In-line HDMI Audio DSP? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 10-20-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
I'm guessing this doesn't exist as I've never seen it or heard of it, but wanted to go ahead and ask...

Has anyone heard of anyone making or developing an in-line HDMI audio DSP?

Monoprice has their HDMI analog audio extractor which maintains HD audio through the HDMI connection, which is awesome if you need to feed an analog system to your home, but it seems that all the HDMI switchers which are reasonably priced still run into this huge issue where they go to the lowest format audio. This typically will be stereo audio since that's what most TVs have, and it completely blows the HD audio which should be there.

So, I was wondering if there was any HDMI DSP which could be placed in-line with a TV near a matrix switch (or standard switch) which would tell the source that it was capable of all audio codecs, but then took whatever was fed to it and downmixed it to stereo. This way the HD audio is preserved and there is no funkiness to the setup as my surround setup would still receive HD audio, but my TVs or other sources would receive standard stereo converted by the in-line DSPs.

Hey Joe - if this doesn't exist, anyone you can talk to about developing it? Seriously, this is an issue with pretty much every HDMI matrix switcher on the market today. Monoprice, Gefen, Aurora, Control4... You name it, they all fail. AMX and Crestron have about the only two real solutions, and they are $$$$$$$!!!

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 03:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 61
AV_I – you have no idea how much time I have spent trying to convince our team to develop a unit!!!

The ‘problem’ is not the Tech it’s the licensing cost from the audio decoding folk vs. the quantity you could produce/sell.

There are one or two options out there – they retail at around $350-$450 so getting to the point where it is simpler to stick in a budget HDMI equipped Soundbar.

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is online now  
post #3 of 20 Old 10-21-2013, 09:44 AM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
I think you've just hit a capability that is do-able but just doesn't have enough people asking for it.

Unfortunately, it remains easier to just send a dedicated analog stereo signal from each source to the stereo TVs, even if that means switching the analog stereo separately from the HDMI signal and running stereo RCA cables. Then hope that lip sync isn't an issue (or that it can be corrected).

With the exception of Roku-type devices, every component seems to have a stereo RCA output along with the HDMI.
alk3997 is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 10-22-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

I think you've just hit a capability that is do-able but just doesn't have enough people asking for it.

Unfortunately, it remains easier to just send a dedicated analog stereo signal from each source to the stereo TVs, even if that means switching the analog stereo separately from the HDMI signal and running stereo RCA cables. Then hope that lip sync isn't an issue (or that it can be corrected).

With the exception of Roku-type devices, every component seems to have a stereo RCA output along with the HDMI.
But that doesn't fix the EDID issue of the audio being pushed down to stereo because the TVs are stereo. You will still need a EDID minder for every single stereo sink that is connected.

I mean, I have in-wall/ceiling speakers in all my TV locations so I don't even need audio, but I am reluctant to go to HDMI because of the blanking issues with affordable HDMI switchers (which I still can't afford yet) and the audio issue. Also helps that I have very little need for a full blown HDMI in more than one location at this time.

Yeah, there are some very real economies of scale that I'm aware of with this, but I'm hopeful we will see it eventually.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 10-22-2013, 12:58 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

But that doesn't fix the EDID issue of the audio being pushed down to stereo because the TVs are stereo. You will still need a EDID minder for every single stereo sink that is connected...

Actually that does, or more correctly it bypasses the EDID. For many devices, including the OPPO BDPs and DirecTV DVRs, the source itself will generate a two-channel analog audio signal irregardless of the type of audio signal going out the HDMI port. The OPPO line requires a menu setting.

For example if I have a Blu-Ray disc in the OPPO, I can send 7.1-channel out the HDMI port and at the same time send two channel out the analog ports. The EDID only is used for HDMI. So, it bypasses the whole question. Of course, then you have to run two separate analog output lines to all your 2-channel sinks.

A slight variation on this is that you can run your S/PDIF output to one of those e-bay specials that convert 5.1-channel digital to 2-channel analog. Then take the 2-channel to the TV. The advantage there is that you can run 5.1-channel (lossy) to those setups that can use multichannel (but don't need lossless) while also sending 2-channel analog to the TVs.

As long as you stay away from trying to convert HDMI, the problem becomes much easier (and cheaper) to solve.
alk3997 is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 10-22-2013, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Actually that does, or more correctly it bypasses the EDID.
But, the video is carried to all the displays through a HDMI matrix. That's my main point. The HDMI matrix will still be connected to a TV which has EDID which talks to the matrix and requests audio to be stereo, and since most switchers don't have EDID management, most sources will be downgraded to stereo. This is regardless of whether or not you make a analog audio connection to things.

