audio or video just not at the same time - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 01-13-2013, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi


I do not know if you can assist but here it is.
I have a Marantz AV 8003 pre amp processor.
It has two HDMI outputs.
I have one output connected to my Darbee processor then to the Gefen toolbox 1 to 4 HDMI splitter.
Then out to the 4 displays.

The video is no problem but audio is.
Under the heading HDMI Audio in the av 8003 user manual on page 38 online or 35 on the text version,

HDMI AUDIO:
This setting determines whether to play back audio
input to the HDMI jacks through the unit or output it
through the unit to a TV or projector.

ENABLE: The audio input to the HDMI jacks
can be played back by this unit.
In such case, audio signals are not
output to the TV or projector.

THROUGH: The audio input to the HDMI jacks is
not output from the speaker terminals
of the unit. Audio data is output
directly to the TV or projector. This
setting is used to listen to audio on a
multi channel TV, etc

The problem here is that enable allows audio and video to secondary sets.
Video only to the primary display. I have connected more tv's and under this scenario some secondary tv's have audio video some do not?!?

Through provides audio and video to the primary display and only video to the secondary displays.

Of course I would like audio and video on all sets without making any further setting adjustments.
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post #2 of 27 Old 01-13-2013, 02:04 PM
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you are not very clear on what you mean by primary versus secondary sets??? Anyways, the settings for the avr for output hdmi are set for each output independently so if you want the same thing (ie. video and audio out on both outputs), you need to set that on both outputs. Past that, you need to clarify what you mean by primary and secondary.
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post #3 of 27 Old 01-13-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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the main display is a projector, no speakers. Sound is output from the Marantz av8003.
The secondary sets are integrated televisions with Incorporated speakers.

I just attached another secondary set,(three in total) and now the first secondary set will not play audio even with the av 8003 in through unless the second set is taken out of the chain.
A mystery for sure.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-13-2013, 02:40 PM
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ok... but now you need to be more specific about the signal path for each set. Are all of them attached to the giffen splitter??? or is one attached to the other output of the marantz???
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post #5 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I now have video and sound on my secondary tv's or video and sound on the primary by selecting the enable or through setting on the 8003.
I am wondering if I change the delivery method of audio input from cable box to av8003 from hdmi to coaxial or optical might that do the trick in allowing all displays to receive sound and video at the same time?

The signal path is Cable box Blu ray out into Marantz via HDMI.
Out of Marantz HDMI out into Darbee.
Out of Darbee into Gefen HDMI input

All displays then exit the toolbox via HDMI.
HDMI #1 being reserved for the main display as only that output allows 3D pass-through.

I have to set the toolbox to 2ch to receive audio on the secondary sets.
I have not investigated whether that will alter multi channel output from the blu ray player.
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post #6 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 06:51 AM
 
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First, let's level set the discussion. HDMI does not use a separate line for audio and a separate line for video. The bitstream for audio is contained within the overall bitstream of data. The same with video. So you really can't have "no audio" in the stream. It may be null data but something must fill the data range where audio should be.

Second, if the Marantz is like the Denon (same company), the selection is between Amp assigned audio and TV assigned audio. There's a big difference between that and what you wrote. What "assigned" does is to geneate audio based on the destination (sink or AVR) device. So, if you select Amp then you get multichannel and if you select TV you get strereo (for the most part). There are very few TVs that can accept multichannel and therefore if you select amp assigned, you'll send up getting audio that the TV cannot understand.

If you want to run a S/PDIF digital audio (coax or optical) all the way to your TV and your TV has a digital audio input, then that would be a valid method of getting audio to your TV all of the time. But, you have to make sure that from source to sink the audio will always be available over S/PDIF. You have to also make sure that you only send a S/PDIF signal that the TV understands (likely stereo). I forget on the Marantz but most AVRs do not take the HDMI audio and then send the core audio over S/PDIF. It must be a separate S/PDIF line running into the receiver.

