HDMI AV Receiver pass through vs. direct connection-picture quality? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Perhaps it is just me, but after changing my AV receiver to one with HDMI connections, the picture to the TV (Hitachi 42" plasma) seems worse.

I previously ran HDMI cables direct from the Comcast box to the TV, as well as Sony Blu Ray player directly. I swapped out an older receiver to a Pioneer VSX-818V, which has only video pass (it will transmit audio to the TV, but not to the receiver: a separate digital connection is required).

Now, after running the TV and BRP through the receiver, it seems the picture is just "not the same", sometimes with shimmer, pixelation, etc.

I have swapped the HDMI cables around, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. As fuel for the "cable quality" argument, the cables comprise a range of a $200 Monster cable, a mid range Monster, and a "mongrel generic". In my opinion, the "mongrel" seems to be the best!

I'm just wondering if anyone else notices picture degradation after switching to pass through connections after direct connection....

Thanks for your help.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 09:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Most likely a good read of the user manual AND a check of all settings will reveal that you have a "few settings" that are doing "things" that you don't need or "like"... hint: look at things dealings with scaling along with any picture adjustments in the receiver. Cables aren't the issue unless you are seeing "sparkles" (ie. errors).
budwich is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 09:36 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post

Perhaps it is just me, but after changing my AV receiver to one with HDMI connections, the picture to the TV (Hitachi 42" plasma) seems worse.

I previously ran HDMI cables direct from the Comcast box to the TV, as well as Sony Blu Ray player directly. I swapped out an older receiver to a Pioneer VSX-818V, which has only video pass (it will transmit audio to the TV, but not to the receiver: a separate digital connection is required).

Now, after running the TV and BRP through the receiver, it seems the picture is just "not the same", sometimes with shimmer, pixelation, etc.

I have swapped the HDMI cables around, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. As fuel for the "cable quality" argument, the cables comprise a range of a $200 Monster cable, a mid range Monster, and a "mongrel generic". In my opinion, the "mongrel" seems to be the best!

I'm just wondering if anyone else notices picture degradation after switching to pass through connections after direct connection....

Thanks for your help.

Well actually if you aren't getting sparkles or lines or screens that change to a solid color or no picture, then all of the cables are producing the same bits, which means the same picture quality. One is better than the other only because you think it is better.

But, philosophy aside, since the cables just transmit bits, then something is changing those bits. An AVR can do that. Certainly different inputs on some TVs have different settings associated with the input. For instance if you simply change contrast and brightness on one TV input and don't change those on the other input, one input will look different and you may perceive that as better or worse. But the key is something is acting on the signal to make it change.

Now if you are comparing component video versus HDMI, then you have a few more factors involved including who does better at converting the digital signal to analog. Is it the player (component video) or the TV (HDMI)? In the old days, if was often found that component video had a more pleasing picture than HDMI. Now (if you can do the comparison) and the TV is properly tuned, both give an equal picture.

So, the bottom line is check you AVR and your TV settings to see where you are modifying the bits.
alk3997 is offline  
post #4 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Well actually if you aren't getting sparkles or lines or screens that change to a solid color or no picture, then all of the cables are producing the same bits, which means the same picture quality. One is better than the other only because you think it is better.

But, philosophy aside, since the cables just transmit bits, then something is changing those bits. An AVR can do that. Certainly different inputs on some TVs have different settings associated with the input. For instance if you simply change contrast and brightness on one TV input and don't change those on the other input, one input will look different and you may perceive that as better or worse. But the key is something is acting on the signal to make it change.

Now if you are comparing component video versus HDMI, then you have a few more factors involved including who does better at converting the digital signal to analog. Is it the player (component video) or the TV (HDMI)? In the old days, if was often found that component video had a more pleasing picture than HDMI. Now (if you can do the comparison) and the TV is properly tuned, both give an equal picture.

So, the bottom line is check you AVR and your TV settings to see where you are modifying the bits.

