy enough to unplug and replug the HDMI cable (I did not pay a lot for the player and will simply update it sometime later).

I hope the answer to number 2) is also "Yes", in the sense that residual problems will go away when I move on from the DVD99. That would be preferable to having to change the AVR or get it repaired.

As for number 3), if the answer is "Yes", that is easily solved by simply not turning on the two displays at the same time (I have no real need to do so, it's just happened that way a few times because I have no remote for the Dell monitor and I've sometimes turned on the PJ before turning off the Dell).

I know there are no definitive "one size fits all" answers to these questions. Moreover, these issues are annoying but hardly major in the grand scheme of things. I'm prepared to work around them until such time as I upgrade gear but I would like to understand why these issues are happening (could make it easier for me to live with them).

Thanks.
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post #2 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation View Post

I've recently moved from using a 4in/2out HDMI matrix switch box with a non-HDMI equipped AVR to an HDMI equipped AVR (Yamaha RX-A1000).

In my old setup, HDMI was for video only. I had 2 25 foot HDMI runs into the box and one 30 foot run from the box to my projector. I also had two six foot runs into the box and one six foot run to a small Dell HDMI equipped monitor. I never had any issues with this setup until the HDMI output of the cable box died (now use component with that device).

In my new setup, I have the following:

Sony PS3 (fat model/SACD) with 25 foot run to AVR.
Cambridge Audio DVD99 with six foot run to AVR.
Sony VPL-AW15 PJ display with 30 foot run from AVR.
Toshiba HD A2 with six foot run to AVR.
The other 25 foot run has been replaced by a component video run from my cable box (faulty HDMI output--haven't bothered to replace box--faulty output confirmed as it does not work with short or long cables with any of my three HDMI equipped displays and it happened before the new AVR was purchased).

Since moving to my new setup, I've had the following things happen:

PS3 signal seemed not to lock on with AVR. Tried swapping cable with other long one--did not fix the problem. Plugged the PS3 cable into the switch box, connected box to AVR with short 6 foot run. Solved the problem. Conclusion: Switch box has signal booster that AVR does not (feel free to correct me if that is not a logical conclusion).

DVD99 sometimes sends video with no audio OR with static when playing SACDs/CDs. No audio issues with DVD-A discs, though twice a brief (1 sec. or so, maybe less) total loss of audio/video--like a skip. Swapped the HDMI cable for another one (same length of 6 feet) and, so far, seems to have solved the issue, though I've not used it much since the swap.

No issues with HD A2, but I haven't used it much.

Also had strange occurrence with DVD99. Listened to a MCH DVD-A disc, no problem. Put in a CD (regular CD, not DTS), set the AVR to "STRAIGHT" mode, which should have lit up 3 lights on display (FL, FR, SUB). Instead, it lit up 6 lights (added Centre, SL and SR). Also played audio through all channels--as if matrixing the 2 channel signal. Could not select any other DSP setting on the AVR. Stopping and ejecting the disc did not change this behaviour. Changing inputs to other sources did not change the behaviour (though the other sources worked normally with STRAIGHT setting). Finally, unplugging the DVD99 HDMI cable, cycling it on and off, and replugging the HDMI cable brought things back to normal.

I suspect several things are happening here, but I don't know enough about how HDMI switching, handshaking and HDCP work to do more than guess.

So, here are my questions:

1) Can there be a fundamental incompatibility between my DVD99 and my RX-A1000?

2) Can such incompatibility (if it exists), affect the AVR's HDMI switching/processing so as to cause problems with other input/source connections?

3) Can having 2 different displays turned on at the same time, if each display has a different resolution (the projector is 1280x720 and the Dell monitor is 1600x1050), trip up the ability of the AVR to connect properly with an HDMI source (necessitating unplugging and replugging the HDMI cable at the AVR)?

From other threads I've read on various compatibility issues, it seems that Question 1) could be answered "Yes". If so, that's life. I can live with it for now as it is easy enough to unplug and replug the HDMI cable (I did not pay a lot for the player and will simply update it sometime later).

I hope the answer to number 2) is also "Yes", in the sense that residual problems will go away when I move on from the DVD99. That would be preferable to having to change the AVR or get it repaired.

