Do monoprice redmere cables boost the signal for the audio return channel? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I am ready to buy a 30 foot redmere cable from monoprice to replace another cable I bought that won't do CEC or ARC. Because the redmere circuitry makes it a directional cable, and the Audio Return Channel goes the other way I am wondering if the redmere feature has any effect at all on the ARC? Will ARC be boosted/conditioned to improve transmission over a long run?
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post #2 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 02:09 PM
 
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I can find plenty of references that say ARC is supported by Redmere Technology:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10255&cs_id=1025501&p_id=9168&seq=1&format=2

However, I can find none that say whether there is any enhancement done on the return audio signal. I suspect the answer is no because 1) the bandwidth needed for the return signal is relative small compared to the video/audio signal going to the TV therefore the enhancement isn't needed as much for ARC and 2) the business end of the Redmere chip is on the TV end. It restores the signal (rather than amplifying the signal). The equivalent chip would not be available on the source end of the cable.

Remember ARC is limited to the bandwidth of S/PDIF signals. So no TrueHD or DTS-HD. That makes it much easier to send the audio signal back.
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#14
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post #3 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 03:18 PM
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The Redmere site only says it does equalization and skew correction on the TMDS lines. There is really no reason to do anything to the ARC signal. The way ARC is implemented and the limited bit rate of the audio signal ensures a robust connection. The problem is almost certainly not in the cable. All HDMI cables, including those produced before ARC was introduced, support ARC. The problem is almost certainly in how you have configured you equipment or an incompatibility between pieces from different manufacturers.
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post #4 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Remember ARC is limited to the bandwidth of S/PDIF signals. So no TrueHD or DTS-HD. That makes it much easier to send the audio signal back.
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#14

I didn't realize that. Good to know. I still don't know what the real advantage of ARC is unless your tv doesn't have an optical out. What am I missing?
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post #5 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I moved the receiver across the room and used a 3 foot hdmi and everything worked perfectly. With my 30' cable the tv receives just fine but ARC and CEC do not work so i would say my cable almost certainly IS the problem.
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post #6 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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So far, based on this discussion I think buying a new 30' hdmi may be all i need to do. Redmere doesnt seem to do anything to help my situation but It's nice to know that my discount cable is a quality product so i may go that route.

I bet 9 out of 10 people who purchased the same cable as the one I already have would have never known or cared about arc or cec not working. I have never seen any one mention anything about either in an online review.
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post #7 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 04:38 PM
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Which cable would that be?
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post #8 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Which cable would that be?
http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=226216861
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post #9 of 25 Old 12-05-2012, 05:49 PM
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It is hard to say anything about that cable because of a lack of specifications. One warning sign is that it claims to be a 30' high speed cable. If you are going to replace the cable, I would recommend going with a known quantity, at least a known wire gauge. Monoprice is well thought of around here. There are others. A 22-24 AWG cable is usually used at the length you are dealing with. There is no way of telling what it is on the cable you linked to. It looks to me from the picture like it might be smaller wire, but it could just be a real thin sheath. If the wire is smaller, it might be possible that it affects the ARC signal enough at 30' to make it unusable, at least with the combination of electronics you are using.
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post #10 of 25 Old 12-06-2012, 07:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scipper77 View Post

http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku=226216861

I'd certainly be nervous about that cable and ask for their high speed certificate (they should have one). Since we all know that the maximum length of a certified high speed cable is approximately 25 feet (5 feet is not within the "slop"), it would be difficult for them to have a 30 foot High Speed cable. However, if they do that means they have certified it at a laboratory and therefore should have a certificate.

Also this phrase, "Transfer Digital Audio and Video signals at warp speed of 10.2 Gigabits per second," is a warning sign. The only way to get to 10.2 gpbs is to use the maximum bandwidth available on the cable. If you are running at 1080p/60 then you would have a bitrate of 2.78 Gbps. If you enabled deep color then you would have 12 bits per pel instead of 8 bits, so your bitrate would be 4.17 Gbps. Now that's just video, so audio and other data goes across the HDMI cable as well. But, the point of all this is that the content (and chipset) chooses the bitrate and not the cable. So to imply that because you have this cable, you can transfer at 10.2 Gbps is, at best, misleading.

You can think of the cable as a water pipe. Just because you make the pipe bigger doesn't mean more water will flow - the water source would also have to increase the overall water rate.