Really what you need is a receiver with HDMI passthru that would allow the HDMI signal to be configured for TV when the AVR is in standby (off). There are also HDMI matrix switchers and other dedicated HDMI boxes that will generate S/PDIF audio from the HDMI audio output. Finally, some of the newest AVRs include two independent HDMI outputs. However that means the same source cannot be used for both outputs since each source can only generate one audio and one video signal at any time.
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post #7 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 07:22 AM
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Thanks for the improved clarity. As Andy has replied, there are a lot of things going on here. Not knowing a lot about the "tool box" (or other things for that matter), how are you adding your "sinks" (ie. sets)... is everything turned off and then plugged up or is everything running and you are plugging into active units? I suspect that you might be falling into the "changing things on the fly trap" trap... :-). You might want to unplug (pull power on everything).... connect all your hdmi cabling, etc... Then power up your sinks, then power up tool box, then power up receiver and darby ... I think that is the valid order. I hope and suspect that things will be different.... of course, in front of this, make sure that the options in the marantz and tool box are set the way you want / think they should be. That's my guess of your best option.... the guess is based on the fact that you appear to be able to "toggle" things in a "strange fashion".... this seems to indicate that perhaps the operating systems are taking "on the fly" changes and just "flipping" them as opposed to "read, digest, if its a change, take an action, if not leave things alone" type logic..... :-)
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post #8 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 08:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post

Thanks for the improved clarity. As Andy has replied, there are a lot of things going on here. Not knowing a lot about the "tool box" (or other things for that matter), how are you adding your "sinks" (ie. sets)... is everything turned off and then plugged up or is everything running and you are plugging into active units? I suspect that you might be falling into the "changing things on the fly trap" trap... :-). You might want to unplug (pull power on everything).... connect all your hdmi cabling, etc... Then power up your sinks, then power up tool box, then power up receiver and darby ... I think that is the valid order. I hope and suspect that things will be different.... of course, in front of this, make sure that the options in the marantz and tool box are set the way you want / think they should be. That's my guess of your best option.... the guess is based on the fact that you appear to be able to "toggle" things in a "strange fashion".... this seems to indicate that perhaps the operating systems are taking "on the fly" changes and just "flipping" them as opposed to "read, digest, if its a change, take an action, if not leave things alone" type logic..... :-)

Your point about the tool box is a good one. I've seen "tool boxes" that change the EDID in an attempt to force a particular configuration. They are only partially effective since, if you try this, one (or more) of the sinks usually end up with incompatible video or incompatible audio. It all goes back to only having one video and one audio stream at any given time.

Unfortunately even an AVR that would take the multichannel input and downconvert to stereo audio would be useless since it would have to be powered-on all of the time. If the AVR is already on, why bother using the TV speakers (unless in another zone)?

I'm curious, too, about what "tool box" is being used here.
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post #9 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies but at this point but its not really helping here.
The tool box is made by Gefen it is a HDMI splitter model GTB-HDFST-144
Look it up, yes you can change EDID and audio etc.

The issue here is I now can have either all secondary tv's,(those with integrated sound) working by toggleing to HDMI through.
Or can have the main display produce sound and video through the Marantz by toggling enable to receive multichannel audio.

I have to set the toolbox to 2ch to receive audio on the secondary sets.
I have not investigated whether that will alter multi channel output from the blu ray player.
It does not seem to have altered multi channel playback via the cable box when enable is selected.

What I want is no toggle, no selection just audio and video to all displays.
But I am getting closer to that goal all the time.
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post #10 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 12:14 PM
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Think you are confusing folk when referring to the ‘main display sound’ – you mean the AVR!

The simplest thing to say here is ‘no it won’t work the way you want it to work!.

What are the Source devices you wish to use as ‘whole house’ sources?

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post #11 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Think you are confusing folk when referring to the ‘main display sound’ – you mean the AVR!

The simplest thing to say here is ‘no it won’t work the way you want it to work!.

What are the Source devices you wish to use as ‘whole house’ sources?

Joe



the main display is a projector, no speakers. Sound is output from the Marantz av8003. Yes an AVR
The secondary sets are integrated televisions with Incorporated speakers.
The whole house sources are the network player via the marantz AVR, and the HD cablebox.
Maybe at some point if I put an ir repeater on the blu ray player that as well.

