HDMI Extenders? What's the Story.... - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
MarkDGaal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a need to use an HDMI to Cat5e Extender in my home, but can't seem to find a simple, laymen's explanation, on why some are HDMI to 2 Cat5e/6 vs some being to 1 Cat5e/6.....

Are there any advantages or disadvantages to 1 vs 2? I have 2 Cat5e cables terminated at each one of my TVs, however in many cases there is already a HTPC or similar unit taking up one of the Keystones.

Also is the difference in price merited on these two units?
http://www.amazon.com/Extender-Adapter-Single-Cat5e-Extension/dp/B003E7YRWS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1369339031&sr=8-3&keywords=hdmi+extender+cat5e+cat6

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2
MarkDGaal is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 01:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Where there are x2 CAT cables used the key parts of the HDMI signal are left unaltered and are split across the two CAT cables – usually HD Video with embedded Audio on CAT-1 and everything else on CAT-2 (which can include IR, Power, RS232, Optical audio – things not directly supported on a direct HDMI <>HDM connection).

Where there are x1 CAT cables you enter into another world where the various components of an HDMI signal have to be pre –processed before they will run over the single CAT cable.

Some designs require that the Video signal is compressed to limit its bandwidth (sometimes a fixed compression – others its dynamic).

Other single CAT designs will utilise the New 'add on' HDBaseT or HDBaseT-lite chip set from Valens which packetizes the HDMI signal to allow it to pass without compression over a single CAT cable - and again you can add other features to the party, including 10/100 Ethernet support with HDBaseT.

I can only comment on the kit we supply:

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20ethernet%20converters.html

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI_extender_HD70STPEX.html

Fire away if you have any question on the above.

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #3 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 01:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Almost embarrassed to ask this, but what the hell..........

The basic function of Cat-5e/6 is to either extend a wired connection from one location to another so that a streaming device (internet capable blu-ray player, AppleTV2, etc) can connect to a router (via ethernet), or to send the streamed signal from one location to a display device in another location. Correct? The former only requiring the Cat-5e/6 to be terminated at either end with an RJ-45 connection (for ethernet) and the latter requiring a more elaborate connection?
Otto Pylot is online now  
post #4 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Colm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 88
The basic purpose of any Category x cable is to carry telecommunications signals, originally voice, later data. How it is used depends on the application.

Put 8P8C modular plugs (often erroneously referred to as RJ-45 plugs) on each end of a Category 5e/6 cable following the appropriate wiring convention and you have an "ethernet" cable that can be used to connect devices in an ethernet network, like a Roku box to your ethernet router or switch. There are a few HDMI extenders, such as Just Add Power's HD over IP, that are ethernet devices. But most extenders are not ethernet devices and cannot be connected to ethernet devices. They just use the same cable because it is cheap and readily available. Even HDBaseT, which uses technology similar in many ways to gigabit ethernet, is not compatible with ethernet.
frankfarmer likes this.
Colm is offline  
post #5 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 05:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Thanks Colm. I knew somebody would give a more precise explanation of my question (which is a good thing smile.gif). We're starting a remodeling project very soon and one of the "things to do" is connect the computer room to the family room so I can wire my HTS instead of relying on WiFi. I had asked a similar question a couple of months ago when I was REALLY confused so I just wanted to double check before I start purchasing cable, connectors, boxes, etc. The Budget and Finance Chairman is running a tight ship on this project wink.gif
Otto Pylot is online now  
post #6 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 07:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,990
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDGaal View Post

I have a need to use an HDMI to Cat5e Extender in my home, but can't seem to find a simple, laymen's explanation, on why some are HDMI to 2 Cat5e/6 vs some being to 1 Cat5e/6.....

Are there any advantages or disadvantages to 1 vs 2? I have 2 Cat5e cables terminated at each one of my TVs, however in many cases there is already a HTPC or similar unit taking up one of the Keystones.

Also is the difference in price merited on these two units?
http://www.amazon.com/Extender-Adapter-Single-Cat5e-Extension/dp/B003E7YRWS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1369339031&sr=8-3&keywords=hdmi+extender+cat5e+cat6

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2
There is only one actual company (I believe) making HD-Base-T chip sets such as the one within the unit you linked to.

HD-Base-T has been widely adopted by major manufacturers as a 'standard'. This means that the audio and video portions on the front end and back end are interchangable from one brand to another. Crestron, AMX, Panasonic, Extron, Aurora Multimedia, PureLink, and others have all started to use HD-Base-T as their choice of product for long haul HDMI extension.

The use of Cat-5/6 allows the transmission of the HDMI signal beyhond 300 feet without issue in most cases and provides an 'exact length' extension which is bascially impossible in the world of HDMI by itself.

Now, the previous extender... Read the reviews of it... Poorly made, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. A lot of very poor marks on that product (about 25% are 1 star reviews), and I'm not sure if anyone has really pushed it hard with 1080p with HD audio. That is where HD-Base-T tends to excel in that it supports 1080p without issue, and has channels to further support Ethernet (10/100) as well as data communications such as IR or RS-232 along the same single Cat-X cable.

