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post #181 of 226 Old 04-25-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post

Certified High Speed and 'engineered to deliver' are not one and the same thing!

Careful use of wording in the link you provide.

Joe

From Monoprice:
Quote:
have been engineered to deliver at least the full 18Gbps data required by the new HDMI spec.

Barring third party independent testing, I am confident Monoprice is not marketing snake oil when it comes to their data transmission rates.

My point above was that while any HDMI cable of any speed will work with any HDMI hardware version, when you need the increased bandwidth for higher frame rate or deeper bit rate color, most of today's cables rated for the full data bandwidth of HDMI 1.4 won't cut it. You will have to upgrade to a newer cable that can handle the full HDMI 2.0 bandwidth to get the additional features HDMI 2.0 provides, simple as that.
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post #182 of 226 Old 04-25-2014, 10:23 PM
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Then by all means go ahead and buy what you want if you think you're going to get a cable that will get you HDMI 2.0 performance when ready. I hope all of your hardware is fully HDMI 2.0 compliant as well.
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post #183 of 226 Old 04-26-2014, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

My point above was that while any HDMI cable of any speed will work with any HDMI hardware version, when you need the increased bandwidth for higher frame rate or deeper bit rate color, most of today's cables rated for the full data bandwidth of HDMI 1.4 won't cut it. You will have to upgrade to a newer cable that can handle the full HDMI 2.0 bandwidth to get the additional features HDMI 2.0 provides, simple as that.
It is not clear that is the case. AFAIK there are only class 1 and class 2 cables (standard and high speed) even under HDMI 2.0. IOW there haven't added a new certification for higher speed cables. The HDMI licensing folks even say that a high speed (passive 10.2 Gbps) cable will work. And it will to some distance, just what that distance is has yet to be seen. The signaling method has been tweaked a bit for the higher speeds. Maybe a cable design that is good to 25 feet at 10.2 Gbps will be good for 15 feet at 18 Gbps, maybe more, maybe less. Maybe if you can get away with a 28 AWG cable now you will have to upgrade to a 24 AWG cable. Folks with long cables may have a problem. The percentage who will have problems is anybody's guess. But there is a HDBaseT chip set due out this year that should do the job for any reasonable length.

I think the 18 Gbps claim for the monoprice Redmere cable is causing a bit of confusion. The 18 Gbps seems to be simply monoprice's claim, not a certification from an ATC. The claim is understandable. They have to differentiate between their older Redmere cables with the 10.2 Gbps chips in them and the new ones with the 18 Gbps chips even though both are high speed cables because the older cables will not work at the higher speeds at any length. But that says nothing about the capabilities of existing passive high speed cables at the higher speeds possible under HDMI 2.0. BTW I will take monoprice's claims on the Redmere cables at face value for now, but you might want to take anything that monoprice says with a grain of salt. Check out the thread on their "12 AWG" speaker wire.

FWIW the only HDMI 2.0 features that might require an upgrade are those that push the bit rate beyond the limit of the existing cable. Other features will work just fine on existing cables. But I think you know that.
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post #184 of 226 Old 04-26-2014, 01:53 AM
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In the end it will be quite a while before any of us will technically *need* a HDMI cable with more than 10.2 Gbps bandwidth for all practical purposes. And to your point, I am sure there is great variation in actual data throughput between different cables at different lengths. I think the secret for high data transmission rates over longer cable runs (to the projector or a distant 4K TV through an HDMI Matrix switch, for example), will be a baluns-based system and not a long HDMI wire. However (and as you would expect at this early stage), all current baluns systems, even HDBaseT, cannot transmit the 18Gbps data rates over any distance. I'm sure the products will come in due time.
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post #185 of 226 Old 04-28-2014, 12:24 PM
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Anyone got a source for a list of existing receivers with are compatible with HDMI 2.0 standards?

Ian
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post #186 of 226 Old 04-28-2014, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by IRJ View Post

Anyone got a source for a list of existing receivers with are compatible with HDMI 2.0 standards?

