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post #211 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

HDMI 2.0 can carry 32 channels of PCM audio.

Thanks, Sanjay! And the limit on HDMI 1.4?


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post #212 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post


Thanks, Sanjay! And the limit on HDMI 1.4?

 

From http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/understanding-difference-hdmi-versions

 

HDMI 1.0 and higher = up to 8 channels of 24-bit/192 kHz audio (PCM)

HDMI 1.1 and higher = support for DVD Audio hi-res format

HDMI 1.2 and higher = up to 8 channels of DSD (SACD) audio

HDMI 1.3 and higher = supported output of up to 8 channels of native Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio for external decoding by AVR.

HDMI 2.0 and higher = up to 32 audio channels & up to 1536 kHz audio sampling rate

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post #213 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

And the limit on HDMI 1.4?
8 channels of LPCM.

However, HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 can pass encoded bitstreams without knowing what's in the bitstream. So if you have, for example, a Dolby Atmos soundtrack with 9 channel beds and various audio objects that have been data packed using Dolby TrueHD, then the player will see the TrueHD flag and let it through.

Those 8-channel or 32-channel limitations are for PCM audio.

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post #214 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


8 channels of LPCM.

However, HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 can pass encoded bitstreams without knowing what's in the bitstream. So if you have, for example, a Dolby Atmos soundtrack with 9 channel beds and various audio objects that have been data packed using Dolby TrueHD, then the player will see the TrueHD flag and let it through.

Those 8-channel or 32-channel limitations are for PCM audio.

 

True.  Though, I think that any AVR or pre/pro that can decode Dobly Atmos would use HDMI 2.0 or higher hardware anyway.  Also, it is likely that any movies that feature a Dolby Atmos soundtrack will likely also be 4K resolution, which means it will require a new player, also using HDMI 2.0 hardware.  If they ever release an audio disc that uses a Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio encoding containing more than 8 channels then you could potentially play that disc with a current HDMI 1.3/1.4 compliant Blu-Ray player, provided your AVR or pre/pro can decode more than 8 channels.  Otherwise, you would need to encode the audio in a compatible format yourself.

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post #215 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

I think that any AVR or pre/pro that can decode Dobly Atmos would use HDMI 2.0 or higher hardware anyway.
But the players don't need to. IF a 7-year-old BD player can transmit an Atmos bitstream, then it will make for easier adoption by consumers.
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

Also, it is likely that any movies that feature a Dolby Atmos soundtrack will likely also be 4K resolution, which means it will require a new player, also using HDMI 2.0 hardware.
I don't see why Dolby would wait for some over-the-horizon 4K disc just to release Atmos, considering that video resolution has no bearing object based audio.

Being a public company, Dolby has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. I'm guessing the price tag for developing Atmos was significant, so they would want a return on investment ASAP. The moment Atmos decoders hit the consumer marketplace, I would be encouraging studios to get their Atmos mixes out on BD, DVD, streaming, cable, satellite, broadcast, etc.

HDMI 2.0 is already in this year's crop of AVRs, so there is no question that it will also be in upcoming object-aware AVRs. My point was simply that it is not required in a player in order to pass an Atmos soundtrack. The channel limitations being discussed have to do with LPCM, not bitstream.

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post #216 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


But the players don't need to. IF a 7-year-old BD player can transmit an Atmos bitstream, then it will make for easier adoption by consumers.
I don't see why Dolby would wait for some over-the-horizon 4K disc just to release Atmos, considering that video resolution has no bearing object based audio.

Being a public company, Dolby has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. I'm guessing the price tag for developing Atmos was significant, so they would want a return on investment ASAP. The moment Atmos decoders hit the consumer marketplace, I would be encouraging studios to get their Atmos mixes out on BD, DVD, streaming, cable, satellite, broadcast, etc.

HDMI 2.0 is already in this year's crop of AVRs, so there is no question that it will also be in upcoming object-aware AVRs. My point was simply that it is not required in a player in order to pass an Atmos soundtrack. The channel limitations being discussed have to do with LPCM, not bitstream.

 

Yeah.  It will likely depend on what distribution methods exist for 4K content when Dolby Atmos compatible AVR's hit the market.  If 4K is still limited to streaming only then perhaps Dolby could persuade the studios to include Atmos soundtracks on Blu-Rays.  However, if a new physical format is on the horizon then CE manufacturers (some of which have close ties to the studios) might push the studios to make it an exclusive feature of the new hardware/media in order to help generate sales of the new products.