I'm setup with about two dozen analog destinations in my home along with one (going on two) surround setups, but the EDID issue is a big one because what you are describing only bypasses it if I don't have a HDMI sink with EDID on it, which isn't going to be the case when using a HDMI matrix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

For example if I have a Blu-Ray disc in the OPPO, I can send 7.1-channel out the HDMI port and at the same time send two channel out the analog ports. The EDID only is used for HDMI. So, it bypasses the whole question. Of course, then you have to run two separate analog output lines to all your 2-channel sinks.
Oppo may allow for some sort of override, but most sources do not. When connected to multiple HDMI sinks, as it typically the case with a HDMI matrix switcher, the EDID from the lowest common denominator is typically what establishes video and audio quality. Without a house full of 3D 1080p video and HD audio displays, it all typically gets converted down to the lowest common denominator, which may be 1080p/stereo or similar depending on the displays/setup in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

As long as you stay away from trying to convert HDMI, the problem becomes much easier (and cheaper) to solve.
As I said, I'm pretty sure what you are describing tries to ignore EDID, which can't be done to my knowledge without an EDID minder in place.

On top of all this, while many TVs do have a analog audio input which can be paired to a HDMI input, that is starting to go away as devices turn heavily to HDMI.

I'm not sure how the EDID would react on a HDMI device reports as DVI (no audio), but I'm not sure if it can spoof HD audio, or that manufacturers care to do so.

I'm not sure how your setup is, and if you are using multiple HDMI sinks off a single output HDMI source with multiple audio feeds, but from all I've been researching, what you are describing isn't going to work in a larger installed system.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 10-22-2013, 09:42 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
You're correct, I missed that part. I'm using component video to the stereo TVs for that reason. I suppose you could use what I original said with the cheapest box that overrides the EDID audio parameters so they stay 5.1/7.1 and then send the analog stereo from the source device. You would probably be looking at $100 per display. That should work.
alk3997 is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

You're correct, I missed that part. I'm using component video to the stereo TVs for that reason. I suppose you could use what I original said with the cheapest box that overrides the EDID audio parameters so they stay 5.1/7.1 and then send the analog stereo from the source device. You would probably be looking at $100 per display. That should work.
That would work as long as the display supports analog audio inputs with a HDMI connection. Most seem to still do this in case a DVI source is connected.

This is not for me though, it is for all the hundreds of others who have just run a single cat-5e/6 cable to their displays and the eternal promise of the 'one connector' world.

Monoprice has their HDMI Audio Converter which is under $50 and will pass-through HD audio while creating a analog stereo mix on the line, with EDID minding to force HD audio, so what I'd like to see is similar (and why Joe wants to see it). My bet is we may see this from a company like Monoprice if they already have licensing deals in place for the HDMI audio converter which integrates DSP, this is just a modification (albeit major) to that same concept.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 09:04 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,441
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

AV_I – you have no idea how much time I have spent trying to convince our team to develop a unit!!!

The ‘problem’ is not the Tech it’s the licensing cost from the audio decoding folk vs. the quantity you could produce/sell.

There are one or two options out there – they retail at around $350-$450 so getting to the point where it is simpler to stick in a budget HDMI equipped Soundbar.

Joe

And I have been trying to convince every manufacturer I can to do this, too.  Cost is always the issue, especially since such an external DSP would be selling into a small volume market.  Most folks are happy with what's in their AVRs.

 

I have played with devices from Trinnov and DEQX to miniDSP and had to mess with redundant A/D/A conversions that would have been eliminated with HDMI (or, even, USB) connectivity.


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #10 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 09:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kei Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, US
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I'm not sure if the audio de-embedder in this Key Digital switch would do what you're asking, but at least it takes care of the blanking problems with EDID management. They also build an extender now with de-embedder.
Kei Clark is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 09:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,441
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark View Post

I'm not sure if the audio de-embedder in this Key Digital switch would do what you're asking, but at least it takes care of the blanking problems with EDID management. They also build an extender now with de-embedder.

2 channel only.


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #12 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 10:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kei Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, US
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Ah, so doesn't a receiver with multi-channel analog output do the job? Or maybe the user asking for a switch with multi-channel analog audio ouputs?
Kei Clark is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 10:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,441
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark View Post

Ah, so doesn't a receiver with multi-channel analog output do the job? Or maybe the user asking for a switch with multi-channel analog audio ouputs?

Many do but in order to use an external mch DSP, one would have to suffer the additional A/D/A sequence.  I have done this but it is less than optimum.