Sony, Onkyo, and Pioneer have, or will be shortly, releasing new receivers that are supposed to be HDMI 2.0 compatible. However, what remains to be seen is how many protocols of the HDMI 2.0 standard they will have and if they will be using the new HDMI 2.0 chipsets, or do some voodoo firmware/software upgrade to limited compatibility like Sony did with their new HDMI 2.0 tv's.
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post #187 of 226 Old 04-28-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by IRJ View Post

Anyone got a source for a list of existing receivers with are compatible with HDMI 2.0 standards?

 

I put this list together using only info from the manufacturer's official websites and the owners manuals for each model.

 

2013 models

 

Sony STR DN840 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (after firmware update) 10.2 Gbps, HDCP 1.3

Sony STR DN1040 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (after firmware update) 10.2 Gbps, HDCP 1.3

Sony STR DA1800ES - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (after firmware update) 10.2 Gbps, HDCP 1.3

Sony STR DA2800ES - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (after firmware update) 10.2 Gbps, HDCP 1.3

Sony STR DA5800ES - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (after firmware update) 10.2 Gbps, HDCP 1.3

 

2014 models

 

Onkyo TX-NR535 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Onkyo TX-NR636 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 2.2

Onkyo TX-NR737 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 2.2

Onkyo TX-NR838 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 2.2

 

Pioneer VSX-824 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:4:4* or 12-bit 4:2:2 (* Future firmware update required for 4:4:4) 18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Pioneer VSX-1024 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:4:4* or 12-bit 4:2:2 (* Future firmware update required for 4:4:4) 18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Pioneer VSX-1124 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:4:4* or 12-bit 4:2:2 (* Future firmware update required for 4:4:4) 18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Pioneer Elite VSX-44 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:4:4* or 12-bit 4:2:2 (* Future firmware update required for 4:4:4) 18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Pioneer Elite VSX-80 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:4:4* or 12-bit 4:2:2 (* Future firmware update required for 4:4:4) 18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

 

Sony STR DN550 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Sony STR DN750 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Sony STR DN850 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Sony STR DN1050 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

 

Yamaha RX-V677 - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

Yamaha RX-V777BT - Up to 4K/60p 8-bit 4:2:0 (No mention of being able to upgrade to a higher bit depth or better color sub-sampling at present.) ? Gbps, HDCP 1.3?

 

Notes:

 

1) Denon & Marantz have not released info on their upcoming 2014 models yet.

2) Sony is the only manufacturer to have already provided firmware updates for their 2013 models enabling 4K/60p passthru on the models listed.  It appears that none of the other manufacturers will be updating their 2013 models.

3) Pioneer is the only manufacturer that has actually provided the bandwidth of the chips in their 2014 models.  They say that they are capable of 18 Gbps so, at least bandwidth-wise, meet the full HDMI 2.0 spec.  They have already announced that they will be providing a future firmware update to add 4:4:4 color sub-sampling.  They make no mention of what their current color bit-depth or sub-sampling is, nor have they said whether the bit-depth can be increased by a future firmware update.

4) Onkyo is the only manufacturer to list HDCP 2.2 compliance on their TX-NR636, 737, & 838 models.  The Onkyo TX-535 does not mention HDCP 2.2, so it is assumed that it will only support HDCP 1.3 and below.

5) Yamaha has also announced the release of three lower-end 2014 models: RX-V377, 477, & 577.  All three cap out at 4K/30p.

6) Higher-end 2014 models have not been announced by any of the manufacturers yet.