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post #217 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 01:54 PM
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Dolby Atmos for the home is probably still in the developmental stages or Dolby would be shouting this to the rooftops. DTS claims their consumer oriented DTS-MDA object format (called DTS-UHD) is all ready for prime time, though I haven't heard any details about its capabilities. SMPTE wants any and all object audio formats to play nicely together (I would assume at least on the speaker mapping/rendering side of the equation), so that may take a bit of doing.

It may be that standard Blu-ray discs would not have the extra bandwidth and storage space to handle a high quality object track (that isn't really dumbed down) plus 1080p video. Advanced UHD media and HDMI 2.0 may be the only way to deliver everything we want.

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post #218 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

If 4K is still limited to streaming only then perhaps Dolby could persuade the studios to include Atmos soundtracks on Blu-Rays.
I'm still not understanding your rationale for delaying the release. Why couldn't Atmos soundtracks be streamed like discrete multi-channel is these days? (This would be in addition to putting lossless versions of those soundtracks on BD.)

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post #219 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

However, if a new physical format is on the horizon then CE manufacturers (some of which have close ties to the studios) might push the studios to make it an exclusive feature of the new hardware/media in order to help generate sales of the new products.

New 4K Bluray replication machine: http://www.cnet.com/news/100gb-discs-point-to-4k-blu-ray/

Ironically, there seem to be an equal number of industry news articles that trumpet the inevitable arrival of 4K Blurays in the near future as those that say 4K Bluray is "dead tech walking".

Although 1080p streaming picture quality is generally very good for traditional small screens, it's still a very noticeable downgrade on a large projection system when compared to Bluray, nevermind the constant optimization of network availability. Given the enormous increase in data for 4K vs. 1080P, especially with full bit rate color and audio, I can't see how 4K would be successful in anything BUT physical media for the near future unless you have a 4K device that needs to buffer for much longer than you'd ever want to wait for the media to begin playing in full resolution.

And to me there is inherent risk in going with streaming-only media as ISPs are constantly looking for ways to throttle bandwidth of high-demand users and manipulate download speeds....or happily charge you extra fees to provide a higher level of service. If I've already purchased a 4k digital download of the movie, for example, how many times must I pay for the bandwidth again and again to stream it to my display? Plus I just don't like the fact of relying on a pay service as a necessary precursor to watch media I already own. Just my two cents, of course.
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post #220 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I'm still not understanding your rationale for delaying the release. Why couldn't Atmos soundtracks be streamed like discrete multi-channel is these days? (This would be in addition to putting lossless versions of those soundtracks on BD.)

I hadn't considered the possibilty that they would do lossy versions of object based audio. I was assuming that it would all be lossless and would be marketed as ultra-premium audio. I figured that when it became available, it would be included only with the highest quality content (either Blu-ray or it's replacement). Once that was done, they could finally upgrade the audio for broadcast and rentals to 7.1 lossless.

However, your idea of doing both lossless and lossy versions of object-based audio for new content would work better. It still allows for a distinction to be made between premium and standard content, while providing incentive to purchase new 4K and 1080p equipment. And, eventually they could stop doing channel-based mixes, as everyone would be expected to have a system that supports object-based audio.
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post #221 of 226 Old 05-28-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

I was assuming that it would all be lossless and would be marketed as ultra-premium audio.
Guess I'm guilty of assuming the opposite, since everything (music and movies, audio and video) has lossy versions delivered to consumers. With the popularity of iTunes and Netflix, I took it for granted that object-based soundtracks would reach their widest audiences in lossy form. Just as folks don't need HDMI 2.0 on their media streamers to watch 'House of Cards' streamed in 4K, likewise they shouldn't need it to bitstream an Atmos soundtrack.

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post #222 of 226 Old 05-29-2014, 02:56 AM
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Sounds like you NEED a tv now so I'd say go for it. It's a good tv so you should be happy with it. I personally don't think that the tv mfrs are going to be completely transparent in what their HDMI 2.0 tv's have in the way of compliance until late this year or next year. Once the chips are readily available I think we'll see more features listed etc instead of "HDMI 2.0 Compliant" which is very vague. There's probably going to be a huge push as it gets closer to "Black Friday (Week)" with all kinds of marketing spin which will probably confuse matters even worse. TV mfrs are going to want to be getting rid of the "HDMI 2.0 Compliant" tv's inventory, or what ever they will be calling them because the true HDMI 2.0 sets (with embedded chipsets) will be coming.

