Upgraded to Latest Metallic HDMI Connectors & Noticed Improved Picture and Sound? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 40 Old 09-17-2012, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Hi,
At AVS Science cables are NOT supposed to make a difference but i found in this case maybe they do.
I upgraded from the discount cables (those round ferrite cores on each end):
31xFGyWSfvL._AA160_.jpg

i stumbled upon these with fully metal connectors.

click to enlarge

Curious, i sampled several brands with full metal connector shielding and find these $7 Bluerigger to offer the most noticeable increase in picture and sound fidelity and naturalness:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet/dp/B0061RJSWC/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1347875834&sr=1-1&keywords=bluerigger+3ft

Does anybody know what the heck is going on here? confused.gif
Does anyone want to buy my old cables?
HiFiFun is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 40 Old 09-17-2012, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 6,862
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked: 393
Grounding the shield should reduce the noise level, but if the bits are already getting through undamaged (i.e. no ones converted to zeros or vice-versa), it shouldn't make any difference to what you see. Of course, knowing that you have a higher quality connection can often make a difference in what you perceive.

Taking a picture of what you see in a small region of the screen with the two different cables and doing a numeric comparison between the images would be one way to verify if on-screen values are actually different. You'd have to use a camera which provides an RGB RAW photo format which has more than 8 bits per color channel.

Selden
Selden Ball is online now  
post #3 of 40 Old 09-17-2012, 08:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 242
Glad I use MediaBridge cables wink.gif
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #4 of 40 Old 09-18-2012, 01:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Maybe the ‘metal connector shielding’ decrypts the encrypted video stream, alters it then re-encrypts it just before the signal hits the HDMI chip set within the Sink (TV)!

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #5 of 40 Old 09-18-2012, 04:27 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
As Joe said, not a chance. What you are sending are the 1s and 0s as electrical signals. To make it more difficult, the 1s and 0s are encrypted to keep people from copying them. So if they are changed you get obvious errors, not just slight changes.

The cable would have to change the 1s and 0s in such a manner as to 1) improve the signal and 2) not defeat the copy protection. Just ain't gonna happen.

You would be amazed at how much your brain can perceive things just my knowing it should happen. It's one of the reasons why 3 different people will perceive the same accident 3 different ways.
alk3997 is offline  
post #6 of 40 Old 09-18-2012, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 242
+1
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #7 of 40 Old 09-18-2012, 05:13 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
It would be because you have a more solid connector, vs. having just a cheap plastic type foil shielding. Same concept with why better coax works better than cheap coax. All because of not only shielding, but because it holds up longer, and does not allow interference from other electrical sources that it may be laying against.
gregzoll is offline  
post #8 of 40 Old 09-19-2012, 04:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Murilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,679
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Over my years here, i was told coax is analog, and thus benefits from shielding. Hdmi is digital and either gets their or shows noticeable issues, or no picture at all.
Murilo is offline  
post #9 of 40 Old 09-19-2012, 05:34 AM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Over my years here, i was told coax is analog, and thus benefits from shielding. Hdmi is digital and either gets their or shows noticeable issues, or no picture at all.
Has nothing to do if the signal is digital or analog, it has to do with the sturdiness of the cable, and how it shields both the inside & outside electrical and magnetic interferences.

Coax can be used for both a Digital & analog signal, so again, has nothing to do with the type of the signal, but as I stated above.
gregzoll is offline  
post #10 of 40 Old 09-20-2012, 12:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Has nothing to do if the signal is digital or analog, it has to do with the sturdiness of the cable, and how it shields both the inside & outside electrical and magnetic interferences.

More misinformation. The shield on a coax cable is designed to maintain a ground plane so that the characteristic impedance remains constant over the length of the cable.
SAM64 is offline  
post #11 of 40 Old 09-20-2012, 06:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

More misinformation. The shield on a coax cable is designed to maintain a ground plane so that the characteristic impedance remains constant over the length of the cable.

reference?
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #12 of 40 Old 09-20-2012, 07:11 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Here I thought that we were discussing why the better more sturdy connection end, with the solid metal under the plastic, was better than the cheap with the foil. Guess Sam64 missed that, and jumped to their typical conclusion to troll again on something that has nothing to do with the original discussion.
gregzoll is offline  
post #13 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Guess Sam64 missed that, and jumped to their typical conclusion to troll again on something that has nothing to do with the original discussion.

I didn't miss anything...I still get a kick out of your posts though...you'll post anything...not that any of it makes sense . It's rather sad, but entertaining.
Carry on confusing the masses wink.gif
SAM64 is offline  
post #14 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

reference?

E101, or google.
SAM64 is offline  
post #15 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 09:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dan4081's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

reference?

http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techpprs/CoaxialCablesandApplications.pdf

Revo Ion...XBMC For Windows...Dharma RC2
dan4081 is offline  
post #16 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 10:09 AM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Where does this thread have anything to do with Coaxial cables. Last time I looked, it was asking why there is a difference in the connectors used for HDMI cables. No where is there anything mentioned about coax.

