HDMI "handshake" issiue? Please help - AVS Forum

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HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

EpicVegas's Avatar EpicVegas
11:04 AM Liked: 10
post #1 of 18
12-27-2012 | Posts: 81
Joined: Oct 2011
So I have my new home theater built but like most new builds, I'm having a few issues.
I'm going to try and see if I'm having a HDMI issues before I start gutting any components.

First I'll talk about the HDMI cables I'm using in my runs.
All the HDMI cables are "The Newest model" Cheetah Mounts High Speed 3D compatible HDMI Cable with Ethernet and Audio Return.
I'm using the 3D HDMI's because my HT Projector is a Epson 3010e 3D projector. That is 1080p 3D compatible
The other componets in my setup is a 4x4 Matrix HDMI® Switch & Splitter over CAT5e/CAT6 Cable w/ Remote - Extend Upto 131ft That is also 3D 1080p.
I also have a Denon AVR-1612 5.1 Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver "HDMI 1.4a 4In/1Out 3D Ready"
My HTPC & PS3 also can output in 3D.

The issues..

When switching PS3 to HTPC the video switches fine but audio changes to stereo LR from 5.1 to the AVR.
Only after rebooting the HTPC or changing the resolution back and fourth to 1080p will the 5.1 audio re engage with the AVR.

When running the PS3 through the same setup the screen will cut to black anywhere from a few seconds to a few mins. Audio still plays though the AVR though.

Here is how my system is networked:

HTPC, PS3 > 3ft HDMI > 4X4 HDMI Matrix > TMDS & DOC 15ft Cat5e > HDMI splitter/extender > 6ft HDMI > Denon AVR > 35ft HDMI > Epson 3010e Projector
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
01:22 PM Liked: 89
post #2 of 18
12-27-2012 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Why do you have a matrix spitter included? Is it just for distance or do you have another display connected in addition to the projector? Also there is no such thing as a 35' passive high speed cable. Those max out at 25'.

One thing to try is to disconnect the projector HDMI cable and see if the Denon reacts more the way you are expecting to audio-wise.
EpicVegas's Avatar EpicVegas
02:01 PM Liked: 10
post #3 of 18
12-27-2012 | Posts: 81
Joined: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Why do you have a matrix spitter included? Is it just for distance or do you have another display connected in addition to the projector? Also there is no such thing as a 35' passive high speed cable. Those max out at 25'.

Isn't this a 35' passive high speed cable?

If not how would you recommend I get from my AVR to my Projector? its a 30' cable run....

As far as the splitter I have the projector, office, master bedroom & living room that will all be in the mix. Currently its just the office & projector displays being feed. The audio issue is most likely from the office monitor being only stereo.
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
02:08 PM Liked: 89
post #4 of 18
12-27-2012 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
It is at a shorter distance (say 25' or less). Many manufacturers incorrectly label their cables as high speed certified, even though the certification was for a shorter distance. When in doubt, ask the manufacturer for their certification certificate. Check it to see the length of the cable that was certified.

However, remember if you attach anything to your splitter that is stereo (such as the TVs), then the source devices will only send stereo. So, it may not be the cable.

As to how I would do this, that answer has changed over the years. Now I would run a 35' Redmere active HDMI cable. Before I would have said to get the lowest gauge 35' standard speed HDMI cable you could find. High speed just means you can run at the maximum bitrate that HDMI uses or foresees. Standard speed means it is certified for at least 1080i/720p but can do somewhere up to high speed. Where it stops, depends upon the cable. That is why it is very smart you are testing before installation. What I think you have now is a 35' standard speed cable.
Joe Fernand's Avatar Joe Fernand
02:49 PM Liked: 64
post #5 of 18
12-27-2012 | Posts: 1,197
Joined: Oct 2001
Probably need to see a full schematic to fully understand what goes where and what you are hoping to achieve!

Unless all of your end points support 3D and HD audio you can run into problems!

Often its simpler to run Video + Stereo audio via HDMI to the ‘Whole House’ Matrix and use Optical or Coaxial for DD/DTS 5.1 to an AVR collocated with the Source kit!

PC's can be a real hassle if they go to sleep when you switch away from them – often you will need to install an EDID Grabber between the PC and the Switch/Matrix/DA to ensure the PC stays awake and stays locked to the signal format you want it to Output.

3D ‘cables’ – that’s just marketing BS, up to 8m cables can be High Speed (recommended for 3D) anything longer that is ‘passive’ is Standard and you would have to try hard to find one that won’t support 3D!

http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/3d.aspx

Joe
Mr.G's Avatar Mr.G
08:50 AM Liked: 121
post #6 of 18
12-28-2012 | Posts: 3,567
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

High speed just means you can run at the maximum bitrate that HDMI uses or foresees. Standard speed means it is certified for at least 1080i/720p but can do somewhere up to high speed. Where it stops, depends upon the cable. That is why it is very smart you are testing before installation. What I think you have now is a 35' standard speed cable.