As I was saying I now have it working in an either or situation but would like it all on, all the time.
I think someone was on to something when they said there should be a tv through that could be used when the marantz is off just to route the HDMI to the multiple tv's.

I will shut down the marantz with the hdmi selector on the marantz set to through and see if the picture remains on the tvs.
That would solve one issue anyway. The issue of leaving everything on all the time just for routing purposes.
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post #12 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
I will shut down the marantz with the hdmi selector on the marantz set to through and see if the picture remains on the tvs.
That would solve one issue anyway. The issue of leaving everything on all the time just for routing purposes.

Nope, if the Marantz is not on no picture. So much for through setting being actually through.
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post #13 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 04:01 PM
 
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Unfortunately HDMI doesn't work the way you want it to. Remember only one audio and one video stream at a single time. So, if your source sends multichannel, then it cannot send stereo as well. Most TVs (even projectors with no speakers) indicate that they are stereo sinks. So, if they receive multichannel audio they don't know what to do with it. If the source sends stereo then the TVs can understand the audio but you (obviously) don't get multichannel.

Some TVs will indicate they can receiver Dolby Digital signals. Then Dolby Digital 5.1 can be sent to all devices.

When you are looking at this, remember only one type of audio signal at any time in the cable and the source generates the audio.
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post #14 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Well now it does not work at all.
It just blinks on and off in less than one second intervals.
No matter the configuration.
I think a service call to the cable company is in order again.

Or are you saying no splitter can be utilized with HDMI?

Odd reputable companies would sell them.
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post #15 of 27 Old 01-14-2013, 09:22 PM
 
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No. I certainly didn't say that. Odd that you didn't understand that.

Let me simplify. Only one audio stream and one video stream can come from any source at any time. How many times it gets split after that is irrelevent. It's just you are stuck with one audio stream going to as many sinks as you would like with splitters. You can't have multichannel *and* stereo going at the same time.

And, you can't combine sources at the same time. One audio and one video stream at any time only.

Sounds like a full power off (unplug from AC power) / wait 5 seconds / power on is in order for all components (sources and sinks).
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post #16 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I did the power reset and the cable company reset of the cable box with no success.
They are attending tomorrow.

I can only get the flash on and off business now.

The blu ray player connected in the same fashion has no issues however.
Might be the cable box.

The only way to see Darbee right now on my projector is to route HDMI directly from the cable box through Darbee to projector.
This bypasses the Marantz and splitters.

No cigar as no sound either in this configuration.
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post #17 of 27 Old 01-15-2013, 11:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2000 View Post

I did the power reset and the cable company reset of the cable box with no success.
They are attending tomorrow.

I can only get the flash on and off business now.

The blu ray player connected in the same fashion has no issues however.
Might be the cable box.

The only way to see Darbee right now on my projector is to route HDMI directly from the cable box through Darbee to projector.
This bypasses the Marantz and splitters.

No cigar as no sound either in this configuration.

Now you have me confused. You said the cable box is no longer working but the only way to see the Darbee is using the cable box?

The 8003 is a good unit and has (as you know) four HDMI inputs and two HDMI outputs. What happens if you just use the two outputs (no splitter or Darbee) to two TVs? What happens if you then add just the Darbee between the Marantz and one TV/projector? What happens if you don't use the Darbee but use the Marantz and the splitter?

Maybe if you could summarize those conditions we all might understand your setup better. I'm also trying to see how much of an effect the splitter is having on the EDIDs. You also mentioned "splitters" earlier. Do you have multiple splitters (with the exception of the Marantz preprocessor) in the system or just the one Gefen?

If you get the typical cable company repair guy, you're going to cause his/her head to spin (with smoke coming out) when they see your setup.
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post #18 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 01:59 AM
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I would 'split' the HDMI Out signal of the Whole House sources before they get to the AVR and unless you are willing to replace all of the 'secondary' TV's with TV's which support 5.1/7.1 via HDMI (look for SRS TrueSurround HD) set the Sources to Video + 2.0 audio plus use Optical or Coaxial from those Sources into the AVR for DD/DTS in the Main Zone.