Oh well, leave it to a derail failure caused by the last two, which is typical, especially Sam64 of all.
gregzoll is offline  
post #17 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 10:11 AM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 22,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 360
point of order

challenge the information in the post: never the poster
markrubin is offline  
post #18 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 12:15 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Has nothing to do if the signal is digital or analog, it has to do with the sturdiness of the cable, and how it shields both the inside & outside electrical and magnetic interferences.
Coax can be used for both a Digital & analog signal, so again, has nothing to do with the type of the signal, but as I stated above.

That makes absolutely no sense for the original question.

All signals on coax or HDMI cables are electrical in nature. The difference between analog and digital is that for analog the signal information has nearly-infinite number of acceptable states. A digital cable has only 2 acceptable states for the information it carries (on or off, of if you prefer, 1 and 0). This is simple information theory. If the 1 is transmitted as anything but a 1, then that is an error. There is no 0.5 or 0.75 or any intermediate state.

For the OPs original question, unless you can explain how the interference is changing a 1 to a 0 or a 0 to a 1, then the interference hasn't done a thing with a cable that transmits digital information. The change in connector makes no difference if there are no digital errors over HDMI (getting back to the original question which has nothing to do with coax).
alk3997 is offline  
post #19 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 01:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
No where is there anything mentioned about coax.

You brought it up, greg...and then offered your typical, absolutely incorrect, explanation...it's like you have no understanding of the technology you love to post on.
SAM64 is offline  
post #20 of 40 Old 09-21-2012, 09:12 PM
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
alk3997, never stated that it shields the bitstream, nor keeps the 1's and 0's from getting mixed up. The metal under the "hood" or plastic helps make the connector sturdier, but also helps to shield from emf & RFI, which can cause interference with the bit stream. Keep in mind, there is error correction going on to maintain the stream, but without the shielding, you would actually see the stream fail. That means that you would have macro blocking and pixelation, or no picture at all.

It has been proven in tests through manufacturers, and especially the military, that better connectors stand up to a higher tolerance of less failure rates. Same with cheap vs. better cables. But hey, take it how you want, and over think the process as most tend to do on these forums. I personally take it the better route of not over thinking, or attempting to play EE like some tend to do. Then you have those who assume that they have to be the forum police and stop all that they disagree with, because that is not the way that things should be stated, due to you did not check with them first, to make sure that it was okay to post on a board, that they seem to think that they are the owner of.
gregzoll is offline  
post #21 of 40 Old 09-22-2012, 07:21 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

alk3997, never stated that it shields the bitstream, nor keeps the 1's and 0's from getting mixed up. The metal under the "hood" or plastic helps make the connector sturdier, but also helps to shield from emf & RFI, which can cause interference with the bit stream. Keep in mind, there is error correction going on to maintain the stream, but without the shielding, you would actually see the stream fail. That means that you would have macro blocking and pixelation, or no picture at all.
It has been proven in tests through manufacturers, and especially the military, that better connectors stand up to a higher tolerance of less failure rates. Same with cheap vs. better cables. But hey, take it how you want, and over think the process as most tend to do on these forums. I personally take it the better route of not over thinking, or attempting to play EE like some tend to do. Then you have those who assume that they have to be the forum police and stop all that they disagree with, because that is not the way that things should be stated, due to you did not check with them first, to make sure that it was okay to post on a board, that they seem to think that they are the owner of.

Your first paragraph is about things not concerning the OPs question. Your second paragraph is just about your personal opinion of things I didn't say and seems awfully defensive to me.

How about going back and reading the OPs question? He never said anything about bit errors. Not once. He was talking about improved picture qualtiy and sound fidelity (and naturalism, whatever that is). None of those are bit error issues (such as macroblocking). And, there is no error correction of the video over HDMI. It is encrypted but not error corrected.

If you want, we can talk about how particle radiation affects the amount of bit errors (I did my thesis in this area) but it isn't relevent either to the OPs question. I guess what I'm asking is why do you feel a need to stray from the OPs question?
alk3997 is offline  
post #22 of 40 Old 09-22-2012, 08:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,352
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Does anybody know what the heck is going on here? confused.gif
Does anyone want to buy my old cables?

In *general* most people have no understanding of how powerful psychosomatic (and related) effects can be. I noticed this first within myself when I was working on graphics algorithms. In one example, I "sped up" the smooth interaction and rendering of a complicated page of text and images. I demonstrated before and after executions. There were 4 people in the room that said "wow", and I thought I was convinced I had triumphed. Note: all 4 of us were very seasoned professionals in computer graphics.

I discovered in horror that I had actually had a corrupted makefile (software term) that ended up creating the *exact same program twice*. There was no difference at all. I proved it to myself by running them in a different order, and looking to see if I could see a difference and I could actually convince myself temporarily that one was better than the other (and the reverse).

What happens is this: When you are *looking* for something, you see it. When you see something minutely "nice" you may in some cases step downward the prior image memory----this is normal. It's how you try to determine differences. For instance: When you look at a tree in your yard and try to determine if it has grown you immediate try to conjure an image of it smaller. You may conjure many such images.