TMcG, cardoski and UHDesire like this.
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post #188 of 226 Old 04-28-2014, 05:13 PM
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Nice list. Glad you took the time to compile it. I think Pioneer btw is the only mfr so far who is making their own HDMI 2.0 chipsets so I would expect them at some time to be closer to full compliance than the other mfrs. Now, if the rest of the devices (tv's, stb's, etc) can get the new chipsets.......
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post #189 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 06:36 AM
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Which is better for picture quality! 4:2:2, HDMI 2.0 can accommodate up to 12 bits of resolution for 4K/UHD at 50/60 fps. And at 4:4:4, HDMI 2.0 is limited to 8 bits?
Will 444 at 8 bit give a better picture or will 422 with a 10 bit panel?
In the case of a new 4K tv should one look for a 10 bit panel which can handle 422 or go with an 8 bit panel with 444?
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post #190 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 08:06 AM
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What do you guys think about the audio side of HDMI 2.0? I am in need of a new AVR and do not want to spend money on the first available AVR that's hdmi 2.0. Since, they might not have the full specs later on down the road for 4K BD. With advances in UHD audio, would it be a safer bet going with an amp? I'm using an Oppo, so my AVR is just for audio. I know resale value is much better with an amp than an AVR.
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post #191 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

What do you guys think about the audio side of HDMI 2.0? I am in need of a new AVR and do not want to spend money on the first available AVR that's hdmi 2.0. Since, they might not have the full specs later on down the road for 4K BD. With advances in UHD audio, would it be a safer bet going with an amp? I'm using an Oppo, so my AVR is just for audio. I know resale value is much better with an amp than an AVR.

If you're wanting to have the audio side ready for UHD, I would wait until receivers or pre-amp's come out with object audio decoding. Don't just get the first thing that gets released in the next few months. Just because it has HDMI 2.0, the product may not have the full audio/video capabilities of the new UHD media. They haven't even locked down the specs. yet.

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post #192 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

Which is better for picture quality! 4:2:2, HDMI 2.0 can accommodate up to 12 bits of resolution for 4K/UHD at 50/60 fps. And at 4:4:4, HDMI 2.0 is limited to 8 bits?
Will 444 at 8 bit give a better picture or will 422 with a 10 bit panel?
In the case of a new 4K tv should one look for a 10 bit panel which can handle 422 or go with an 8 bit panel with 444?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a 10 or 12-bit panel can accept and display an 8-bit 4:4:4 signal provided the pipeline between the source and display can support the bandwidth.  Giving it a 4:4:4 signal actually means the TV has to do less work since it doesn't have to fill in the color information for as many pixels as less color information was discarded to begin with.  On the other hand, an 8-bit panel can never display anything higher than 8-bit color no matter how low you take the resolution.  So, from this perspective, the 10 or 12-bit panel will always have greater potential than an 8-bit panel.

 

However, a 10 or 12-bit panel also costs more than an 8-bit panel, all other things being equal.  So, if you want to know whether or not the extra money for the 10 or 12-bit panel is worth it then you would have to know if any of the content you view on that display will ever be encoded with a bit depth of greater than 8.  To know this for certain, you will have to wait until the UHD specs are finalized.  It appears that they are at least entertaining the idea of going to 10 or 12-bit video in the next few years for UHD content.

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post #193 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you're wanting to have the audio side ready for UHD, I would wait until receivers or pre-amp's come out with object audio decoding. Don't just get the first thing that gets released in the next few months. Just because it has HDMI 2.0, the product may not have the full audio/video capabilities of the new UHD media. They haven't even locked down the specs. yet.

I will use an Oppo as my pre amp anyways. But I have a broken avr at the moment. I'm just going to go with an amp and hope I can use it when a 4k Oppo comes out
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post #194 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