Thanks for the info. I should have stated that I did not change any settings on the TV picture, and the AV receiver does not allow any "settings", it is simply a pass through/connection function. The receiver does not scaling at all.

In more detail, I do seem to exhibit more "shimmer" on items like auto grills, grass, window blinds, hairlines, etc. I previously had this issue with the plasma TV, and found the cure was to reduce the sharpness setting from "80" to "20". I must admit I am not sure if "shimmer" is the same as "sparkle" for picture issues.

As for the HDMI cables, I feel there are differences. To note, my most expensive HDMI cable, the Monster M1000, has a poor fit into HDMI recepticles. The male connecter ends are a "sloppy" fit into any component, whereas all others are a secure snug fit. Shame on me for not returning it, but it was a lesson in making sure you always know where the receipt is located!

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 10:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,417
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 255
^^^^ there are differences in HDMI cables only in price (Monster eek.gif) and the occasional build issues (true for all cables). If your connection is not snug or is strained, you will probably have issues. Other than that, a $10 Monoprice High Speed cable will perform as well as $40 "M" cable (probably "better" because you'll have that extra $30 in your pocket biggrin.gif).
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #6 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

^^^^ there are differences in HDMI cables only in price (Monster eek.gif) and the occasional build issues (true for all cables). If your connection is not snug or is strained, you will probably have issues. Other than that, a $10 Monoprice High Speed cable will perform as well as $40 "M" cable (probably "better" because you'll have that extra $30 in your pocket biggrin.gif).

In my case "better", as my most expensive "M" cable has sloppy fits on connection......

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 12:28 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post

....

In more detail, I do seem to exhibit more "shimmer" on items like auto grills, grass, window blinds, hairlines, etc. I previously had this issue with the plasma TV, and found the cure was to reduce the sharpness setting from "80" to "20". I must admit I am not sure if "shimmer" is the same as "sparkle" for picture issues.
..

It is not. Sparkles look like random dots. See this story's second photo for a good idea of sparkles look like:
.http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20056502-1/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/

By not different, I meant in picture quality, not in workmanship, build or cost.

And yes, shimmer as you described is usually the result of overhanded sharpness or other types of noise reduction being used. Check you TV settings for that setting and see if you have some types of noise reduction enabled or sharpness set too high.
alk3997 is offline  
post #8 of 27 Old 02-09-2013, 12:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
By "sparkles", I was referring to random "white things" throughout the picture... this usually indicatesan error. One question, are you seeing ON SCREEN displays of things like volume changesand the receiver menu / setups, etc???>
budwich is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 02-10-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post

By "sparkles", I was referring to random "white things" throughout the picture... this
usually indicatesan error. One question, are you seeing ON SCREEN displays of things like volume changesand the receiver menu / setups, etc???>

I do not see "sparkles" as you have described them; I can see the On Screen Display Menu (for the receiver) however, that is transmitted through the standard composite video connection (VCR) and not through HDMI.

Overall, I guess I'm questioning the "quality" of the receiver components for the HDMI pass through/switching. I understand the scientific basis that as long as the digital signal is transmitted, everything should be fine. Perhaps I should try switcing out the cable box with another in the house.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 02-10-2013, 08:57 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post

Thanks for the info. I should have stated that I did not change any settings on the TV picture...

I should have said earlier, that by not changing the TV settings from the default, you are setup for an overbright picture and overdone sharpness.

Even when the settings are unchanged, that does not mean that the same settings will provide the same picture from different types of inputs. For instance a composite video input will produce a much more muted and blurier input than with HDMI or component video showing the same program. You really need to have your TV "tuned" to have the best picture quality. Each TV is slightly different even if it is the same model.

