HDMI 2.0 - or NOT HDMI 2.0... or HDMI 2.0 "lite"... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-30-2014, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I have a "problem" with what everyone seems to be calling HDMI 2.0 today...

 

It seems as though a lot of manufactuers are stating that their new products are now HDMI 2.0...

 

But their product specs don't bear that out...

 

Like for instance, in a Sony press relase just a few days ago, it stated:

 

All Sony 4K displays currently support the features defined in HDMI 2.0.

 

NOTE: More information regarding the HDMI 2.0 standard, including HDCP 2.2 is available at HDMI.org.

 

However the specs on TVs don't prove to be HDMI 2.0 - but rather HDMI 2.0 "lite".

 

According to HDMI.org:

 

Does HDMI 2.0 support BT.2020 (rec.2020) colorimetry?

 

Yes. HDMI 2.0 includes support for BT.2020 Colorimetry with 10 or more bits of color depth. 

 

Video Formats defined in BT.2020 and supported by HDMI 2.0 specification: 

 

– 2160p, 10/12 bits, 24/25/30Hz, RGB/4:2:2/4:4:4 

– 2160p, 10/12 bits, 50/60Hz, 4:2:0/4:2:2

 

What are the 4K formats supported by HDMI 2.0?

 

 

8bit

10bit

12bit

16bit

4K@24

RGB

4:4:4

RGB

4:4:4

RGB

4:4:4

4:2:2

RGB

4:4:4

4K@25

4K@30

4K@50

RGB

4:4:4

4:2:0

4:2:0

4:2:2

4:2:0

4:2:0

4K@60

BOLD texts are new with HDMI 2.0

 

When, according to the Sony specs on their website - MOST of the above is not supported - on either the 2013 or 2014 models...?

 

The TVs only support 4:2:0 8bit

 

So it is not true HDMI 2.0 - correct?

 

:confused:

 
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post #2 of 23 Old 03-30-2014, 09:16 PM
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This is going to happen more and more often as folks get on the HDMI 2.0 bandwagon. From what I understand, HDMI.org would like the mfrs to list what specifications of the new HDMI 2.0 protocols they offer. Sony apparently is doing this, maybe not so clearly but they are listing it. There aren't any devices yet that have full HDMI 2.0 compliance because I don't believe that the current chipsets used have the bandwidth capabilities. There are other features, like CEC Extensions, that aren't even mentioned by Sony so yeah, HDMI 2.0 Lite would be a good description. HDMI 1.4b still covers quite a lot so it's going to be fine for the current UHD/4k sets. Personally, I wouldn't get too carried away with HDMI 2.0 just yet. With "HDMI 2.0 Lite" starting to appear, they are bound to be compatibility issues if you have devices that don't have the same option sets.
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post #3 of 23 Old 03-30-2014, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I read some of the other posts in this thread...

 

And I now see that the manufacturers are having a hay-day misleading consumers - on purpose.

 

I cannot believe that the HDMI consortium is letting manufactures do this...

 

Either our product is HDMI 2.0 or it is NOT.

 

Using misleading words to confuse consumers is NOT in the HDMI consortium's best interest - and obviously NOT the consumers!

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post #4 of 23 Old 03-31-2014, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

Either our product is HDMI 2.0 or it is NOT.
Ah, but you don't understand...

As long as at least ONE aspect of HDMI 2.0 is in use by a manufacturer, then HDMI 2.0 is in use.

Yeah, you aren't the only one who thinks it is stupid and confusing.

Manufacturers may NOT label their product HDMI 2.0. They are supposed to spell out the HDMI features of their product. Then the consumers are left figuring out what all that junk means.

Yay failure!

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post #5 of 23 Old 03-31-2014, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
 

Either our product is HDMI 2.0 or it is NOT.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post


Ah, but you don't understand...

As long as at least ONE aspect of HDMI 2.0 is in use by a manufacturer, then HDMI 2.0 is in use.

Yeah, you aren't the only one who thinks it is stupid and confusing.

Manufacturers may NOT label their product HDMI 2.0. They are supposed to spell out the HDMI features of their product. Then the consumers are left figuring out what all that junk means.

Yay failure!

 

Oh, I understand - now, after reading a lot of posts in this thread... :p

 

However, 95% of consumers have no idea what is going on.