As for number 3), if the answer is "Yes", that is easily solved by simply not turning on the two displays at the same time (I have no real need to do so, it's just happened that way a few times because I have no remote for the Dell monitor and I've sometimes turned on the PJ before turning off the Dell).

I know there are no definitive "one size fits all" answers to these questions. Moreover, these issues are annoying but hardly major in the grand scheme of things. I'm prepared to work around them until such time as I upgrade gear but I would like to understand why these issues are happening (could make it easier for me to live with them).

Thanks.

1) Yes

2) Never heard of that unless noise is being introduced by DVD99. I'd have to say unlikely.

3) Absolutely. Covered many times in this forum. Check under "lowest common denominator". Turning off the display may not stop the handshake. So you would still have a problem.

What types of HDMI cables are you using? They should be "high speed" rated.

For what it is worth your HDMI switcher likely had better equalization of the signal for that distance of cable than the Yamaha. Boosting really doesn't help with HDMI (just boosts the noise).

The DVD-99 problems confuses me. It seems like the Yamaha could not decode the HDMI signal properly. That indicates a possible firmware issue on either the DVD or AVR (more likely location). Make sure both boxes have the latest firmware installed.
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post #3 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess I'll live with the DVD99 incompatibility for now (if that is the problem). The AVR is more important to me than the player as I have alternatives in-house if the problem becomes untenable.

I asked question 2 because of the weird behaviour I experienced regarding MCH audio in "STRAIGHT" mode (as described above) and because the PS3 connection issues always seemed to follow my use of the DVD99 (except in cases of both displays being on at the same time). If you think the DVD99 unlikely as the culprit for other input/source issues, then perhaps the displays are the cause, especially in light of what you responded to question 3.

Oh well--I guess I'll have to live with these issues for now. I don't plan to change my displays anytime soon (though I will likely move to a plasma TV when the bulb goes on my PJ and then I will not need two displays--I use the Dell to prolong bulb life in the projector). From what you've stated, assuming these are compatibility issues rather than an actual faulty HDMI board in the AVR, my troubles should greatly diminish the day I move to one display (or two identical resolution displays?) and move to a replacement for my DVD99.

Have I understood correctly?

Thanks for the reply and I will check out some more threads on this issue.

As for my HDMI cables, they are from various brands and all rated "high speed" (the long ones are from Blue Jeans Cable, the rest a variety of inexpensive cables, not that Blue Jeans were expensive).

I do find it curious that I did not have such problems with the switch box, but it was video only at that point and the DVD99 was not part of the equation.
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post #4 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 12:31 PM
 
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I updated my original response. One thing to check is that you have the latest firmware in the DVD player and AVR. The response you got is not normal.
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post #5 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

I updated my original response. One thing to check is that you have the latest firmware in the DVD player and AVR. The response you got is not normal.

The AVR's firmware is up to date (I did it last week and there is no new firmware available). I don't know about the DVD99. I'll look into that (though it is fairly old, so I don't know if there are any recent firmware updates--don't even know if it is something I can do at home).

You are referring to my odd experience with the STRAIGHT mode and CD playback when you say "The response you got is not normal.", right? Or do you mean the audio silence/static that accompanies the video, on occasion?
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post #6 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ovation View Post


The AVR's firmware is up to date (I did it last week and there is no new firmware available). I don't know about the DVD99. I'll look into that (though it is fairly old, so I don't know if there are any recent firmware updates--don't even know if it is something I can do at home).

You are referring to my odd experience with the STRAIGHT mode and CD playback when you say "The response you got is not normal.", right? Or do you mean the audio silence/static that accompanies the video, on occasion?

Actually both.
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post #7 of 17 Old 02-28-2012, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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They did not seem normal to me either. I was under the impression that HDMI either worked or it didn't (so either audio and video or a blank screen with no sound--never expected static or silence to accompany the video).

It's especially frustrating because when it all works, it sounds better than my old setup. I get a decent room EQ for my speakers (I have separate one for my sub), the power is more than enough for my speakers…

On the other hand, on my old setup, it was "turn it on and play"--no recurring issues like this. Ah well--I still don't understand why HDMI is not using ethernet-like locking connectors and cable (and don't get me started on the whole HDCP thing).

