Monoprice HDMI extender TIA-568B - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bytebuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Folks,
I have run a couple of cat6 23 AWG cables in the ceiling. Each cable is 50 feet in length
I plan to use this extender with these cables
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=8201&seq=1&format=2#description

I have tested to make sure that the extender works (using a couple of cat5e cables).

Now the cat6 cables I ran weren't terminated. So I terminated them with RJ-45 jacks. Though I didn't use the TIA-568B specification (the product site says that we should though).
Should that matter though as long as both sides are wired the same way
Anyways, with the cat6 run, I see the power and status leds light up (red and blue in color respectively). But I dont get any picture.
Trying to debug this problem.
Any tips. Do I need to get maybe a network tester?
bytebuster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 07:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
HDMI extenders that draw their power from the 5V line of the HDMI cable have a poor track record. You may have to add a power supply at one end or both.

Yes, wire order is important. You are dealing with signals on pairs of wires. Also, proper termination is important. Using connectors designed for solid wire with stranded wire, or vice versa, can lead to problems. And even with the right connectors, sometimes you can get a poor connection.

If you used a pair of shorter cables to test, the problem may not be in the cable. Maximum bit rate is a function of the length of the cable. You might want to force the source to lower resolution to see if you can get a picture. Make sure you are not running DeepColor.

The most trouble free way to run HDMI over Cat 6 with with a HDBaseT based device.
Colm is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 08:11 PM
Senior Member
 
enthuzist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
To add to the above post and to reiterate from the site...
Quote:
Note that these must be CL2 rated for in-wall use and must be wired to the EIA/TIA-568B standard.

Using CL2 for in wall use is a must for code and eliminating issues later. ALWAYS use the requested wiring standard. You are taking the time to line it up, so why not do it right the first time. Did you use a cable tested to test each run after you terminated the cables? Another must to eliminate frustration before you button up the plates. Testers are cheap and can be found at your local Lowe's, Home Depot or Radio Shack or the like.
Quote:
Next you plug the ends of each cable into the backs of the wall plates. Make sure that the wall plate labeled "HDMI® IN" is at the source side and the one labeled "HDMI® OUT" is at the destination end.

Seems simple, but I have seen this issue way too often being overlooked. the HDMI OUT plate should be near your TV/Projector.
Quote:
The Cat5e/6 cables need to be plugged into the appropriate jack on the back of the wallplate, labeled 1 and 2.

Another simple but easily overlooked issue I have found. This is why color coded or properly labeled cables will always be best.
Quote:
Under most circumstances the system will draw all necessary power from the HDMI® cable itself. If you have signal reliability issues, you may need to plug a 5 VDC AC adapter into one or both of the wall plates to provide necessary power. Alternatively, you can hardwire a 5 VDC AC adapter into the back of the remote wall plate (labeled HDMI® OUT), with the positive wire connected to the + and the negative wire connected to the - connection.

I always use the power for 35' and over runs...yes you can go very long distances but you will need to use Fiber Optic cables to do so. Even though it isn't listed, make sure that it passes HDCP signals...strangely I have seen some that will not pass it nor IR if over a certain distance, but will pass video at longer distances.
Quote:
Note: Although this extender will work with Cat5e UTP cables, Monoprice STRONGLY recommends using Cat6 STP cabling for anything longer than minimal distances. Cat6 STP cabling will provide the highest reliability and signal integrity to ensure that your installation is trouble-free under all conditions for years to come.

Due to my professional experience, I highly recommend CAT 5/6 STP for any video extenders. Keeping the signal path as clean as possible always equate to a very happy customer.

Mitsubishi WD-92842, Onkyo HT-S9400THX, Oppo BDP-93, XBOX 360 w/Kinect, XBOX (modded), WD My Book Essential, FiOS Bundle
enthuzist is offline  
post #4 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bytebuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks Colm.
I actually did bump down the o/p resolution on my apple tv to 480p and that made no difference.
Didn't really get your comment regarding dealing with signals on pairs of wires. As long as my color termination is consistent on both ends, things should be fine.
The way I see it, the extender on the source side will send a pair of signals on a pair of wires. As long as these are terminated on the same pins on the other side, we should be fine.
In any case I will rewire the RJ45s using 568B to see if that makes a difference.

The other thing I am trying to research is whether my cable specs are ok.
It is listed as a 23AWG cat6 cable. Looks like an untwisted pair. There is no listing of supported frequencies though. I am hoping these are fine

Will also try and get my hands on some 5V DC outputs to see if that makes a difference. Sigh! This is so painful
bytebuster is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bytebuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks enthuzist. Appreciate the detailed response
Quote:
Using CL2 for in wall use is a must for code and eliminating issues later. ALWAYS use the requested wiring standard. You are taking the time to line it up, so why not do it right the first time. Did you use a cable tested to test each run after you terminated the cables? Another must to eliminate frustration before you button up the plates. Testers are cheap and can be found at your local Lowe's, Home Depot or Radio Shack or the like.
Checked that these are CL2 for in wall use.
Sadly running these 2 cat6 cables was a last minute thing that I hadn't put too much thought into. I had already run a HDMI cable. The cat6+extender solution was meant to be a backup. But I agree. I should have checked these before sealing things up frown.gif
Quote:
Seems simple, but I have seen this issue way too often being overlooked. the HDMI OUT plate should be near your TV/Projector.
This I have verified. Made sure that source goes to HDMI in
Quote:
Another simple but easily overlooked issue I have found. This is why color coded or properly labeled cables will always be best.
Yet another thing I missed. Both cables are of the same color.
Though by connecting a single cable between the extenders and by checking if the power led lights up I am able to at least map the cables
Quote:
I always use the power for 35' and over runs...yes you can go very long distances but you will need to use Fiber Optic cables to do so. Even though it isn't listed, make sure that it passes HDCP signals...strangely I have seen some that will not pass it nor IR if over a certain distance, but will pass video at longer distances.
I will go and get a couple of 5V DC power sources ASAP
But I wonder if the termination is the problem here.
I can see both the LEDs light up (power and status). Maybe the HDCP handshake is failing because of some wires not being terminated correctly.
Any tips on what else I could do to debug this.
Get a patch cable tester?
bytebuster is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 09:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by bytebuster View Post