 

Thx m8 im w8ting the TV at 5 of June to arrive and i will provide info if needed..

 

Point is i mailed LG asking them the exact specs of the HDMI-2.0 that the TV has and what abilities as matter color depth etc.. they reply to me to see in the wikipedia the specs of the HDMI-2.0 and that the TV complies with everything!!?? 

 

Well this is too good to be true and i hold my horses but i keep also the answer so in 1-2 years if i plug something and it wont play then they will have it back :-)

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post #223 of 226 Old 05-29-2014, 08:53 AM
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Thx m8 im w8ting the TV at 5 of June to arrive and i will provide info if needed..

Point is i mailed LG asking them the exact specs of the HDMI-2.0 that the TV has and what abilities as matter color depth etc.. they reply to me to see in the wikipedia the specs of the HDMI-2.0 and that the TV complies with everything!!?? 

Well this is too good to be true and i hold my horses but i keep also the answer so in 1-2 years if i plug something and it wont play then they will have it back :-)

Any customer support group that refers a customer back to a Wikipedia article as a reference for their product is not to be trusted. Obviously the support person did not understand your question, or really knows anything about the new LG, and just directed you to a definition of HDMI 2.0. LG, and other mfrs, need to tell the customer, preferably in writing in their product literature, which protocols of the HDMI 2.0 spec their device or devices support.
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post #224 of 226 Old 05-29-2014, 09:36 AM
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Any customer support group that refers a customer back to a Wikipedia article as a reference for their product is not to be trusted. Obviously the support person did not understand your question, or really knows anything about the new LG, and just directed you to a definition of HDMI 2.0. LG, and other mfrs, need to tell the customer, preferably in writing in their product literature, which protocols of the HDMI 2.0 spec their device or devices support.


+1

 

Also, the wiki page doesn't really give you a clear picture of the different combinations of resolution, frame rate, bit depth, and color subsampling supported by HDMI 2.0.  For example, it shows support for 4:2:0, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4, but no indication of what bit depths are available for each of these and at what frame rates.  For 4Kp50/60 8-bit video, HDMI 2.0 supports RGB, 4:2:0, and 4:4:4.  For 4Kp50/60 10-bit & 16-bit video, HDMI 2.0 only supports 4:2:0.  For 4Kp50/60 12-bit video, HDMI 2.0 supports both 4:2:2 and 4:2:0.  Change the frame rate to 24/25/30 and the color space and color sub-sampling support is different.

 

At the very least, they could have referred you to the Overview of HDMI 2.0 in the Knowledge Base on HDMI.org's official website...

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx#119

 

But, even then they would still be misleading you in all likelihood.  I very much doubt that the TV could pass 32 channel audio out to another device and it certainly can't play it as 32 discrete channels.

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post #225 of 226 Old 05-29-2014, 10:45 AM
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The audio portion of HDMI 2.0 is one of those specs that will probably never make it to consumer devices, at least not for quite some time. Sort of like Deep Color and ethernet with 1.4. I'm more concerned with pq/depth, CEC Extensions, etc. But yeah, the smoke and mirrors about HDMI 2.0 Compatibility is going to get worse as we get closer to the holidays. I'm just waiting for the Black Friday (Week) claims just to watch the feeding frenzy.

Oh, and don't forget those HDMI 2.0 cables that will be advertised as well rolleyes.gif On sale at a special price no less.
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post #226 of 226 Old 05-29-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

I very much doubt that the TV could pass 32 channel audio out to another device and it certainly can't play it as 32 discrete channels.

ETRI is currently working with NHK on wavefront synthesis research, and with LG on pre-production development to deliver a consumer version of that technology using both top and bottom of display soundbars. (And I saw another ETRI "design" which included a third soundbar located behind the audience! cool.gif )

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

From the graphics, it's hard to tell the point in the process at which the broadcast|disc|etc bitstream is decoded|rendered into multichannel PCM for subsequent delivery to the 3Daudio soundbar system over HDMI 2.0. biggrin.gif

One option for home playback of a Dolby Atmos movie could be to first render the movie into a (nominal) Hamasaki 22.2 mix (in a manner similar to that in which the 5.1 and 7.1 theatrical mixes are generated from the Atmos object code) and subsequently to play that 22.2 audio back through a SoundWindow. How acceptable might that be to the average home audience? Hard to tell without production hardware to experience.
_

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