Personally, I've tried almost every single HDMI extender Monoprice has sold and none have come close to matching up with their newest HD-Base-T extenders. Many worked fine for limited distance video up to 1080i, but as soon as the PS3 was connected to my 3D plasma, they failed to deliver. The second I plugged in the HD-Base-T units, it recognized the signal, recognized the TV, and delievered full HD 1080p without a hiccup.

I recently had a chance to play with the new Panasonic laser/LED hybrid projector, which will be installed shortly, and it has a HD-Base-T receiver integrated into the projector. It can either be set to Ethernet only mode, or can be set to HD-Base-T mode. In HD-Base-T mode it accepts control, Ethernet, audio, and video up to 1080p over a single cat-x cable. The theory is that any HD-Base-T compliant transmitter should work with this projector.

I put it to the test with transmitters from Crestron, AMX, Extron, Aurora Multimedia, and both Monoprice models. Every single one of them, without exception, delivered as promised. 1080p audio and video over a single piece of cat-5e cabling. To get serious, I took three 100' lengths of cat-5e and used a standard coupler to put them together and one final 12' piece coupled to the end. 312' of cat-5e with 3 couplers between them all... No issues.

There are very few products that get the industry motivated in such a manner, but HD-Base-T has moved towards being accepted as a 'industry-standard' within the last couple of years. It does carry a higher price tag right now, but may eventually show up on consumer televisions and sources within the next few years.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #7 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 07:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,990
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Almost embarrassed to ask this, but what the hell..........

The basic function of Cat-5e/6 is to either extend a wired connection from one location to another so that a streaming device (internet capable blu-ray player, AppleTV2, etc) can connect to a router (via ethernet), or to send the streamed signal from one location to a display device in another location. Correct? The former only requiring the Cat-5e/6 to be terminated at either end with an RJ-45 connection (for ethernet) and the latter requiring a more elaborate connection?
To elaborate a bit on this...

Cat-x cable is just cable. What you choose to do with a cable depends on what you want or need to do with it.

It is common to use cat-x cabling for powering low voltage devices, such as low voltage keypads and simply doubling up the wiring.
Control via IR or RS-232 can be sent across the wire, with just two or three or so of the individual wires being used to carry the signal.
In the case of HDMI video over cat-x cable, the cable is terminated with a RJ45 connector (the common term for the 8P8C connector), and typically terminated using a 568b wiring scheme, which means that if plugged into a network on both ends, it would carry an Ethernet signal, but tranmission of HDMI video over cat-x is not an Ethernet based standard. It doesn't use TCP/IP.

Obviously, the most common usage of cat-x cable is to carry Ethernet through a home or business. To connect your computers, your home routers, your Ethernet enabled devices.

But, Ethernet is not HD video and HD video is not Ethernet. HDMI is not an Ethernet standard... But, it is possible to put HD video across a Ethernet network. IPTV is growing in popularity within large corporations. The ability for anyone to use their local PC to tune television stations, or to put a IPTV set top box next to a television is gaining momentum. But, the compression levels for IPTV are far higher than what is used on uncompressed HD video over HDMI. HDMI measures the data flowing across it in Gbs, while Ethernet still is measured in Mbs. HDMI 1.4 is rated to 10.2 Gbit/s. Typical HD IPTV is about 3 or 4 Mbit/s.

But, at the end of the day, cat-x is just a cable. It's just copper. How you use it is up to you and depends on what your specific needs are. My philosophy at this point is that cat-x is such a versatile product, that several runs of it to each location that may need it are a great idea. Three or four pieces to each TV from one central location? Yeah, that's a great way to do things!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #8 of 11 Old 05-23-2013, 09:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 241
^^^^^ thanks for expanding on what Colm said. I am thinking on running a second cable and just leaving it curled inside the gang box, just in case wink.gif The other cable will go to a gigabit switch.
Otto Pylot is online now  
post #9 of 11 Old 05-24-2013, 12:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Otto – x4 CAT6 to each location is our advice to folk, they are tending to find uses for the cables as their system plans expand/new tech becomes available.

Others wail say also ensure you have conduit running to each location as you may require even more cable further down the lifespan of the system.

AV-I – Valens are the folk who created and licence HDBaseT. You can now purchase HDBaseT silicon and add on modules (such as Power over HDBaseT) from a few suppliers.

Joe
AV_Integrated likes this.

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Joe Fernand is offline  
post #10 of 11 Old 05-24-2013, 08:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 7,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 241
^^^^^ unfortunately the Budget and Finance Chairman wants to see an immediate return on the investment and having $200 of cable sitting in the wall un-used and earmarked for "possible" future use will get vetoed frown.gif I'm also more than likely going to stick with Cat-5e because of cost and the fact that this is just an ethernet extension, and won't be used for anything else, unless someone can give me a good argument for doing otherwise.
Otto Pylot is online now  
post #11 of 11 Old 05-24-2013, 08:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 61
‘the Budget and Finance Chairman wants to see an immediate return’ – that sounds like the go-ahead to purchase more kit to hang on the end of the cable biggrin.gif

Joe
AV_Integrated likes this.

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Joe Fernand is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off