Again, thanks for the help and information. If I hadn't seen your post in a Denon HDMI thread in the AVR forum, I wouldn't have even known to look for this forum.

ETA: There does not appear to be any way to download a firmware update from Cambridge Audio. I have sent support request to find out my options.
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post #8 of 17 Old 02-29-2012, 01:17 AM
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We replaced a 4x2 HDMI Matrix with a dual Output Yamaha AVR for a customer a while back - the system had worked perfectly for Video + 2.0 LPCM to a Panasonic TV, Optoma Projector and HK Hi-Fi amp.

As soon as we introduced the dual Output AVR we hit major problems - if you had HDMI A+B selected on the Output side of the AVR the system completely froze and required that you powered it all Off at the wall before it would fire up again, the Optoma Projector in particular threw a major wobble.

The customer was keen to retain the New Yamaha AVR as he loved how it sounded - through trial and error we found that as long as you had the AVR Output set to HDMI A or HDMI B but not A+B the system behaves as required!

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post #9 of 17 Old 02-29-2012, 04:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I'll try changing the output settings on the A1000. Right now it's set for A+B HDMI.
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post #10 of 17 Old 02-29-2012, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Received a response from Cambridge Audio. There was never a firmware update for the DVD99 and there won't be in the future as it is a discontinued model. Haven't had a chance to try different HDMI output settings yet, but that is next on my list.

Did have another weird experience with the DVD99 last night. Played a DVD-A and while I got audio from it I lost a lot of functionality. Image froze on screen and any function (play, FF, stop, etc.) did not work. Skip worked for a bit but then stopped. Ejecting and retrying disc did not help. Tried a different DVD-A and all was normal. This problem seems more like an authoring issue than an HDMI issue, but I've become a bit gun-shy. Too bad it is discontinued, though, as authoring issues are exactly the kind of thing firmware updates are for.

Ah, the joys of modern technology.

ETA: just did a search re: my oddly behaving DVD-A--it's a known authoring issue that affects a number of players, including Cambridge Audio players. Didn't bother my old Marantz player, though.
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post #11 of 17 Old 03-05-2012, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I've removed the HDMI OUT 1 + 2 setting and now manually choose which HDMI out I want. Since I've been doing this, I've not had any weirdness--either with the DVD99 or more generally.

It's early days yet, but I'm hoping this resolves things. And as for my problematic DVD-A (Santana's Shaman), I decided to simply live with the lossy version via my PS3. And after listening to it on the PS3, I've concluded it is the first MCH music disc I've heard (and I own a few hundred--DVD-As, SACDs, DTS-CDs, DVD concerts) where I simply do not like the MCH mix. On the DVD99, when I was getting audio, it sounded strangely echoey--I chalked that up to more HDMI audio glitches from the DVD99 (Why not? It would have fit in with audio dropouts and static). However, the lossy mix via the PS3 (DTS and DD) had the same echoey effect. Clearly something to do with the mix itself. I ran it as 2 channel via DDPLII Music (which I have tweaked to my taste) and it was a lot better than the discrete MCH mix (first time that's happened to my ears).

Enough digression, I guess.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. I hope everything is now okay as it all sounds great when it works.
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post #12 of 17 Old 03-10-2012, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

We replaced a 4x2 HDMI Matrix with a dual Output Yamaha AVR for a customer a while back - the system had worked perfectly for Video + 2.0 LPCM to a Panasonic TV, Optoma Projector and HK Hi-Fi amp.

As soon as we introduced the dual Output AVR we hit major problems - if you had HDMI A+B selected on the Output side of the AVR the system completely froze and required that you powered it all Off at the wall before it would fire up again, the Optoma Projector in particular threw a major wobble.

The customer was keen to retain the New Yamaha AVR as he loved how it sounded - through trial and error we found that as long as you had the AVR Output set to HDMI A or HDMI B but not A+B the system behaves as required!

Joe

Had a brief moment of weird behaviour yesterday (no signal from the PS3 after having switched to another input and back to the PS3 input, plus a message about HDCP ERR) and I was fuming--I thought I'd solved the issues with your suggestion above. Not wanting to be too hasty, I started going through my settings again and found the culprit. I selected the PS3 input via the SCENE button rather than the AV1 button on the remote. Looking into the SCENE settings for that input I found it was set to select HDMI OUT 1 + 2, thus overriding my use of the HDMI button to select one or the other output individually. I removed that option from the SCENE and all was well.

