HDMI Matrix Switch - "bandwidth" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 02-03-2014, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I've read through some threads trying to understand "bandwidth" (340 MHz/10.2gbps v 225 MHz/6.75 Gbps). Long story short..

Firstly, thank god i've had almost a year while my new house is under construction to consider hdmi matrices. This thing is so complex/confusing. I was initially convinced I would do the octava 4xN matrix with hdbaset lite built in. Then I decided, I really want to be able to pass LAN over that same category cable, so now the octava unit is out.

I'm back to where I started, which is looking at pure hdmi matrices + hdbaset baluns with the "5play" of poe, rs232, hdmi, ir, ethernet. As I look as matrices, I now notice that the MAJORITY of the models are 225MHz/6.75gbps. A few are 340MHz/10.2gbps, and those are more expensive. However, in my mind, if I'm going to spend $4000 on this stuff, I don't mind paying an extra $1000 if the extra $1000 is worth it.

So my question is, what's the big difference in those "bandwidth" numbers? Keep in mind I am a user who will 99.999% only be using the matrix for directv and apple tv. I don't ever watch blurays nor have a projector nor do I do surround sound, 7.1 or any of those audio things either.

Also, does anybody have experience with NTI (network technologies inc) or kanexpro?
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post #2 of 15 Old 02-03-2014, 10:13 AM
 
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Good news / bad news - The good news is that 1080p/60 with no deep color will fit within both. Max audio rate is about 18 mbps (8-channel LPCM at 96/24), so it isn't going to influence the 6.75gbps or 10.2gbps number too much.

The bad news is that neither will handle UHD at 60 fps. That will be up in the 18gbps of HDMI 2.0.

DirecTV only sends programming at 1080i or 720p (the receiver does the 1080p conversion), so that will actually be a very small bandwidth compared to HDMI's max. What resolution are you running Apple TV at?

It's unusual to hear about someone spending that much money on an HDMI matrix without spending at least the same amount on sources and sinks. Mind if I ask why?

BTW, I'm sure Joe will respond if Octava has a matrix switch that might help your situation.
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post #3 of 15 Old 02-03-2014, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Good news / bad news - The good news is that 1080p/60 with no deep color will fit within both. Max audio rate is about 18 mbps (8-channel LPCM at 96/24), so it isn't going to influence the 6.75gbps or 10.2gbps number too much.

The bad news is that neither will handle UHD at 60 fps. That will be up in the 18gbps of HDMI 2.0.

DirecTV only sends programming at 1080i or 720p (the receiver does the 1080p conversion), so that will actually be a very small bandwidth compared to HDMI's max. What resolution are you running Apple TV at?

It's unusual to hear about someone spending that much money on an HDMI matrix without spending at least the same amount on sources and sinks. Mind if I ask why?

BTW, I'm sure Joe will respond if Octava has a matrix switch that might help your situation.

I've analyzed my habits for the past couple of years and directv with on-demand fills almost all my needs. Don't even have a bluray player. Apple tv (1080p max) for some streaming demands of my wife. I'm not big into UHD at all tbh; 1080p looks pretty good to me. Audio; same thing...not really into surround sound and all that. I do like music through sonos, but not into tv/movie audio.

However, I have 8 tvs. I wouldn't even have a problem with "leasing" 8 DTV boxes. The problem is functionality, especially with the dvr/tuner features. It's not really adequate. Accessing stuff on a shared dvr is cool, but not being able to remotely control each dvr on the system is a big problem. It's too much of an inconvenience to go to room A and dvr A to record shows just so that dvr B is available to watch live tv. But then that also means dvr A is unavailable to watch live tv. The genie thing is even worst if you're using those small room boxes. Big scam imo in terms of functionality.

Believe me, I wish hdbaset stuff was cheaper, but it isn't. The choice is either i live with a really poorly run system and still pay something like $300-$400 initial + $50/$60 a month just for the boxes, or I suck it up and invest in matrix, allowing much better functionality and control over my tvs.