For a start you can look-up what someone else used as settings in the "Flat Panel" section of the AVSForum. Look for a thread that is "owner's only" with your model number.
alk3997 is offline  
post #11 of 27 Old 02-10-2013, 09:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
OP... thanks for the extra info also... :-) I have at least one more question, kind of related to Andy's point. Prior to using the receiver, you ran hdmi connections directly to your TV... right? From what sources? I assume you used those same hdmi inputs (at least one) to now connect up the receiver... right? So those settings should be the same, at least in your eyes... :-) so the picture should be the same ... I agree. One more question, what is your TV display indicating (ie. "status") of the incoming signal... 1080x, what? Do not guess,... I would like the actual status especially when you say you are seeing a "shimmery" picture (ie. multiple close lines like on sports referee shirts, etc) or the picture looks soft. Further, your receiver has only two hdmi inputs and one output so I assume you only have two hdmi sources hooked up... right? The previous question about tv display status (ie. incoming resolution) applies to all sources. thanks for additional info and your time.... I think it will help us.
Further, is your comment about PQ related to both sources AND to any of the TV inputs used by the receiver???

Lastly what model of hitachi are you using??? (boy that lots of questions... :-))))

As a side note, I don't think "pass thru" is as pass thru as you / we think... ie. that everything is left "untouched", but maybe it is... :-) hence your initial question / comment.
budwich is offline  
post #12 of 27 Old 02-11-2013, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post

OP... thanks for the extra info also... :-) I have at least one more question, kind of related to Andy's point. Prior to using the receiver, you ran hdmi connections directly to your TV... right? From what sources? I assume you used those same hdmi inputs (at least one) to now connect up the receiver... right? So those settings should be the same, at least in your eyes... :-) so the picture should be the same ... I agree. One more question, what is your TV display indicating (ie. "status") of the incoming signal... 1080x, what? Do not guess,... I would like the actual status especially when you say you are seeing a "shimmery" picture (ie. multiple close lines like on sports referee shirts, etc) or the picture looks soft. Further, your receiver has only two hdmi inputs and one output so I assume you only have two hdmi sources hooked up... right? The previous question about tv display status (ie. incoming resolution) applies to all sources. thanks for additional info and your time.... I think it will help us.
Further, is your comment about PQ related to both sources AND to any of the TV inputs used by the receiver???

Lastly what model of hitachi are you using??? (boy that lots of questions... :-))))

As a side note, I don't think "pass thru" is as pass thru as you / we think... ie. that everything is left "untouched", but maybe it is... :-) hence your initial question / comment.

Hi Budwich, thanks for your reply. Here are the answers to your questions:

1. (Prior to AV receiver install) I did run HDMI cables directly from the Comcast Set Up Box (Pace RNG110), and a Sony BRP (BDPS-360) to the TV. The TV is a Hitachi 42" plasma, model 42 HDS52A. I used a Monster M1000HD HDTV cable for STB, and a Monster Ultra 800(?) HDMI for Blu Ray player.

2. The "settings" were not changed on any equipment. The TV picture settings were "tuned" by me from the factory defaults. Basically I turned the sharpness way down, "Auto Noise" off, contrast down a bit, color "warmed" a bit, etc. I did set both "Picture Menus" to the same settings, as my Hitachi allows custom setting between inputs.

3. The (TV) invoming signal is 1080i; as per both the TV "info", and a signal check within the Comcast "Diagnostic" menu. (I relaize many shows actually come through at 720p and not 1080i)

4. I do have only two HDMI inputs connected to the receiver (TV & BRP). I do have a VCR connected through AV via composite, and a CD player with digital optical connection.

5. For the most part, my concern over PQ is centered on the cable (TV) picture quality. I really have not given the BRP enough viewing to make a judgement.

Lastly, I admit, and understand that this is a "lower end" AV receiver. One would want to assume that a higher end model may have better parts, build quality, etc., thus resulting in a better picture, or at least more consistent quality. I feel this is leading to the question; "if you purchase a "higher end" model, what are you actually gaining in video/audio reproduction?