This conversation can go on for quite a while. This is merely a snippet of my personal research into this whackjob but funny phenomenon.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #23 of 40 Old 09-22-2012, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 242
Gentlemen. Both of you, IMO, have offered solid advice and help for those that have asked it. Let's step back a bit and just write this off as a civil disagreement and leave it at that before it gets out of hand and the real net police (mods) step in. Otherwise, I will have to send both of you to your rooms without dinner wink.gif
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #24 of 40 Old 09-22-2012, 10:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,352
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Gentlemen. Both of you, IMO, have offered solid advice and help for those that have asked it. Let's step back a bit and just write this off as a civil disagreement and leave it at that before it gets out of hand and the real net police (mods) step in. Otherwise, I will have to send both of you to your rooms without dinner wink.gif

Whom are the two gentlemen you're talking about? I was the one to post right above your post...makes it look like it was me, but I just showed up recently in the middle of all this.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #25 of 40 Old 09-22-2012, 10:52 AM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 22,907
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 360
some posts deleted:and a member asked to leave the thread

please move on


thanks
markrubin is offline  
post #26 of 40 Old 09-22-2012, 11:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Whom are the two gentlemen you're talking about? I was the one to post right above your post...makes it look like it was me, but I just showed up recently in the middle of all this.

My apologies if that seemed to be directed at you. That wasn't my intent. Your post hit the thread before mine. It was directed at two other individuals.
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #27 of 40 Old 09-24-2012, 04:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
I personally take it the better route of not ever thinking, or attempting to play EE like some tend to do.

FTFY, and agreed, you never successfully play the EE card...which is a good thing wink.gif
SAM64 is offline  
post #28 of 40 Old 09-24-2012, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,352
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

My apologies if that seemed to be directed at you. That wasn't my intent. Your post hit the thread before mine. It was directed at two other individuals.

No problem. smile.gif

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #29 of 40 Old 09-27-2012, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

That makes absolutely no sense for the original question.
All signals on coax or HDMI cables are electrical in nature. The difference between analog and digital is that for analog the signal information has nearly-infinite number of acceptable states. A digital cable has only 2 acceptable states for the information it carries (on or off, of if you prefer, 1 and 0). This is simple information theory. If the 1 is transmitted as anything but a 1, then that is an error. There is no 0.5 or 0.75 or any intermediate state.
For the OPs original question, unless you can explain how the interference is changing a 1 to a 0 or a 0 to a 1, then the interference hasn't done a thing with a cable that transmits digital information. The change in connector makes no difference if there are no digital errors over HDMI (getting back to the original question which has nothing to do with coax).

First has anyone splurged to spend the $25 for three cables? In each of my systems (HTPC, Blu-ray 3D player, class D Pioneer and Samsung receivers) all it takes is two 3' cables and one six. For my projector the 6' is replaced by the BlueRigger 35'.
This seems like the most logical and cost effective approach?

Has anyone read any of the Amazon customer reviews? If you did you would read many comments that even ( approximately 20% of novices) noticed an improvement in picture and sound.

Now there are solid engineering reasons why there is a difference, but I'm going to wait to see if anyone here has the confidence in themselves to experiment.
I've picked the best objective post so far, but frankly speaking overall the responses are not impressive.

Move over too, as I've investigated Beldin (no HDMI technology updates in 5 years!) and high-end cable manufactures and they too are clueless.

At least I'm grateful to the Chinese for incorporating a good thing when they see and hear it.

So like who has a good job with $25 disposable income to conduct a scientific experiment?
Who here really desires better picture and sound?
HiFiFun is offline  
post #30 of 40 Old 09-27-2012, 08:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,352
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

All signals on coax or HDMI cables are electrical in nature. The difference between analog and digital is that for analog the signal information has nearly-infinite number of acceptable states. A digital cable has only 2 acceptable states for the information it carries (on or off, of if you prefer, 1 and 0). This is simple information theory. If the 1 is transmitted as anything but a 1, then that is an error. There is no 0.5 or 0.75 or any intermediate state.

Simple "Information Theory"? No, you have this partially misunderstood. You don't transmit a "1" per se ever, you transmit an electrical charge within voltage specifications. Even in the case of pure optical fibre, the light itself is within an [albeit extremely tight] range.

In the simplest case, look at simple TTL: (transistor-transistor logic): A "one" (or "true") is a voltage past a certain point. A "zero" or "false" is a voltage below a certain point. These establish thresholds that all gates must obey. Most signalling is more complicated than that, but even at this simplistic level, it's not the case that if it isn't a "1" then it's not a "1".

Does this matter much for HDMI? This is where, as others will point out, you rely on reviews. As with all cables, it matters only to a degree, and that degree is roughly within the $25 quality range (as far as I can tell from reviewers) of Mediabridge and Monoprice for most applciations. And I'd argue that even THAT is overkill, but I'll trust those manufacturers for now. Anything else is almost certainly either psychosomatic or overkill.

Or in the case of Audioquest's $1099 one meter(!) HDMI cable, absurd overkill.

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
tgm1024 is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off