2014 models

Pioneer VSX-824 - Up to 4K/60p ?-bit 4:?:? at release (Pioneer claims that it will be upgradable to 4:4:4 via. a future firmware update.  No mention of bit depth.)  18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?
Pioneer VSX-1024 - Up to 4K/60p ?-bit 4:?:? at release (Pioneer claims that it will be upgradable to 4:4:4 via. a future firmware update.  No mention of bit depth.)  18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?
Pioneer VSX-1124 - Up to 4K/60p ?-bit 4:?:? at release (Pioneer claims that it will be upgradable to 4:4:4 via. a future firmware update.  No mention of bit depth.)  18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?
Pioneer Elite VSX-44 - Up to 4K/60p ?-bit 4:?:? at release (Pioneer claims that it will be upgradable to 4:4:4 via. a future firmware update.  No mention of bit depth.)  18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?
Pioneer Elite VSX-80 - Up to 4K/60p ?-bit 4:?:? at release (Pioneer claims that it will be upgradable to 4:4:4 via. a future firmware update.  No mention of bit depth.)  18 Gbps, HDCP 1.3?
Quote:
Ultra HD (4K) Upscaling and Pass-Through (4K/60p/4:4:4/24-bit*, 4K/24p/4:4:4/36-bit, 4K/60p/4:2:2/36-bit)

* 4:4:4 color support requires future firmware update
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/Manuals/Home/VSX-1124-K%20Single%20Sheet_v3.pdf
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post #195 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I will use an Oppo as my pre amp anyways. But I have a broken avr at the moment. I'm just going to go with an amp and hope I can use it when a 4k Oppo comes out

I don't see how you can plug a player directly into a power amp without a some sort of pre-amp in between. Most players only have line level out signal strength.

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post #196 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 09:34 AM
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A lot use there Oppo 105 as a pre amp and even some with the 103
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post #197 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 10:47 AM
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Thanks.  I updated my list above to reflect this.  Just so nobody is confused, when a manufacturer quotes 24 or 32 bit color, that is the total # of bits for all 3 primaries.  For the purposes of the above list, all values will be expressed in terms of number of bits per primary, since that is how they are most commonly listed.  In other words, if a manufacturer says 24 bits, that translates to 8 bits per color (8 x 3 = 24) and if they say 36 bits, that translates to 12 bits per color (12 x 3 = 36).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

A lot use there Oppo 105 as a pre amp and even some with the 103

What amp are you wanting to get? Multi-channel?

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post #199 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 10:58 AM
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What amp are you wanting to get? Multi-channel?

a 7 channel amp. I have amps for my 3 subs already. I actually used PA speakers with my Oppo and it didn't sound too bad
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post #200 of 226 Old 05-01-2014, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

Thanks.  I updated my list above to reflect this.  Just so nobody is confused, when a manufacturer quotes 24 or 32 bit color, that is the total # of bits for all 3 primaries.  For the purposes of the above list, all values will be expressed in terms of number of bits per primary, since that is how they are most commonly listed.  In other words, if a manufacturer says 24 bits, that translates to 8 bits per color (8 x 3 = 24) and if they say 36 bits, that translates to 12 bits per color (12 x 3 = 36).
Cheers. You might also want to point out that the $600 Pioneer VSX-1124 and $700 Pioneer Elite VSX-80 have two, rather than one, HDMI 2.0 18Gbps outputs. I don't think many AV receivers feature this, but this will be useful for those who own two displays (indeed, I'd like to see more budget screens along the lines of the Seiki range, with no onboard tuners or processing or upscaling whatsoever, like a monitor, so it could all be left to the AVR and its input devices. It'd be even better if they featured no speakers and only a single HDMI 2.0 input so that the price could be driven down further - the money could be focused on a 10-bit or even 12-bit panel with minimal motion blur or input lag. There are a couple of proposals in the Ultra-D thread for people who could use the second HDMI 2.0 output on the above AVRs for a second, dedicated glasses-free 3D screen. Therefore, if my proposed bare-bones screen was 2D only - like the Seiki - then this would drive down the price further still).

I'm looking forward to seeing the other manufacturers' AVRs and also preamps. Several of the latter category feature XLR outputs but, as I'm aware, only the $1100 Denon DN-500AV preamp also features XLR inputs (useful for DJ mixers with XLR outputs, such as the $1000 Denon DN-X1600, which also features an in-built soundcard) so I'm interested to see the HDMI 2.0 successor to that. Incidentally, D&M Holdings recently sold Denon Professional, Marantz Professional, and Denon DJ to inMusic Brands (which already includes Akai Professional, Alesis, Alto Professional, ION Audio, Numark, M-Audio, AIR Music Technology, and Mixmeister), so the products under the D&M roadmap will presumably come to market later this year, whereas products which will now be developed under inMusic will presumably come to market in 2016.
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post #201 of 226 Old 05-10-2014, 06:23 PM
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So....now hdmi 1.4 4K/60p (4:2:0) is now called hdmi 2.0 compliant without hardware upgrade ?