Trying to split, process (and potentially split again) the Output of the AVR and hope your kit will all auto switch between 2.0 and 5.1 via HDMI depending on the 'state' of the AVR is a pipe dream.

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post #19 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Now you have me confused. You said the cable box is no longer working but the only way to see the Darbee is using the cable box?

The 8003 is a good unit and has (as you know) four HDMI inputs and two HDMI outputs. What happens if you just use the two outputs (no splitter or Darbee) to two TVs? What happens if you then add just the Darbee between the Marantz and one TV/projector? What happens if you don't use the Darbee but use the Marantz and the splitter?

Maybe if you could summarize those conditions we all might understand your setup better. I'm also trying to see how much of an effect the splitter is having on the EDIDs. You also mentioned "splitters" earlier. Do you have multiple splitters (with the exception of the Marantz preprocessor) in the system or just the one Gefen?

Sorry, I am getting confused as well.
The cable box is no longer working when routed via HDMI through the Marantz or splitter,(it just flashes on and off). It is now connected straight HDMI from cable box to projector.

What happens if you just use the two outputs (no splitter or Darbee) to two TVs
The HDMI outputs on the av8003 are not on all the time there is a switch that can toggle between output one and two. That would have been a great idea, already thought of though.

What happens if you don't use the Darbee but use the Marantz and the splitter?
If I use the splitter or the switching within the Marantz I get a flashing screen with the cable box connected via HDMI.
No issues however using the Blu ray player in these same configurations So maybe the box, I hope this will be solved today, that portion anyway.

Do you have multiple splitters (with the exception of the Marantz preprocessor) in the system or just the one Gefen?
Two splitters, the Gefen toolbox and the HDMI switching in the Marantz.

With the assistance of Marantz tech line I got the HDMI signal to the projector.
Audio is now routed via coaxial instead of HDMI to the Marantz , "through"was chosen for HDMI audio in the av8003 menus so that should take care of the TV audio issues in relation to selecting 2ch or multi on the Gefen.
Provided of course that I can get the cable box to accept a split.

The stickler is well first is the cable box defective #1, But can I route the Blu ray player audio in the same manner as the projector?
Picture via HDMI and sound via Coax.
I do not think so as I think that HD audio must output via HDMI, maybe I am wrong though and will check this out after wards.

If not there is always the analog outputs on the player as a last resort I suppose.
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post #20 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 12:42 PM
 
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About the Blu-Ray audio -

Blu-Ray HD audio (LPCM 96/24, DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD) are only available via HDMI or the analog audio outputs. The only difference between the analog and HDMI outputs is that the digital to analog decode is done in the player for analog outputs and is done in the receiver for HDMI. That means that you'll have an extra A-->D step with the analog but those are 192/24 D/As and A/Ds in the Marantz so I'd challenge if anyone could really hear artifacts from that conversion. The other key with using the analog outputs is you want to only use the bass management in the Marantz and never in the Blu-Ray player. So, pretty much set all speakers to large in the Blu-Ray player with no delays and equal levels. Then set the "real world" settings in the Marantz. Bottom line is that, if handled correctly, your 7.1-channel analog audio outputs will sound the same as the HDMI audio. Of course, I'm assuming the Blu-Ray D/A converter is on-par with the Marantz's.

If you were to use optical or coax S/PDIF instead, any Dolby True HD would be transmitted as Dolby Digital and DTS-HD MA would be the "core" DTS signal instead. Better than a DVD but not as good as what Blu-Ray can deliver. The cable box, however, will provide an equal signal over S/PDIF optical or coax since the best cable boxes can do is Dolby Digital or 48/16 LPCM. Both of those formats can be sent via S/PDIF with no changes.
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post #21 of 27 Old 01-16-2013, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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The cable guy has come and gone.
It is not the box because we swapped out an newer product with the same results.
still flashing on and off.

With his help we trouble shot further and compromised.
As of this writing I am able to darbee an toolbox to all displays.

Blu ray next saga
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-17-2013, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I have had the cable company attend to assist in this issue. A second hd box was tried with the same result of a flashing screen when routed via HDMI through the Marantz.
A work around is that the cable box HDMI output is now connected directly to a splitter which is set to 2 channel sound then to all displays. Audio from the cable box is routed via optical cable to the Marantz. HDMI audio is set to "through" for the benefit of secondary displays and to ensure all displays function.
As stated the lowest common denominator applies.