Didn't really get your comment regarding dealing with signals on pairs of wires. As long as my color termination is consistent on both ends, things should be fine.
The way I see it, the extender on the source side will send a pair of signals on a pair of wires. As long as these are terminated on the same pins on the other side, we should be fine.
The four TMDS pairs used to transmit video and audio use differential signaling over twisted pairs. Any wiring scheme that does not maintain each of these four twisted pairs will increase crosstalk, degrading the signal. By keeping the two wires in the pair close, their fields essentially cancel out and cannot affect other wires. By splitting them up, you allow them to influence other wires. By putting one half of two different signals on a single pair, you are making it even worse. There are other potential down sides as well.

It may or may not matter for the other wires, depending on the design of the extender.
Colm is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 08-04-2012, 09:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by enthuzist View Post

...I highly recommend CAT 5/6 STP for any video extenders. Keeping the signal path as clean as possible always equate to a very happy customer.
All using STP will do is increase capacitance and reduce performance unless it is properly grounded.
Colm is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 08-05-2012, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bytebuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

The four TMDS pairs used to transmit video and audio use differential signaling over twisted pairs. Any wiring scheme that does not maintain each of these four twisted pairs will increase crosstalk, degrading the signal. By keeping the two wires in the pair close, their fields essentially cancel out and cannot affect other wires. By splitting them up, you allow them to influence other wires. By putting one half of two different signals on a single pair, you are making it even worse. There are other potential down sides as well.
It may or may not matter for the other wires, depending on the design of the extender.

Thanks Colm. Let me rewire as per 568B and give it a try
bytebuster is offline  
post #9 of 14 Old 08-05-2012, 07:55 PM
Senior Member
 
enthuzist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

All using STP will do is increase capacitance and reduce performance unless it is properly grounded.

I always properly install components and interconnects and I stress this with all of my employees and project leaders...this is something to stress with DIYers because the importance of grounding everything to a common ground is often not understood. STP does help with performance. I have installed setups in the most environmental interfering locations and was still able to eliminate those factors for a flawless video/audio setup. I have yet to run across any worst setups than Military and Warehouses short of a building across the street from a Radio/TV tower station.

Mitsubishi WD-92842, Onkyo HT-S9400THX, Oppo BDP-93, XBOX 360 w/Kinect, XBOX (modded), WD My Book Essential, FiOS Bundle
enthuzist is offline  
post #10 of 14 Old 08-05-2012, 08:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by enthuzist View Post

I always properly install components and interconnects...
Unfortunately, that isn't the case with most DIYers. They seem to think that Cat 6 cable is an upgrade from HDMI when it is the other way around. Each of four or five pairs (four TMDS pairs plus optional ethernet) in an HDMI cable are shielded, and the whole cable is shielded. The closest equivalent would be Cat 7. Unfortunately most of the extender products don't have grounding 8P8C sockets, and most DIYers have never even heard of a grounding 8P8C plug.
Colm is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 08-06-2012, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bytebuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
An update. I tried a couple of 30 foot cat6 cables between the extenders. Same problem. No signal.
Tried a couple of 15 feet cables and no issues.
Not sure if this is an extender issue or just that an external power source is absolutely necessary.
Another thing I noticed, even with a pair of 6 feet cables between the extenders, the picture on the display has some noise (white sparkly effect or dandruff-like artifacts). Maybe this extender is bad?

Anyways, I plan to instead give the HDBase-T extenders a try. These seem to be more reliable from what I have read
bytebuster is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 08-06-2012, 10:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
More than likely they require external power to work with your gear. Source device only has to provide 55 mA on the 5V line. That has to support the extender, and the original purpose of the 5V line, hot plug detect. Depending on the power supply design of the source device, exceeding that can pull down the voltage on the source and affect how it works as well. Like I said, line powered devices have a poor track record.

I don't think you will have a problem with HDBaseT based devices, as long as the cable is terminated properly. They also use differential signalling and will have the same problems if the pairs are split up. Good news is that you only have to worry about one cable. And HDBaseT has a good track record. Be aware that there are two flavors of HDBaseT: the original full version and a lite version. The former supports the full 10.2 Gbps HDMI bandwidth to 100m. The latter can do 1080p60 at 36 bits up to 70m, and higher bit rates up to 40m.
Colm is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 08-06-2012, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bytebuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks Colm. Really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my posts

I was thinking about going with this one from Monoproce - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2

Also, in the HDBaseT thread, I posted a question regarding how to mount these extenders? Since these extenders do not come with a wall plate version ... I am going to have to figure out a way to mount this extender next to my ceiling mounted projector. Any thoughts? Should I just keep the extender in the ceiling and drop the HDMI cable through a 1 gang outlet that I already have in the ceiling? Although I do have a 2 plug outlet in the ceiling, I wanted to see if there is another more clean mechanism for connecting the extender power adapter

EDIT: Hmm... I noticed that this extender ships with L shaped mounting plates. Still, is there a way to "hide" the adapter?
bytebuster is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 08-07-2012, 11:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
You have a big projector hanging from the ceiling and you are concerned about another little box next to it? IIWY I would just mount it on the ceiling.

FWIW there are HDBaseT wall plates. The ones I have seen fit in a double gang j-box.
Colm is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off