Or will be called Hdmi 1.4 and supports 4K/60P (4:2:0) some manufacturers already put their specs out ....2160p/60hz (hdmi 1.4) see the Lumagen website

Or the Oppo Firmware
Added support for the "4Kx2K@50/60Hz" resolution to the BDP-103D/105D (HDMI 1 only, and in YCbCr 4:2:0 format only).

Projector Mitsubishi HC5

Projector Optoma hd300x 

Av receiver Onkyo TX-NR 818

Oppo 103D

Media player Med1000x3D

 

 

KEN KREISEL DXD-808 

Q7000 5.1

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post #202 of 226 Old 05-11-2014, 09:26 AM
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Those specs are in the "gray area" so even though they are at the maximum of 1.4a (10.2Gbps) bandwidth, they fall under the HDMI 2.0 umbrella because of backwards compatibility. It is definitely shady to call it 2.0 without some sort of qualification but the mfrs are allowed to get away with it.
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post #203 of 226 Old 05-11-2014, 10:58 AM
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What TV have 12 bit panels? Geeze I just found out my Sony W9 is a 10 bit with 12 bit processing.


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post #204 of 226 Old 05-11-2014, 07:33 PM
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Do this mean that current 4k GPUs will be able to output games at 4k60hz?
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post #205 of 226 Old 05-13-2014, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Do this mean that current 4k GPUs will be able to output games at 4k60hz?

Currently not at any meaningful quality. Given that some next-gen console titles still cant run in 1080p/60 quadrupling the pixels isn't going to be easy. But I imagine AMD and nVidia are working hard.
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post #206 of 226 Old 05-15-2014, 06:40 PM
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Will HDMI 2.0 TVs be more likely to (officially) accept 120Hz input from computers, or at the very least more than 60Hz?
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post #207 of 226 Old 05-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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Hi guys.. .my 2nd post here and i came across seeking crucial information as matter HDMI-2.0 which Scott greatly explained.

 

I w8ting a LG 55UB850V which is 4k 60p HEVC to arrive in a week ... and according to manual the HDMI-2.0 port its 4K 60p 10bit but nothing is said there as matter the 4.2.0 or 4.2.2.... i mailed LG customer support asking for clarification in this and w8ting for their answer.. but as long as i read information the more im in the side to cancel the order and w8 some months for the thing to settle down.

The problem is that my old LG felt down and destroyed (dont ask how) so i need a TV asap and this TV specs and Picture Quality seems prety good for the price (1700€ in Greece with Bonus a LG BD740 4k Player).

 

So im stuck a bit....

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post #208 of 226 Old 05-27-2014, 08:33 AM
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Sounds like you NEED a tv now so I'd say go for it. It's a good tv so you should be happy with it. I personally don't think that the tv mfrs are going to be completely transparent in what their HDMI 2.0 tv's have in the way of compliance until late this year or next year. Once the chips are readily available I think we'll see more features listed etc instead of "HDMI 2.0 Compliant" which is very vague. There's probably going to be a huge push as it gets closer to "Black Friday (Week)" with all kinds of marketing spin which will probably confuse matters even worse. TV mfrs are going to want to be getting rid of the "HDMI 2.0 Compliant" tv's inventory, or what ever they will be calling them because the true HDMI 2.0 sets (with embedded chipsets) will be coming.
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post #209 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 09:35 AM
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Is it true that HDMI 1.4 can carry 8 channels of multi-channel audio but HDMI 2.0 can carry up to 24?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #210 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 09:44 AM
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HDMI 2.0 can carry 32 channels of PCM audio.

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