This is all good except that the Blu ray player then has to be routed separately as it cannot be connected in the same manner as the audio portion of the cable box to be able to receive HD audio from Blu ray discs.

I have run a separate HDMI cable direct from the Blu ray player to the main display. Another HDMI cable is then connected from the player to the Marantz. This still somewhat acceptable except that the Blu ray player does not get the benefit of the Darbee processing.
The problem is that with this connection method there is no sound when Blu ray is selected because the Marantz then has to be set to "enable" to receive sound via HDMI. Of course if left on this setting no sound will be available on the secondary sets.

For now I am able to get Darbee processing on all displays,nice. Audio on all displays at the same time when viewing cable,nice.

But viewing of a Blu ray disc does not get the benefit of Darbee processing.
Many a setting must be changed within the Marantz to view the disc then changed back again for the secondary sets to be able to function properly.

This of course is not a perfect solution but somewhat acceptable for now.

I have requested further support from Marantz as well as the cable company.

But I now think that the switching limitations of the Marantz will not allow the set up I thought I could achieve, but we will see.

Your were right Joe Fernand
Quote:
I would 'split' the HDMI Out signal of the Whole House sources before they get to the AVR and unless you are willing to replace all of the 'secondary' TV's with TV's which support 5.1/7.1 via HDMI (look for SRS TrueSurround HD) set the Sources to Video + 2.0 audio plus use Optical or Coaxial from those Sources into the AVR for DD/DTS in the Main Zone.

Trying to split, process (and potentially split again) the Output of the AVR and hope your kit will all auto switch between 2.0 and 5.1 via HDMI depending on the 'state' of the AVR is a pipe dream.
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post #23 of 27 Old 01-17-2013, 08:01 AM
 
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As long as you have the Marantz set to passthru, you will only have one option for multichannel and that is the 7.1-channel analog audio inputs (only option without changing a bunch of menu settings). I'm assuming your Blu-Ray player can send stereo over HDMI and at the same time send 7.1-channel outputs over the analog plugs. Some can, some can't.

HDMI will not help you with it set to passthru since the source would still have to send stereo over HDMI. If it did, I would have recommended an OPPO BDP-103 with its independent HDMI outputs. But, that won't help.

Wouldn't using the 7.1-channel analog outputs also solve your Darbee issue? You could then run the Blu-Ray into the Marantz with audio set to "External Input" and you would run through the Darbee.
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post #24 of 27 Old 01-17-2013, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Running the cable box through the Marantz causes flicker on and off confirmed by the trail of a separate cable box yesterday.
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post #25 of 27 Old 01-17-2013, 11:51 AM
 
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That's a separate issue from the Blu-Ray audio. What are your four inputs to the Marantz? I know two of the ones you want are the Blu-Ray and the Cable Box. What are the other two inputs?

If I understand your cable box routing (the way you want it) is Cable Box --> Marantz --> Darbee --> Gefen Tool Box --> TVs Is this correct?

If it is correct, does Cable Box --> Darbee --> Gefen Tool Box --> TV work? It should if the Marantz is the problem. If it is an interface problem, then removing any single item in the middle part of the chain (Darbee, Gefen, Marantz) will make it work.
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post #26 of 27 Old 01-17-2013, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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If I understand your cable box routing (the way you want it) is Cable Box --> Marantz --> Darbee --> Gefen Tool Box --> TVs Is this correct?

yup
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If it is correct, does Cable Box --> Darbee --> Gefen Tool Box --> TV work?

yup I just outlined all that above.
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If it is an interface problem, then removing any single item in the middle part of the chain (Darbee, Gefen, Marantz) will make it work.

yup took out the Marantz.

All good except no Darbee on Blu Ray and too many changes from cable to Blu ray.


But that's the way it goes.
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-17-2013, 01:35 PM
 
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You're right. We're just repeating things (although you might try rereading that part about any single item - not just the Marantz).

Good luck.
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