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post #1 of 22 Old 07-17-2014, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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HDMI and HDCP compatibility query

Hi, I recently posted this in the wrong area of the forum and they suggested I move it here for better assistance.

I'm confused with HDMI and its security protocol "HDCP". I've read things on HDCP but it just doesn't help me, so here goes... if anyone can help!

I have a new DVR (digital video recorder) dedicated for CCTV use, and it has a HDMI output for a display. I only recently found out from the manufacturer that the port does not support HDCP / not compliant. Anyway, I tried connecting the DVR to my ASUS LCD monitor (for my PC) - which has DVI-D and VGA ports - but it wouldn't work. The cable I used was brand new and is HDMI to DVI-D. Please see screenshot below of what happens - pink colour, screen flicks on and off, and output is fuzzy. By the way, I used the Input Select mode on my LCD to flick between VGA and DVI mode. At first I thought the HDMI-DVI-D cable was faulty, but I tested it by connecting the LCD straight to my PC's graphics card (instead of VGA, I used the HDMI-DVI-D cable) and it was working perfectly! Cable not faulty.
So I searched for my LCD monitor's manual and it says the "DVI-D port with HDCP support".

Now, I read about the "handshake" that takes place under normal circumstances between compliant devices, but if one end doesn't support HDCP (in my case, the DVR) and the other side does (in my case, the LCD monitor), what happens? Is that why I am having problems? If so, what can I do? The DVR is new, but I've had my LCD for a few years (although I don't think my LCD is to blame).

Worst case scenario, I *could* use the VGA port of my LCD instead of the DVI-D I suppose (I can purchase a 'HDMI to VGA converter') but reluctant to spend the money if it's not going to work! But it's probably worth noting that I will be using a HDMI extender (via CAT-6) because the DVR will be located on the other side of the house to that of the LCD monitor (around 20m). Have already purchased the gear as I was assuming the HDMI connection to my monitor would be ok. Am I likely to have issues with the extender if I go HDMI to VGA conversion?
HDMI extender (already purchased) link: http://www.cablechick.com.au/cables/...40-metres.html
HDMI to VGA converter link: http://www.cablechick.com.au/cables/...converter.html

Thanks in advance!!!
Jason.
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post #2 of 22 Old 07-17-2014, 11:58 AM
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Do you have another display, like a normal television, you can hook the DVR up to? What output resolution does the DVR push out? Is the monitor compatible with the resolution that the DVR is putting out? It may be pushing video out over HDMI in the component video color space while the monitor may only be able to handle video in the RGB color space for HDMI.

I'm feeling, pretty strongly, that you have a resolution and/or color space issue, not a HDCP issue with this connection.

Most modern televisions automatically detect the RGB or component color space with HDMI video, but a monitor that's a few years old would not necessarily do so, and since computers operate in the RGB color space, it would be more likely for the monitor to be fixed to that color space. While the DVR may be fixed to the component color space.

Hooking up to a 'normal' television may answer the question.

I am not sure about the extenders or how they would impact the connections. I would expect the HDMI to VGA converter may work alright, but you typically take a hit on video quality when you make this conversion.

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post #3 of 22 Old 07-17-2014, 01:46 PM
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Aaargh J


HDCP – is not going to be the issue as the HDMI Output onthe Source is not applying HDCP to the signal.


HD Video vs. PC Video (the format wars) – you need to ensurethe DVR is Outputting a signal the Monitor supports, many Monitors will onlysupport ‘PC’ format signals such as VGA, XGA, WXGA on their Digital (HDMI/DVI)or Analog HD15 (VGA) Input ports!


If the DVR is Outputting an HD ‘Video’ Format (1080p, 1080i,720p…) the Monitor may not support that signal!


A link to the User Manual for the DVR and Monitor would behandy!


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post #4 of 22 Old 07-18-2014, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys. Thanks for the replies.
Sounds promising that it may not be HDCP related, but difficult for us to prove anything, at this point in time.

Joe: As requested, here are links to the manuals, but because I only had them as PDFs on my PC, I uploaded them to zippyshare so they can be publicly accessed.
http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/77249792/file.html
http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/30695916/file.html
I don't think the DVR manual will be of any help and is difficult to understand, even though it's in English, lol.
Oh, by the way, my ASUS LCD monitor's model number is VW224U.