In the end, I suspect if you used a known good HDMI cable, you would not have had the problems you had and who knows what pins were actually connected with the cable you used.
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post #11 of 25 Old 12-06-2012, 07:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I didn't realize that. Good to know. I still don't know what the real advantage of ARC is unless your tv doesn't have an optical out. What am I missing?

I think you got it. It's for watching OTA or cable using your TV's tuner and wanting the sound to come out the speakers connected to the AVR. A S/PDIF connection does the exact same thing (assuming the TV has a S/PDIF output).
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post #12 of 25 Old 12-06-2012, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I didn't realize that. Good to know. I still don't know what the real advantage of ARC is unless your tv doesn't have an optical out. What am I missing?

In my case ARC and CEC seem to be married to each other. I need some sort of audio return to run apps like netflix that are on my tv. I want the CEC function working so my onkyo remote app can control my tv like it does for my bluray player. Right now I have 4 remotes plus a smart phone next to me. Ideally I will have just a smart phone or just my Onkyo remote control everything.

I was comfortable risking $13 on the first cable and I lost. The monoprice cable at over $40 needs to work. Worth every penny if it works but more than I am willing to lose if it doesn't.

In any event this site is a great resource for anyone with the patience to learn about the nitty gritty of modern technology. I'd like to thank every one who spent there time helping me out here.
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post #13 of 25 Old 12-06-2012, 09:39 AM
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^^^ that's one of the reasons that I'm not a big fan of smart tv's, especially if you have to use ARC/CEC. Give me an optical cable, an external STB like a Roku or AppleTV2, a Harmony remote, and I'm a happy camper wink.gif
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post #14 of 25 Old 12-06-2012, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scipper77 View Post

I want the CEC function working so my onkyo remote app can control my tv like it does for my bluray player.
Unfortunately, the only way to make sure CEC works is to use equipment from a single vendor. Otherwise, you are likely to wind up with something less than the full functionality you are looking for. The CE companies really dropped the ball on this one. Most people who want the capability in a mixed environment just use programmable remotes, with or without and IR or RF extender.

One more thing about ARC. At 30' you might want to consider using a HDMI cable with ethernet. The ethernet and ARC signals share the same wires, and the changes made to the cable to support ethernet are beneficial to the ARC signal as well.

BTW if the cable change fixes your problem, the origial cable still may not be the cuplrit. It could be the electronics at either end. But it is really a moot point if it fixes your problems, and the only way to tell for sure would require tens of thousands of dollars of test equipment.
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post #15 of 25 Old 12-07-2012, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Unfortunately, the only way to make sure CEC works is to use equipment from a single vendor. Otherwise, you are likely to wind up with something less than the full functionality you are looking for.

All i really need the receiver to do is turn the tv on and off from the remote app. Volume is through reciever, channel control through cable box.
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post #16 of 25 Old 12-11-2012, 09:17 PM
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If that cable uses this Redmere technology, then it does support ARC. http://www.redmere.com/business/pre1692.php

Not sure if ARC is boosted or not but let me know if your cables work. I'm buying similar cables.
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post #17 of 25 Old 12-12-2012, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Donat76 View Post

If that cable uses this Redmere technology, then it does support ARC. http://www.redmere.com/business/pre1692.php
Not sure if ARC is boosted or not but let me know if your cables work. I'm buying similar cables.

I'd love to tell you if the cable work for me but it will be a little while. I have been using the Netflix and Youtube apps on my bluray player as a wrokaround for the lack of ARC. Because I have another means of receiving surround sound with my apps, the $45 or so for the redmere cables will be better spent on other things like christmas presents or the in ceiling speakers I want to convert my 5.1 system to a 7.1

If anyone has ever used the ARC feature with a redmere cable of 30' or longer please post here!! It seems that I'm not the only one hungry for a success story on this topic.
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post #18 of 25 Old 12-12-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scipper77 View Post

In my case ARC and CEC seem to be married to each other. I need some sort of audio return to run apps like netflix that are on my tv. I want the CEC function working so my onkyo remote app can control my tv like it does for my bluray player. Right now I have 4 remotes plus a smart phone next to me. Ideally I will have just a smart phone or just my Onkyo remote control everything.
I was comfortable risking $13 on the first cable and I lost. The monoprice cable at over $40 needs to work. Worth every penny if it works but more than I am willing to lose if it doesn't.
In any event this site is a great resource for anyone with the patience to learn about the nitty gritty of modern technology. I'd like to thank every one who spent there time helping me out here.