 

And now I am even more p*ssed than before.

 

These manufacturers know EXACTLY what they are doing - they are confusing the consumer on purpose.

 

Heck one of Sony's main selling points of their first generation 4K TVs was that they would be upgraded to HDMI 2.0 with a free firmware upgrade.

 

Only to find out that the HDMI 2.0 "upgrade" was only to 4:2:0 at 8 bit only at 8.91Gbps - and that's it!

 

Saying that your product is HDMI 2.0 because it can do one thing and NOT the other 10 - is like saying that your product is HDMI 1.4 - but doesn't support 3D.

 

However, they suckered people (who like me would have otherwise have waited until full HDMI 2.0 was implemented) into buying their TVs thinking that they were going to be fully HDMI 2.0.

 

They know exactly what they are doing - it's wrong, and something should be done to change it.

 

Sorry for the rant, truly, but this really gets me going...

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post #6 of 23 Old 03-31-2014, 10:09 AM
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That's the danger of being an early adopter, and it's a shame that the device mfrs are allowed to get away with not be clear enough for the consumer. HDMI 2.0, imo, is an epic failure at this point. I wonder what feature set the new Pioneer HDMI 2.0 receivers have? Until there's full compliance across all consumer devices, problems are going to happen if your tv implements less of HDMI 2.0 than your receiver, blu-ray player, STB does, or vice versa.
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post #7 of 23 Old 04-09-2014, 03:06 PM
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Technically speaking this was an issue with HDMI 1.4 already....lots of devices didn't support deep color, or the ethernet channel, or audio return channel, or 4K, or all the different 3D formats, or....

This makes sense when you think about it, because it really makes no sense for all devices to be forced to support ALL of the possible functionality of HDMI 2.0. Why would a small display need 4K support? Why would a 2D display need to support all the 3D modes? And why should everything need to support 32-channel audio? smile.gif

So really what it boils down to is that if there is a specific feature that you actually care about, you're going to have to go digging into the tech specs.
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post #8 of 23 Old 04-09-2014, 05:09 PM
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There are still devices that don't support Deep Color, ethernet, etc. However, with the buzz that's being generated by the tv mfrs and HDMI.org on what HDMI 2.0 will be capable of, and then advertising that said tv has HDMI 2.0 is outright misleading. And, from what I've seen, some of the HDMI 2.0 updates only cover the gray area between 1.4b and 2.0. Again, misleading technically speaking. I wouldn't have a problem with Sony or Samsung or, god forbid, even Vizio advertising HDMI 2.0 if they listed what the tv's were capable of in terms of 2.0 compliance. CEC Extensions would be a big one for example.
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post #9 of 23 Old 04-09-2014, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Friesen View Post

Technically speaking this was an issue with HDMI 1.4 already....lots of devices didn't support deep color, or the ethernet channel, or audio return channel, or 4K, or all the different 3D formats, or....

This makes sense when you think about it, because it really makes no sense for all devices to be forced to support ALL of the possible functionality of HDMI 2.0. Why would a small display need 4K support? Why would a 2D display need to support all the 3D modes? And why should everything need to support 32-channel audio? smile.gif

So really what it boils down to is that if there is a specific feature that you actually care about, you're going to have to go digging into the tech specs.

 

The point is - you shouldn't have to...

 

It is either HDMI 2.0 - or it is not...

 

Not - well it does 1 thing listed in the HDMI 2.0 specs - but not the other 9...

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post #10 of 23 Old 04-09-2014, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

The point is - you shouldn't have to...

It is either HDMI 2.0 - or it is not...

Not - well it does 1 thing listed in the HDMI 2.0 specs - but not the other 9...

....and that's the problem right there. As long as 1 of the HDMI specs are offered, even if it's in the overlap area between 1.4b and 2.0, the mfrs are allowed to call it HDMI 2.0.
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post #11 of 23 Old 04-10-2014, 07:38 AM
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The point is - you shouldn't have to...

It is either HDMI 2.0 - or it is not...

Not - well it does 1 thing listed in the HDMI 2.0 specs - but not the other 9...