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 02-11-2013, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
OK,,,, that's great info. Thanks for your thoroughness and patience, My guess is that perhaps you are "psycho".... :-) as in "psychosematic", seeing things... :-))) BUT they could be real... :-)

Of course, with your setup it could be hard to compare before and after (ie. direct versus thru rcvr) especially with the set top box. The brp offers better hope because you can play the same sequence, change your cabling and play it again. That way, hopefully your mind won't play too much tricks on you... :-) but it is hard. OF course, the easiest way to do that "test" is to run static tests that are included in a few discs to aid in tv setup (the one most useful is the one for checking resolution / processing .... lots of lines of varying spacing and thickness).

Anyways, clear your mind... :-) I think one of your basic issues is the 1080i settings.... try and get rid of those... Ie. don't allow anything especially your brp to use that setting. This is where it gets interesting. I am not sure why your brp player would cause that display especially during a movie as the "normal" incoming setup should result in 1080p/24 display assuming that the display can handle that (i think it can). Further, set the output on your cable box to 720p, you will likely find that the resulting image is better .,.,. don't get fooled by the "bigger numbers result in a fuller HD image" :-) not necessarily true especially with respect to 1080i.... which involves a "bunch of things" like de-interlacing and such isn't always done in the greatest way.

I think in the end, you will find that your rcvr has little or no effect on the pq on hdmi (with passthru) and that your "psychosis" will dimish... :-) "thank you very much... that will be my usual fee of $300 / hr / per visit... signed Sigmund"... :-)))

Having said that ... as I said "passthru" may not be "totally passthru" as some units may modify / change the transmitted EDID either intentionally or not. This could cause an issue IF when directly connected, two devices (ie. source and sink) "choose" one resolution to play with while in the other mode (passthru), three devices (ie. source, intermediary, sink) choose another. Hence, my question about what your tv display thinks it is displaying question.

Good luck... I think you are almost cured... :-)


PS> Ah... I think I see why the 1080i, your tv can only take in 1080i signals (max) which are then reprocessed to a 1080p "like picture" and ultimate display even though it would appear to have a "1080p native" resolution display...:-(
budwich is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 02-11-2013, 11:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Your Thread had me searching for an article on CEPro from ‘way back’ in time (HDMI time that is smile.gif) - http://www.cepro.com/article/maintaining_hdmi_switching_and_signal_path_integrity/K330

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #15 of 27 Old 02-11-2013, 01:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Probable explanation although it doesn't seem to indicate what if any processing is done anywhere unless I am misreading things. Actually, if I read it correctly, it is quite misleading because it discusses 1080p "things" but shows pictures of a 1080i signal. We kind of know that the handling of 1080i signals going towards a 1080p signal (de-interlacing and such) is a "science". If it is handle poorly, then bad things will happen. Hence, are they actually saying that the "poor" implementation of the 1080i -> 1080p "scaling" done in the receiver is well... bad. Duh! I think that is a common question in receiver forums... what device should I use to "upscale"?.... answer, which ever one does it best.... OTHERWISE, turn it off. In the OP scenario, he has a pass thru receiver so there is no "upscaling" but he is perhaps seeing a difference which actually might be true, I think, because there is also some "jitter" issues especially when a de-interlace activity is involved which could be related to the article (I surely assume Joe S wouldn't have "missed" the processing semantics). Certainly, worth considering though but not sure if it applies to other signals types.... good find though.
budwich is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 02-12-2013, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post

PS> Ah... I think I see why the 1080i, your tv can only take in 1080i signals (max) which are then reprocessed to a 1080p "like picture" and ultimate display even though it would appear to have a "1080p native" resolution display...:-(

Yes, unfortunately my Hitachi plasma was just "pre" 1080p, o 1080i is the max resolution it can handle. The BRP is set to "HDMI detect", the BRP WILL upscale from say 480p/i to 1080p/i, whatever the TV can handle.

In the past I have tried your suggestion of setting the TV's max resolution to 720p, but it did not seem to really have an impact on PQ. The overall pictures looked a bit "softer".