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #14 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Not a switch, a matrix. The use of analog audio is a non-issue in all of this. Analog audio is easy to get, it's the EDID that's the issue. Audio insertion on HDMI is really pricey, but possible, stereo analog extraction from multi-channel audio is easy, and cheap, but inline DSP conversion to maintain HD audio is expensive. AMX and Crestron both employ DSP techniques which do this, at a cost that is significantly higher than other solutions.

Most switches with analog output, or even HDMI audio extractors, just follow a 'what I get in, I spit out' mentality, but that's not even in the ballpark of what is being discussed here. I'm not talking analog, not one drop. Analog doesn't fix that the TV on the end of a HDMI cable demands 2-channel audio. You can't get rid of that without EDID spoofing the source, and since the source is then putting out HD audio, the display can't use internal speakers.

Now, I suppose if you aren't using the internal speakers on a display, then putting a half dozen of these in place:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011412&p_id=10251&seq=1&format=2

If the setup uses audio distribution for everything and fool all the sources into thinking HD audio is supported everywhere, but it will not allow the speakers in a TV to be used for anything. Not sure how the TV will react to getting an HD audio feed, but hopefully it'll just ignore it as unsupported and won't say as much on screen.

I don't need anything in my home right now or in the immediate future, and I have full analog audio already routed everywhere, so that doesn't matter either, but the solution I ask for in my first post answers the problem which I've seen dozens of people ask about on these forums in the last couple of months.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei Clark View Post

this Key Digital switch ... but at least it takes care of the blanking problems with EDID management.
The blanking issue I'm talking about it HDCP related, not EDID related, and a simple switch is not a matrix switch.

If you ever see a two-zone AVR with dual HDMI outputs that can be different, you will see what blanking I'm talking about as HDCP is renegotiated across all displays.

I've yet to see a list of matrix switchers which don't have this issue.

I know the big three - Extron, AMX, and Crestron do not have this issue. Joe says their switchers don't have this issue, and PureLink doesn't have this issue. But, I believe a long list of others does have this issue. Not actually sure which of the cheaper ones don't have this issue. The Gefen Toolbox matrix I used recently does have this issue.

But, that's a different issue from my original topic.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 11:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Joe Fernand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 1,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 61
'Not sure how the TV will react to getting an HD audio feed' - some Buzz (loudly), some decode the Front LR (sounds very odd) - others simply fall over.

Joe

If I've helped 'Like' me on Facebook - www.facebook.com/Octavainc

Joe Fernand is online now  
post #17 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

'Not sure how the TV will react to getting an HD audio feed' - some Buzz (loudly), some decode the Front LR (sounds very odd) - others simply fall over.

Joe
I suppose if we could get all HDTV manufacturers to accept HD audio, it would just resolve this problem without further need of another product.

Meh, hopeful that no TV ever just up and shoots me if I try to give it some DTS-MA lovin'.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 10-23-2013, 04:05 PM
 
alk3997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 87
...or just wait for HDMI 2.0 and change out all your equipment so that it is HDMI 2.0 compatible (or whatever they end up calling 2.0). That still doesn't seem cost effective to me.
alk3997 is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 10-24-2013, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

...or just wait for HDMI 2.0 and change out all your equipment so that it is HDMI 2.0 compatible (or whatever they end up calling 2.0). That still doesn't seem cost effective to me.
I use component for everything, so HDMI has stayed pretty cost ineffective for what I've been working with so far. Not like I'm going to upgrade all my 720p and 1080p displays when 4K comes along... Okay, maybe my projector.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 10-24-2013, 09:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kei Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, US
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
If you ever see a two-zone AVR with dual HDMI outputs that can be different, you will see what blanking I'm talking about as HDCP is renegotiated across all displays.

Depends on the design of the matrix switch. It's an expensive hardware upgrade to add HDCP/EDID management. They kind of work hand in hand, to recognize what's attached to that output only, but also to store it so it does not have to sync each time it's switched. Because each of the outputs are addressed separately, you won't see the blanking. I don't have that problem on my 4x4, and the switching is instantaneous.
Quote:
I've yet to see a list of matrix switchers which don't have this issue.

I know the big three - Extron, AMX, and Crestron do not have this issue. Joe says their switchers don't have this issue, and PureLink doesn't have this issue. But, I believe a long list of others does have this issue. Not actually sure which of the cheaper ones don't have this issue. The Gefen Toolbox matrix I used recently does have this issue.

You have to ask the manufacturer if their matrix has HDMI management. Aside from the manufacturers listed above, there's Key Digital, NeoPro, Zektor, and I believe Joe mentioned another. I haven't checked the Purelink, but I imagine price will be the indication...though if you need less than 4x4 outputs, the prices should be down considerably by now.
Kei Clark is offline  
Reply HDMI Q&A - The One Connector World

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off