Think about that for a second. A 4K computer monitor that wants to support HDMI 2.0 should be required to support downmixing 32-channel sound?
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post #12 of 23 Old 04-10-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Think about that for a second. A 4K computer monitor that wants to support HDMI 2.0 should be required to support downmixing 32-channel sound?

 

YES!

 

Either it is HDMI 2.0 or it is not!

 

If there is such a problem with the manufacturer's meeting ALL of the specs - then there should be varying HDMI 2.0 designations - 2.01, 2.02, 2.03, etc...

 

This entire debacle is extremely confusing to the average, and even the above-average, consumer.

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post #13 of 23 Old 04-10-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

YES!

Either it is HDMI 2.0 or it is not!

If there is such a problem with the manufacturer's meeting ALL of the specs - then there should be varying HDMI 2.0 designations - 2.01, 2.02, 2.03, etc...

This entire debacle is extremely confusing to the average, and even the above-average, consumer.

Sorry, I think that's ludicrous. HDMI covers a huge range of features (audio, visual, ethernet, CEC, etc.) and it makes zero sense to say that all HDMI devices must support all HDMI functionality.

And it's never been that way, so why would it change now? HDMI 1.0 allowed 1080p video, but there were lots of 720p TVs that couldn't accept a 1080p signal.
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post #14 of 23 Old 04-11-2014, 10:03 AM
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The whole point of this is that the consumer should be able to decide if what is being called HDMI 2.0 has the feature-set that they want, or thinks they will need. Just calling in HDMI 2.0 implies, to the average consumer, the full compliance spectrum, whether those options are currently available on consumer devices or not. Just list what features of HDMI 2.0 the particular device has and let the consumer decide if that's what they want now or not.
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post #15 of 23 Old 04-13-2014, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chris Friesen View Post


Sorry, I think that's ludicrous. HDMI covers a huge range of features (audio, visual, ethernet, CEC, etc.) and it makes zero sense to say that all HDMI devices must support all HDMI functionality.

And it's never been that way, so why would it change now? HDMI 1.0 allowed 1080p video, but there were lots of 720p TVs that couldn't accept a 1080p signal.

 

You are entitled to your opinion - I am entitled to mine... :p

 

However, I can guarantee you - many more CONSUMERS agree with me...

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post #16 of 23 Old 04-13-2014, 09:40 PM
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+1. The consumers are being dazzled with what HDMI 2.0 will be able to offer in the future, which is coming very soon, but is not quite here yet. Sony seems to be the only mfr who has listed what their HDMI 2.0 firmware upgrade covers, which was only that gray area between 1.4b and 2.0, but at least they listed it.
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post #17 of 23 Old 07-08-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by HDTVAV
Either our product is HDMI 2.0 or it is NOT.





Quote: Originally Posted by AV_Integrated


Ah, but you don't understand...

As long as at least ONE aspect of HDMI 2.0 is in use by a manufacturer, then HDMI 2.0 is in use.

Yeah, you aren't the only one who thinks it is stupid and confusing.

Manufacturers may NOT label their product HDMI 2.0. They are supposed to spell out the HDMI features of their product. Then the consumers are left figuring out what all that junk means.

Yay failure!


Oh, I understand - now, after reading a lot of posts in this thread...

However, 95% of consumers have no idea what is going on.

And now I am even more p*ssed than before.

These manufacturers know EXACTLY what they are doing - they are confusing the consumer on purpose.

Heck one of Sony's main selling points of their first generation 4K TVs was that they would be upgraded to HDMI 2.0 with a free firmware upgrade.

Only to find out that the HDMI 2.0 "upgrade" was only to 4:2:0 at 8 bit only at 8.91Gbps - and that's it!

Saying that your product is HDMI 2.0 because it can do one thing and NOT the other 10 - is like saying that your product is HDMI 1.4 - but doesn't support 3D.

However, they suckered people (who like me would have otherwise have waited until full HDMI 2.0 was implemented) into buying their TVs thinking that they were going to be fully HDMI 2.0.

They know exactly what they are doing - it's wrong, and something should be done to change it.

Sorry for the rant, truly, but this really gets me going...

AND now I'm in the same wagon, I just purchased this TV (65X900A) on the recent beach camera deal and waiting for it to arrive I stumble upon this thread and now I'm pissed.

OK let me ask something maybe already answered somewhere else but this forum seems to be the only one active on these topics.