In short, perhaps I will give it some time, and I will see if I can cure myself.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 02-12-2013, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

Your Thread had me searching for an article on CEPro from ‘way back’ in time (HDMI time that is smile.gif) - http://www.cepro.com/article/maintaining_hdmi_switching_and_signal_path_integrity/K330

Joe

Very interesting article; this seems to be the point I was making, although not to the same degree. I feel I share the same "moral of the story" that it shouldn't make a difference, but sometimes it does!"

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #18 of 27 Old 02-13-2013, 11:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 62
‘but sometimes it does!"’ – agreed and only running a test via the AVR will tell you for sure that it is a true ‘Passthru’ device.

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 02-13-2013, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
only outstanding question that I have is do the OP try turning overscanning "stuff" off in the TV... although I don't actually know what that might mean with this particular setup.
budwich is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 02-15-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post

only outstanding question that I have is do the OP try turning overscanning "stuff" off in the TV... although I don't actually know what that might mean with this particular setup.

Hi (again) Budwich;

Perhaps to help detail this issue; when I first set up this receiver the only "change" to the TV (and cable box) were running HDMI through the AV receiver. I had previously "calibrated"/"tuned" the picture, mostly taking the "factory default" settings to a more "natural" picture (sharpness reduced, edge enhancement off, noise reduction off, "auto movie" off, etc.). I did not touch the TV video settings after reconnecting. So, in this now "DOE" (Design of Experiment), the only variable changed was running the HDMI connection through the AV receiver, and of course adding the "extra" HDMI cable/connection.

A peculiar thing I notice (now), is that when I change channels (on STB), the TV screen "flashes" pink/purple for a second. It is as if the receiver is trying to "catch up" on processing/passing the signal. I did not experience this screen shot before the HDMI pass through on the AV receiver.

FYI, I have tried, and compared TV picture quality, by switching the STB capability from 1080i to 720p. In my opinion, I do prefer the higher resolution of the 1080i picture for normal viewing. I have no intent of opening that debate, but I thought I would give it a try. FYI, I do have the cable box set to NOT upscale 720p or other resolutions to 1080i. I also leave picture sizes as native (no stretching, etc.)

I hope this answers your question.....again, thanks for all your help.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #21 of 27 Old 02-15-2013, 09:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
thanks again... I too am not trying to "dispute" your "claims" but rather trying to understand where the "things" might happen.
Even though you say you did change things other than the cable, doesn't mean they can't change.... what???? well, there are some options that are set as "auto"..... as in "automagic".... :--) that means they "move" on things outside your direct control and in some cases your awareness. Hence my question about overscan.. I was just wondering if it was specifically set to OFF or perhaps to auto or other values does it make a difference as the referred to article claimed in their case.
Related to the above, just because you don't change a setting doesn't mean that it won't have a different impact. Just a "what if" (don't know if this is how it works), but if the timing wasn't off enough to trigger the overscan feature in the direct cabling but was on the thru rcvr route, then that processing might be involved.... not saying good or bad, just saying different. Similarly, I do believe that perhaps passthru is sometimes not "full passthru" and that the receiver may modifiy the EDID sent back towards the source. IF that happens' perhaps the one sent back IS one which has the 1080i set and not 720p or some combination there of which causes the cable box to upscale at the source in which case, you might be seeing an "unexpected" upscale that isn't quite as good as that of the tv especially when 1080i is the output. Remember the referred to article indicated to turn of processing (implied along the route) but I am not sure if you can or can detect that it is happening in your case. IF the receiver is moding the edid, then you would need to either see the incoming signals resolution OR see what the box's output actually is.... IF you have it set to "auto", then it might be "changed" by the incoming" EDID without your knowledge. On my sat box, I con only set a resolution either 1080i or 720p, I can't do auto. Of course, this has no bearing IF you too can only set a resolution BUT you indicated that you weren't doing any upscaling.... so it might be box specific and perhaps a EDID "catch ya"... :-)

Further, your observation about the channel changes, to me does seem to indicate that indeed you are seeing resolution change "catch up"....maybe

Anyways, I don't want to waste your time or others but certainly an interesting happening / discussion at least from my view. Hope its similar for you.