As for octava, I looked at their offerings and they currently don't offer hdbaset 5play in either their matrix nor their baluns.
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post #4 of 15 Old 02-03-2014, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by labfm View Post

...Then I decided, I really want to be able to pass LAN over that same category cable, so now the octava unit is out...

JMO, but your "100 BaseT Ethernet on the same cable" requirement really complicate$ matters. Perhaps you could drop this requirement and reconsider adding CAT6 home runs dedicated for Ethernet?

I've been using a 6.75Gbs Atlona AT-PRO3HD44M with AT-PRO3HDREC extenders for a year and am very pleased with the results. In our case, it eliminates duplication of devices (Blu-ray players, streaming media players, cable set-top boxes, OTA dvr's, WiFi extenders, uninterruptible power supplies, remotes, etc.). Because all the equipment is in the wiring closet with the matrix, I also don't need expensive TV console furniture to hide the equipment. I guess my point here is that a quality switch can save a lot of time managing multiple devices and may not cost a lot more.

HTH,
Tom
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post #5 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 04:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomandjudy View Post

JMO, but your "100 BaseT Ethernet on the same cable" requirement really complicate$ matters. Perhaps you could drop this requirement and reconsider adding CAT6 home runs dedicated for Ethernet?

I've been using a 6.75Gbs Atlona AT-PRO3HD44M with AT-PRO3HDREC extenders for a year and am very pleased with the results. In our case, it eliminates duplication of devices (Blu-ray players, streaming media players, cable set-top boxes, OTA dvr's, WiFi extenders, uninterruptible power supplies, remotes, etc.). Because all the equipment is in the wiring closet with the matrix, I also don't need expensive TV console furniture to hide the equipment. I guess my point here is that a quality switch can save a lot of time managing multiple devices and may not cost a lot more.

HTH,
Tom

Passing LAN over the same cable isn't really adding as much expense as you think. Monoprice has a extender kit (no POE) passing LAN for $210. That's dead cheap. Even the other more expensive brands with POE, I can find multiple other extender kits passing LAN for $300-$400 per unit as well. The price points are either similar or less than 5-10% more expensive than normal hdbaset extenders without LAN.

As to adding additional CAT6 runs...sounds good in theory but unfortunately, I'm working with a dick of a builder. He's charging $160 per CAT6 drop. I already have 10 drops in the house. I rather spend the additional $1300 on equipment that would provide a more robust system. Given the direction hdbaset is continually heading, there's going to be more consolidation of things that pass over a single cat6, not less.

Anyways, it looks like 6.75gbps isn't that much of an issue given my needs (unless someone else chimes in).
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post #6 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 05:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by labfm View Post

Passing LAN over the same cable isn't really adding as much expense as you think. Monoprice has a extender kit (no POE) passing LAN for $210. That's dead cheap. Even the other more expensive brands with POE, I can find multiple other extender kits passing LAN for $300-$400 per unit as well. The price points are either similar or less than 5-10% more expensive than normal hdbaset extenders without LAN.

As to adding additional CAT6 runs...sounds good in theory but unfortunately, I'm working with a dick of a builder. He's charging $160 per CAT6 drop. I already have 10 drops in the house. I rather spend the additional $1300 on equipment that would provide a more robust system. Given the direction hdbaset is continually heading, there's going to be more consolidation of things that pass over a single cat6, not less.

Anyways, it looks like 6.75gbps isn't that much of an issue given my needs (unless someone else chimes in).

How much to put in conduit instead? A lot of us would take conduit over additional cat6 runs and then run the cables ourselves after the build is complete. I now have dual cat 6's in most rooms in our house and had none installed before the build was complete. Conduit is the only real way to be future-proof.
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post #7 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 07:18 AM
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At $160 a drop, it would be cheaper to run no cables at all, then pay someone after the house is done to run all the cables. You may have to patch a few walls, but the overall price will be less than what you are dealing with right now... of course, that kind of depends on the layout of your home. But, wiring during construction is a very unique opportunity and well worth the money if you can't retro wires in easily. The cost for a difficult retro job is a fair bit more than what I said, but an easy retro job with access is fairly inexpensive.