From what I understand, their customer service and return policy are both top shelf so it's not like you would have to eat it if it didn't work. As long as you can potentially be without the $$ for a short period, there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

We are here to help you. Please help us to help you. If you provide incomplete information, at best, we can give you an incomplete response.
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post #19 of 25 Old 12-24-2012, 07:39 AM
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i am using a 10' redmere cable on my brand new panasonic GT50 from my brand new Pioneer SC-1222k and cannot seem to get the ARC to work. it's not that big of a deal because i have a STB and a Roku....but there IS a youtube app on the TV i would like to use. As of now i cannot get the sound to work with this cable. the Viera link youtube app is really neat. better than the damn PC in my mind.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10255&cs_id=1025503&p_id=9428&seq=1&format=2

i will try a different HDMI cable later today.
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post #20 of 25 Old 12-24-2012, 07:51 AM
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I got ARC to work with the Panasonic VT50 YouTube app just fine, using a Redmere 30-foot cable. There is one specific HDMI output of the Panasonics that is ARC-enabled. I had it connected to my Oppo BDP-103 since my AV receiver doesn't support ARC. I had to switch the input on the Oppo to indicate ARC, and after a moment it synced up and I could hear the audio.

Steve
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post #21 of 25 Old 12-24-2012, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 
Also this phrase, "Transfer Digital Audio and Video signals at warp speed of 10.2 Gigabits per second," is a warning sign. The only way to get to 10.2 gpbs is to use the maximum bandwidth available on the cable. So to imply that because you have this cable, you can transfer at 10.2 Gbps is, at best, misleading.
It's not dishonest. With the error-correction included, all high-speed certified HDMI cables transmit about 10 Gbps. (I don't have the exact number here on my smartphone). True, such equipment doesn't exist in the CE industry yet, but if its a certified cable, it can do that.
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post #22 of 25 Old 12-25-2012, 05:45 PM
 
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As most of us know, there is no video or audio error correction with HDMI. Please check facts before posting.

You also missed my point, which was 2 weeks, 5 days ago. The point was that the cable doesn't control the speed of the transmission. The chips in the source establish the speed of the transmission. The cable does not. Therefore the advertisement is misleading. Again, understanding how things work is important in this forum.
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post #23 of 25 Old 12-25-2012, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

As most of us know, there is no video or audio error correction with HDMI. Please check facts before posting.
You also missed my point, which was 2 weeks, 5 days ago. The point was that the cable doesn't control the speed of the transmission. The chips in the source establish the speed of the transmission. The cable does not. Therefore the advertisement is misleading. Again, understanding how things work is important in this forum.

There is error correction built into the digital signal. The trouble is that if the errors are bad enough that the ECC can't correct them, there is no way to request a retransmission.
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post #24 of 25 Old 12-25-2012, 08:50 PM
 
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Really? What is your sources for this? Mine are:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/dvihdmicomponent.htm

"Second, it is a flawed assumption to suppose that digital signal handling is always error-free. HDMI signals aren't subject to error correction; once information is lost, it's lost for good. That is not normally a consideration with well-made HDMI cable over short distances, but can easily become a factor at distance."

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/whats-the-matter-with-hdmi

"A packet that doesn't arrive on a computer network connection can be re-sent; an HDMI or DVI signal is a real-time, one-way stream of pixels that doesn't stop, doesn't error-check, and doesn't repair its mistakes--it just runs and runs, regardless of what's happening at the other end of the signal chain."

http://www.avforums.com/forums/tvs/804190-do-hdmi-dvi-d-signals-have-parity-bits.html

"There is TERC4 coding used at source , which is error reduction coding , intended to reduce the likelihood of errors , but this is not error correction per se. There are some ECC codes in the Data but as there is no facility for re-transmission these are merely a flag for bad data and are not used for correction as such."


So there is no correction done of the audio or video data, and therefore there are no error correction bits. I'm sure you know that when HDMI came out the data rate was pushing the state of the art without error correction. The required use of error correction would have killed the format since many HDMI chipsets overheated without error correction.

I am interested if you have sources that state otherwise.
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post #25 of 25 Old 12-25-2012, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donat76 View Post

There is error correction built into the digital signal.
Yes, there are error correction codes built into HDMI for the data island packets, but not for video. See the HDMI 1.3 specification for details. It hasn't change in 1.4 If a bit flips in the video data, you just get the wrong color. There is no way to fix even a single bit error.
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