Prologue:
At first this Sony got a tech to every home and inserted a chip to every TV so ppl could get "hdmi 2.0" compatibility with the X10 or the previous model I don't remember exactly.
Then it was a simple firmware update and you could get the same results but as stated here for 60hz only 4.2.0 color sampling.

Is there a possibility in the future for something else being updated or the chipsets inside this expensive devices are just finished with 8-10gb/s

Letting that aside what can be said about the competition (Samsung) are they supporting a broader range of hdmi 2.0 capabilities???
Or maybe the new 65X900B, do those???

Right now I'm waiting to hook up this tv to my nvidia card with no hdmi 2 just what I believe is the same method that uses sony to get 60hz ok 4K but using hdmi 1.4 (4.2.0)
and I still don't get how would that work the TV on it's end saying 4K 60HZ HDMI 2 and Nvidia using a "trick" to send that same info using HDMI 1.4

BTW wish hdmi cable should I get to trick myself into believing 4K 60HZ into my eyes???

ps:I won't even start on the HEVC codec.
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post #18 of 23 Old 07-08-2014, 08:38 PM
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First, any certified high speed hdmi cable will work just fine for HDMI 2.0 when it becomes readily available. You don't need any other type of cable, regardless of marketing or the cable mfr says. Certified for the length of cable you buy is the key.

I don't know anything about the Sony tech inserting a chip into the tv's to make them compatible for HDMI 2.0. The chips are just starting to become available. LG, for example is offering a board swap for their newer tv's when they become available that will upgrade the tv to HDMI 2.0 compatibility. It's a complete board swap though, not a chip insertion. What Sony has done is give themselves some wiggle room with their new boards so that a firmware update with give you what they call HDMI 2.0 compatibility by clocking up the bandwidth a bit, but that's been covered already with the above posts.

Some of the new Samsungs have what they call the One Connect box which is an external, STB-like box, that costs about $400 extra. It's supposed to have HDMI 2.0 compatibility and other features that can be updated via firmware updates. I think their newer panels are also 10-bit but I don't know for sure.

An HDMI 2.0 device (if there truly is one yet) will just fall back to HDMI 1.4 if the rest of the chain (devices) are not HDMI 2.0 because of backwards compatibility. No tricks.

Personally, if you don't "need" a new tv now, I'd wait till next years because the chipsets should be available from the various mfrs by then with a little more disclosure on which HDMI 2.0 protocols their sets contain.
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post #19 of 23 Old 07-08-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
First, any certified high speed hdmi cable will work just fine for HDMI 2.0 when it becomes readily available. You don't need any other type of cable, regardless of marketing or the cable mfr says. Certified for the length of cable you buy is the key.

I don't know anything about the Sony tech inserting a chip into the tv's to make them compatible for HDMI 2.0. The chips are just starting to become available. LG, for example is offering a board swap for their newer tv's when they become available that will upgrade the tv to HDMI 2.0 compatibility. It's a complete board swap though, not a chip insertion. What Sony has done is give themselves some wiggle room with their new boards so that a firmware update with give you what they call HDMI 2.0 compatibility by clocking up the bandwidth a bit, but that's been covered already with the above posts.

Some of the new Samsungs have what they call the One Connect box which is an external, STB-like box, that costs about $400 extra. It's supposed to have HDMI 2.0 compatibility and other features that can be updated via firmware updates. I think their newer panels are also 10-bit but I don't know for sure.

An HDMI 2.0 device (if there truly is one yet) will just fall back to HDMI 1.4 if the rest of the chain (devices) are not HDMI 2.0 because of backwards compatibility. No tricks.

Personally, if you don't "need" a new tv now, I'd wait till next years because the chipsets should be available from the various mfrs by then with a little more disclosure on which HDMI 2.0 protocols their sets contain.
First thanks for your quick reply but the thing is as I told before the TV is already on it's way
So for now I'll have to stick with a certified hdmi 1.4 (what's with all the 1.4a and 1.4b???)the one that comes with TVs are no good I suppose..

I'm not planning on purchasing any external boxes either, Sony announced one to give the ability to decode HEVC for netflix and amazon streams.
Even with full hdmi 2.0 it would be the same TV with the same gap in bandwidth so.