According to the specs on this cable it is a version 1.4 cable and supports transfer rates of up to 340Mhz or 10.2gbps...making it a High Speed cable with Ethernet.
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
09:16 AM Liked: 89
post #7 of 18
12-28-2012 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Yep. Sure does. But it can't be - those don't exist.

Also remember there are no such things as 1.4 cables or 3D cables, just high speed and standard speed. The HDMI Org owns the patents, copyrights, trademarks on HDMI and here is their take on how cable must (not should, but must) be named:

http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx

So, basically what I think you have is a cable that at shorter lengths is a high speed cable and may (or may not) have been certified as High Speed. The longer length cable is not a high speed cable (because those stop at just past 25' for passive HDMI cables) but someone continued to label it as high speed even though it wasn't. When in doubt ask the manufacturer for their ceritification information. I would not be surprised to find that what they certified was to a shorter length.

Unfortunately as the cable gets longer these high speed square waves stop being square and become rounded instead. That prevents the receive end of the signal from being able to reliably determine a 1 or a 0. This results in bit errors and no picture or sparkles or blocks of color or lines or a few other obvious effects. The number of bit errors depends upon the bandwidth (and conversely the bitrate) of the signal. The lower the bandwidth, the better the chance of no errors. What the High Speed certification does is provides you a cable model that has been shown to have zero bit errors at the highest speeds HDMI has or plans (right now). Of course, this assumes the cable has been properly marked.

BTW, a likely fix to your PS3 problem would be to disable Deep Color. See this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1401078/some-ps3-hdmi-difficulties-explained
Joe Fernand's Avatar Joe Fernand
02:22 PM Liked: 64
post #8 of 18
12-28-2012 | Posts: 1,197
Joined: Oct 2001
I’d wager the only bit the vendor spent time on was choosing the ‘unique’ colour scheme and ensuring the wee logo badge was OK – it’s a bog standard cable we get offered for around 1 USD per metre on a daily basis from one of many HDMI cable assemble plants.

Joe
EpicVegas's Avatar EpicVegas
09:05 PM Liked: 10
post #9 of 18
12-28-2012 | Posts: 81
Joined: Oct 2011
So If I need to run 30' of high speed hdmi from my 3d AVR to my 3d projector I'm screwed?
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
08:28 AM Liked: 89
post #10 of 18
12-29-2012 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Yes.

...or you could read the other threads that discuss what to do about longer distances (Redmere, thick standard speed cables, cat 6 conversion, etc). There is a lot of good information in the thread right (currently) below this one.
Mr.G's Avatar Mr.G
08:42 AM Liked: 121
post #11 of 18
12-29-2012 | Posts: 3,567
Joined: Jan 2007
alk3997, I am aware of the 25 foot limitation for cables deemed to be high speed and about cable certification.

I was intrigued enough in this generic brand (even though it has a company name) to order one for testing, $15 with free Prime shipping. I don't need it since I use Blue Jeans (Belden) HDMI cables, just curious about the construction quality.
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
08:57 AM Liked: 89
post #12 of 18
12-29-2012 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Sorry. I made a mistake. My response was directed at EpicVegas, not you for asking if he is "screwed" going greater than 25'. I should have quoted what I was responding to. My bad - again sorry.
EpicVegas's Avatar EpicVegas
10:13 AM Liked: 10
post #13 of 18
12-29-2012 | Posts: 81
Joined: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Yes.
...or you could read the other threads that discuss what to do about longer distances (Redmere, thick standard speed cables, cat 6 conversion, etc). There is a lot of good information in the thread right (currently) below this one.

Would a 30' Redmere HDMI cable be a likely fix then?
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
03:40 PM Liked: 89
post #14 of 18
12-29-2012 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Yes, that is certainly a good method.
EpicVegas's Avatar EpicVegas
01:42 PM Liked: 10
post #15 of 18
01-07-2013 | Posts: 81
Joined: Oct 2011
Tested with a 30' redmere hdmi from mono price & still have same issue. Going to try a new matrix then AVR this week.
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
02:40 PM Liked: 89
post #16 of 18
01-07-2013 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Went back and looked at your first append. You started talking about cables and we never got back to the original question. What happens when you disconnect the HDMI cable from the Denon to the projector? Do you still get 5.1 changing to stereo? That's more likely to be an EDID or firmware issue than it is a cable issue.
EpicVegas's Avatar EpicVegas
08:47 AM Liked: 10
post #17 of 18
01-26-2013 | Posts: 81
Joined: Oct 2011
Sorry for the long waited update but I resolved the handshake issiue with a new HDMI switcher.

http://www.amazon.com/ViewHD-Prosumer-Matrix-Jacket-Construction/dp/B007YNFO2U
alk3997's Avatar alk3997
10:26 AM Liked: 89
post #18 of 18
01-26-2013 | Posts: 3,722
Joined: Jan 2004
Glad that worked out! Sounds like we should list the original problem as a true firmware/ handshaking issue.
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