Though I cannot, as I understand this wonderful world of HDMI interface, state with absolute certainty that all my troubles are related to this HDMI OUT 1 + 2 business, I can state that it appears to have resolved all my troubles. For that I am grateful (actually, I'm grateful for your advice--I'd rather not have the issue in the first place, of course). And I offer my experience as an example that others might follow if they suffer from similar issues.
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post #13 of 17 Old 05-10-2012, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thought my problems were resolved but I'm still having some. I've even tried adding a different blu-ray player with a short cable to get over some of the issues I've been having with my PS3 and its long cable run. Fewer problems but still having some. I think I've established the problem is my computer monitor and its unusual resolution of 1600x1050. If that is indeed the problem, it's disappointing as that monitor has proven quite useful over the years (and I'm not keen on buying another small display--I plan to wait out my bulb on my pj and replace it with a large flat panel that will, I hope, resolve all this once and for all).

I have found one thing that seems to make things less problematic and I'd like to ask if my supposition is reasonable or if it's simply a coincidence that things have worked since I noticed this.

In the past week or so, I've found that turning on the AVR (Yamaha RX-A1000) first, waiting until it has fully activated its input (a few seconds--5 or so), then turning on the display, wait another 5 or so seconds and then turning on the player (Panasonic BD player) last. The waiting in between seems to preclude problems. This, of course, means avoiding any macro via universal remote or pushing all the buttons (all three devices are close to each other) quickly. It also means turning things on in a specific order each time. Works for me, but a pain for others to remember.

Is the waiting possibly making things better or am I out to lunch on that?

Anything connected via component (Apple TV 1st gen, DVR, old DVD player) that is converted to HDMI causes no trouble whatsoever. Of course, this also means that no audio is carried to the AVR via HDMI (means it is the same as my old setup, where no HDMI audio was in play and video HDMI via a matrix box was fine).

Is is possible that a combination of having to carry audio via HDMI combined with the unusual 1600x1050 resolution of my display is causing the AVR to trip up so often?
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post #14 of 17 Old 05-10-2012, 02:44 PM
 
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On the PS3, did you disable deep color? If you look about 2 weeks back, there is a separate append on how to disabled deep color.

The order of start-up has been known to work with older devices. Newer ones seem to have avoided those HDMI pitfalls (at least the ones I've tried).
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post #15 of 17 Old 05-11-2012, 09:19 AM
 
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Ovation, I had forgotten you had responded to my earlier PS3 deep color append - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ps3+deep+color

Sorry I forgot. I can't think of anything else to try right now to help your PS3 issues.

Audio is always carried part of the bitstream, even if it is all null. Remember there isn't a separate audio wire, this is digital data.

However, I know of devices that simply can't handle anything but 1080p, 1080i, 720p and 480p over HDMI. So that definitely could be a problem.
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post #16 of 17 Old 05-11-2012, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

However, I know of devices that simply can't handle anything but 1080p, 1080i, 720p and 480p over HDMI. So that definitely could be a problem.

Would I be correct in assuming that my AVR might well be one such device?
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post #17 of 17 Old 06-22-2012, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe I have finally found a solution (though it still requires my 4X2 matrix box). Instead of putting the box in the path of the PS3 to the AVR in an effort to "boost" the signal of a long cable run (I understand from subsequent posts around here that I wasn't actually boosting the signal, but that is what I thought I was doing at the time), I placed the box between the output of my AVR and the input of my computer monitor with the unusual resolution. Seems to have fixed the problem. My speculative theory is the connection between the AVR and the matrix box appears, to the AVR, as a "normal" resolution device and thus spares me the previous hiccoughs. From the box to the Dell monitor, all seems well (except that I've had to revert to using an HDMI to DVI adapter--as I used to use in my old, pre-Yamaha setup, as the box and the monitor never played nice with a direct HDMI to HDMI connection--another mystery but one I'm not going to worry about too much so long as my new configuration keeps working).
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