And yes Sony sent techs to ppl houses for the early adopters so I figured everything for hdmi2 was covered but I was wrong.

At least the only hope is that It's not confirmed anywhere a TV with full hdmi 2.0 capabilities right?
Maybe they release something in the near future and I don't have to spend this much so soon ***crossing fingers**
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post #20 of 23 Old 07-09-2014, 08:33 AM
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The current HDMI spec is 1.4b. There really isn't much difference between 1.4,1.4a, and 1.4b so you're ok, and again, any certified high speed HMDI cable will work just fine. If you're curious as to the actual differences between the sub-versions, go to the hdmi.org website.

Full HDMI 2.0 support is dependent, in part, on the panel. I don't know of any current tv's that have 12-bit/16-bit panels, which would be needed to take full advantage of HDMI 2.0. There are other aspects of HDMI 2.0 that are a long ways off as far as the consumer goes, multi-stream audio, dual-view, 21:9 aspect, etc. I think most folks are concerned with 4k@50/60 and CEC extensions. Bandwidth will have to hit 18Gbps with an 8-, 10- or 12 bit panel to get 4k/60 with 4:2:2 (or 4:4:4 with an 8-bit panel).

What needs to have happen is for the mfrs to list which protocols of HDMI 2.0 their tv's will ship with and what the upgrade pathway, if any, they will have, whether it be a board swap, and external STB, or some software/firmware manipulation.

You have a nice tv coming so enjoy it. Besides, unless you have a blu-ray player or receiver that has a compatible HDMI 2.0, your system will fall back to 1.4b.
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post #21 of 23 Old 07-09-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
The current HDMI spec is 1.4b. There really isn't much difference between 1.4,1.4a, and 1.4b so you're ok, and again, any certified high speed HMDI cable will work just fine. If you're curious as to the actual differences between the sub-versions, go to the hdmi.org website.

Full HDMI 2.0 support is dependent, in part, on the panel. I don't know of any current tv's that have 12-bit/16-bit panels, which would be needed to take full advantage of HDMI 2.0. There are other aspects of HDMI 2.0 that are a long ways off as far as the consumer goes, multi-stream audio, dual-view, 21:9 aspect, etc. I think most folks are concerned with 4k@50/60 and CEC extensions. Bandwidth will have to hit 18Gbps with an 8-, 10- or 12 bit panel to get 4k/60 with 4:2:2 (or 4:4:4 with an 8-bit panel).

What needs to have happen is for the mfrs to list which protocols of HDMI 2.0 their tv's will ship with and what the upgrade pathway, if any, they will have, whether it be a board swap, and external STB, or some software/firmware manipulation.

You have a nice tv coming so enjoy it. Besides, unless you have a blu-ray player or receiver that has a compatible HDMI 2.0, your system will fall back to 1.4b.
You are right, I don't think even the new nvidia series coming this year will include hdmi 2 and the method to achieve 4K at 60hz with DP is needs to be present in both ends and I don't think this TV supports MST as the new Asus monitor does right???
Anyways I'm not planning on gaming on the TV but it's still nice to be able to have the best connection available and only time will tell now

I went with your advice and got this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XM1WE0/...332200_TE_item
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post #22 of 23 Old 07-28-2014, 03:40 AM
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So I went into costco yesterday and saw a sticker saying 4k at 60hz across the hdmi ports of a new LG 4k Tv.
http://www.costco.com/LG-65%22-Class...100123631.html

I at first assumed this was the hdmi 1.4 4:2:0 60hz, but i looked at the manual here and its says 60hz RGB 4:4:4 on a specific hdmi port. (page 23)

Is it possible this tv actually supports the higher bandwith spec of hdmi 2.0? And a follow up would be, if so, are there currently any devices that could output such a signal?
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post #23 of 23 Old 07-28-2014, 01:24 PM
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It has a 10-bit panel so it sounds like they're starting to use their own 2.0 chipsets (or a purchasing them from someone else). 4:2:2 would probably be better with a 12-bit panel but...... Those resolutions require the higher bandwidth of 17.82 Gbps so I can sort of see why they only have one port capable of that. However, some blu-ray players and receivers are just starting to come out with 2.0 chipsets that will hopefully have that bandwidth to match.
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