My guess is that IF you have an "auto" setting on the stb, that perhaps the receiver is "moding" the EDID in a way that the stb is interpreting the result that it needs to send a 1080i signal and thus upscaling is in fact happening in a place you don't want it to happen.... ;-(

PS. there are some "inconsistencies" in the dialog. For instance, you indicate that you have not selected upscaling anywhere. However, one posting, you indicated that the status resolution on the tv screen indicated an incoming resolution signal of 1080i. This means that the source units are sending a 1080i signal... so if the original signal was a 720p signal then the source is upscaling it to 1080i prior to sending it to the TV. Further, on a blue ray player, where the bluray disc is 1080p (24), the player is "downscaling" the signal prior to sending it to the tv.. So some form of scaling at the source is involved, I think. It is important to be very sure about the incoming signal. For instance, I have a 720 native projector. I send it 1080p (24) signals all the time and let it handle the conversion as opposed to doing the conversion in the player. The incoming signal status on the projector indicates a 1080p(24) signal and NOT a 720p signal.
budwich is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 02-16-2013, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by budwich View Post

thanks again... I too am not trying to "dispute" your "claims" but rather trying to understand where the "things" might happen.
....PS. there are some "inconsistencies" in the dialog. For instance, you indicate that you have not selected upscaling anywhere. However, one posting, you indicated that the status resolution on the tv screen indicated an incoming resolution signal of 1080i. This means that the source units are sending a 1080i signal... so if the original signal was a 720p signal then the source is upscaling it to 1080i prior to sending it to the TV. Further, on a blue ray player, where the bluray disc is 1080p (24), the player is "downscaling" the signal prior to sending it to the tv.. So some form of scaling at the source is involved, I think. It is important to be very sure about the incoming signal. For instance, I have a 720 native projector. I send it 1080p (24) signals all the time and let it handle the conversion as opposed to doing the conversion in the player. The incoming signal status on the projector indicates a 1080p(24) signal and NOT a 720p signal.

Thanks again budwich,

Your input has been very educational. To clarify some of my posting inconsistencies (720p vs. 1080i, etc.), you are correct in that different signals are being sent to the TV from the STB. I (later) did go through many stations, and selected some "sports networks", as they often broadcast in 720p. The TV did identify those signals as 720p. Further, my Blu Ray does "downscale" 1080p Blu Ray discs, and "upscale" standard DVDs. Again, this scaling is performed by the Blu Ray Player.

My "question" centers around my business/manufacturing experience; in that I question both the "quality" of components installed, as well as the installation process. In my newer set up, the "change" should only be adding an HDMI connection (the AV Receiver) and cable length. In essence, only adding conductive metal (length) to the signal path. However, perhaps the AVR is "looking" for the audio signal, or something else which causes a change.

Hence, I am left with the question, is an expensive AVR going to offer any "connection advantage"? Putting aside "up conversion", etc. Lastly, I do offer some "validation" to your hypothesis of my "psychosis", as I am sure the rest of the family would see no difference at all. (Though they say they don't see a difference between SD and HD broadcasts!!!). I do have critical eyes and ears, and perhaps I am noticing something now, that I did not note before the change.

As an aside to this, while watching "The Expendables 2" last night, I could actually see the resolution difference in shots of Sylvester Stallone close up. At first I thought the "AVR" issue, but I noticed the resolution would improve in the same shot, just going from Sly to a younger actor! So, I hear your response already!....If I can detect that defined a change, then the connection and pass through must be working as it should.......

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 02-20-2013, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
bizwiz41's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
As a bit of follow up, I think I have identified the issue cause. After unrelated browsing in other forum topics, I noticed that the Comcast cable box often does not "like" to work with pass through/connection to an AV receiver. In my case this seems to make sense, as I've gone back and looked at DVD play, and I don't seem to see the same degradation.