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post #8 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 07:33 AM
 
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At $160 a drop, it would be cheaper to run no cables at all, then pay someone after the house is done to run all the cables. You may have to patch a few walls, but the overall price will be less than what you are dealing with right now... of course, that kind of depends on the layout of your home. But, wiring during construction is a very unique opportunity and well worth the money if you can't retro wires in easily. The cost for a difficult retro job is a fair bit more than what I said, but an easy retro job with access is fairly inexpensive.

That makes no sense if you can install conduit instead. There would be no drywall repair with conduit and you wouldn't have to move furniture and protect carpet during the repair time. If someone has already closed-out walls then this would make sense.
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post #9 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 07:41 AM
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Yes, conduit makes more sense if it can be run.


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post #10 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by labfm View Post

Passing LAN over the same cable isn't really adding as much expense as you think.

I provide support for a small number of organizations which use switchers/extenders and have had mostly negative experiences with the brand you mention as well as other economy brands. Be careful.

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Originally Posted by labfm View Post

Anyways, it looks like 6.75gbps isn't that much of an issue given my needs (unless someone else chimes in).

I've posted this elsewhere (as have others), but it bears repeating:

The CAT6 cable will have the best high frequency transmission characteristics when it is properly terminated at each end with a CAT6 RJ45 plug and then connected directly to the HDBaseT switch at one end, and the receiver at the other end. IOW, connect the one cable end-to-end. Avoid the use of keystone jacks in wall plates, punch down blocks, and patch cables, etc. This applies to any brand/model extender.

HTH
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post #11 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomandjudy View Post

I provide support for a small number of organizations which use switchers/extenders and have had mostly negative experiences with the brand you mention as well as other economy brands. Be careful.

Monoprice? Kanexpro? NTI? I won't be using monoprice anyway but was using it as an example of the price differential between regular hdbaset extenders and 5play hdbaset extenders. The same applies even as you go to "better" brands, at least in my searches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomandjudy View Post

I've posted this elsewhere (as have others), but it bears repeating:

The CAT6 cable will have the best high frequency transmission characteristics when it is properly terminated at each end with a CAT6 RJ45 plug and then connected directly to the HDBaseT switch at one end, and the receiver at the other end. IOW, connect the one cable end-to-end. Avoid the use of keystone jacks in wall plates, punch down blocks, and patch cables, etc. This applies to any brand/model extender.

HTH

Yes, i've been cautioned about this time and time again so I've already instructed the builder to terminate on both ends rj45 plug w/ 10 ft of play on both ends for each run; no breaks, wall plates or patch panels.



As to others suggesting conduit; I asked and got a poor number there as well ($150 per run). The base house came with 5 cat6 runs, so I was able to stomach adding 5 more.

Anyways, i guess from a bandwidth perspective, not much to worry about with the 6.75gbps v 10.2gbps.
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post #12 of 15 Old 02-05-2014, 03:22 PM
 
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I predict (but hope I am wrong) that in 5 years you will think the $150 per conduit run was cheap. (we paid $75 per run 4 years ago and I wish I had done a few more).
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post #13 of 15 Old 02-06-2014, 10:04 AM
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At $150 a run, I would opt for conduit everywhere and not run a single cable considering their pricing. $3,000 for an investment of 20 conduits which will be useful 20 years from now and can be rolled into the mortgage payment... Seems well worth it IMO. Not sure how much conduit I will run when I button up my basement, but it will definitely be in place as it will lock out my first floor access.


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post #14 of 15 Old 02-06-2014, 10:44 AM
 
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Thanks for repeating me. I've always appreciated a good parrot. Thanks again for the help.
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post #15 of 15 Old 02-06-2014, 01:25 PM
 
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You do that a lot, you know (the repeating what someone has already said). It's good to attribute when copying otherwise it just sounds like you are copying someone's opinion. It also shows you actually read the other posts in the thread before appending.
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