I know the Comcast boxes are very sensitive to power supply, perhaps the pass through simply weakens the signal. After some reading, I consider myself lucky that I do not have the scale of problems many others have encountered. Although it defeats the purpose of the AV receiver, perhaps I will have to return to a direct HDMI connection from box to TV....

Sometimes I have to remind myself that I bought all this "stuff" to enjoy it!
bizwiz41 is offline  
post #24 of 27 Old 02-20-2013, 08:28 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post

...

I know the Comcast boxes are very sensitive to power supply, perhaps the pass through simply weakens the signal. ....

Which signal? Certainly not the 1s and 0s in the box or on the HDMI connection.

We often talk about ones and zeros being represented as a voltage in chips or in transmissions. They are actually represented as a range of input voltages, not a single voltage. This is the so-called non-linear region where you can change a little input voltage and it doesn't change the output voltage (the 1 or the 0). You can think of this as the output signal being clipped at the higher level (unchanging) and at the lower level (also unchanging).

Now in the analog world clipping is bad since that distorts the signal. But in the digital world, clipping is good because that is what makes the 1s and 0s reliable.

So, what happens when we lower voltage in a digital system enough to go back into the linear region? Then the system has a more difficult time trying to determine what is a 1 or is a 0. In this linear region, the chip may incorrectly determine a 1 or a 0. The result of this is most likely incorrect calculations in a chip or on an HDMI line you'll end up with noise on the screen. It is next to impossible for random noise to produce an improved signal or even a coherent signal that results in a contrast or brightness or resolution change. Bad programming can do that but not random noise.

Now if you tell me that the lower voltage was in an analog circuit then I can start to understand how that could change a signal in the way you are seeing. Of course, with a cable company I never discount that possibility that the signal degredation could be at their source as they try to squeeze more channels into the available cable bandwidth.

I've over-simplified the above explanation since a discussion of edge-triggered logic and differential signaling wouldn't change the conclusions. But, I did want to put that disclaimer here for someone who might be using this for a future discussion. I also should point out that there were times in the analog world, particularly with recording tape, that slight analog clipping was good.
alk3997 is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 02-20-2013, 08:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
Skytrooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baden, Pa.
Posts: 534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 86
My Sony Receiver has no HDMI in's or out's. Even if I got a new receiver, I would still connect components (video) directly to the LCD. I'm a believer of that less in the way of the signal, the better.

A little off the subject, I tried HDMI on my Dell computer monitor and found the old DVI-D cable produced a sharper picture.

(LCD - Sony KDL - XBR4) (Receiver - Sony STR-DA4ES)(Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83) (PS3)( Dish Hopper DVR With Sling) Speakers (L & R - Paradigm Studio 20) (Center -Paradigm CC-470) (Surrounds & Back Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15R in walls) (Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12) (Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100)
Skytrooper is offline  
post #26 of 27 Old 02-20-2013, 08:40 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skytrooper View Post

My Sony Receiver has no HDMI in's or out's. Even if I got a new receiver, I would still connect components (video) directly to the LCD. I'm a believer of that less in the way of the signal, the better.

A little off the subject, I tried HDMI on my Dell computer monitor and found the old DVI-D cable produced a sharper picture.

Sure, different input to the Dell means different processing chips with different capabilities and different settings. It was not unusual in the mid-2000s for the component video inputs to have a better picture quality than the HDMI inputs.

As far as a receiver in the way - if the bits are the same going in as coming out, then there is no change in the picture. If you modify the bits with the receiver then the results can be either a better picture, such as some upscaling, or a worse picture.

There are plenty of ways to screw-up a picture by changing settings without using an AVR. The AVR just gives the user even more ways.

Personally, I like how my AVR upscales and so I use that.
alk3997 is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 02-20-2013, 12:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
budwich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Wow....biz... I think you should stick with the "poor quality components / receiver" story.... at least then the couch will be softer and your mind will be at ease... :-)
budwich is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off