Yes, I have tried connecting the DVR to a normal television (Samsung LCD), using HDMI-HDMI cable, it came up with "Mode not supported", but I think I haven't changed the DVR's resolution though. Perhaps I should try it again, but it's painful to move all the equipment over to the TV... maybe I'll do so this weekend. If I change the DVR output resolution, would I need to do anything on the TV itself, or should it just work?

The DVR provides the following output resolutions (I tried each and every one of them)...

1024 x 768 *
1280 x 720 *
1280 x 1024 *
1440 x 900 *
1920 x 1080

* my monitor should be able to handle this resolution.

The DVR itself also has a VGA output, but I am already using it with a 10-inch VGA LCD (which is actually a headrest LCD monitor for vehicles) - yes, I'm going to have 2 separate displays for my DVR. It also has a BNC output, but it's pretty nasty. The DVR manufacturer claims VGA/HMDI/BNC can all be used at the same time. Having said that, I have already tried disconnecting the VGA so that only the HDMI port was in use, but this made no difference.

Thanks! Jason.

Last edited by jst3712; 07-18-2014 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Corrected monitor model number.
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post #5 of 22 Old 07-18-2014, 09:31 AM
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No mention of the HDMI Out port in the DVR Manual!


With VGA connected and working is there an option to 'enable' HDMI Out?


Have you tried using the DVR with the Asus via the VGA port?


You are 'toggling' the Asus to the DVI Input


Ensure the DVR is Outputting 1024x768 @ 60Hz not 50Hz.


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post #6 of 22 Old 07-18-2014, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
No mention of the HDMI Out port in the DVR Manual!


With VGA connected and working is there an option to 'enable' HDMI Out?


Have you tried using the DVR with the Asus via the VGA port?


You are 'toggling' the Asus to the DVI Input


Ensure the DVR is Outputting 1024x768 @ 60Hz not 50Hz.


Joe
Hi Joe,
No, no mention of HDMI in the manual - yes, it's strange - but the model in the manual is not the same as mine. I'll ask the manufacturer if there is one for my particular model, but they did mention to me the HDMI output is definitely digital, non HDCP, and can be used at the same time as VGA and BNC (as advertised).

I have hooked up the DVR straight to the Asus LCD monitor like you asked me to, VGA to VGA, and works great.

No, there is no option to enable/disable HDMI that I can see, but it must be enabled if I am getting the pink (blinking on and off) screen - see the attached photo.

There is no way of me telling what hertz (50/60Hz) the DVR is outputting - I'll have to ask the manufacturer.

And what do you mean by "You are 'toggling' the Asus to the DVI Input"? I press the Input Select button on my monitor to switch between VGA and DVI, yes. I want to use my Asus for PC and CCTV monitoring use at the flick on the switch.

Now I'm going to try the normal TV again via HDMI to HDMI and try different resolution output settings on my DVR.... will get back to you. The manufacturer also wants me to re-check this.


*****UPDATE**** The HDMI output of the DVR is working fine, as I managed to get a picture on my TV via HDMI to HDMI cable... but I had to have the DVR's output resolution set to 1280 x 720 (only). All other available resolutions did not work. So now we can rule out the DVR. If it helps, the HDMI to HDMI cable that I used was a 'High Speed with Ethernet' type.
Now it boils down to the HDMI to DVI-D cable I recently purchased, and the Asus LCD monitor. Here is the link to the HDMI to DVI-D cable I purchased that I wanted to use between my DVR and Asus monitor in the first place: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3M-HDMI-t.../330892951529?
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post #7 of 22 Old 07-19-2014, 07:38 AM
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I suspect your DVR is Outputting 1280x720p @ 50Hz and the ASUS only supports 60Hz.

The HDMI>DVI cable looks pretty standard.

Is there an option to stick the DVR in 'NTSC' mode - not strictly the correct terminology but often the only way to toggle these devices between 50Hz and 60Hz.

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post #8 of 22 Old 07-19-2014, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
I suspect your DVR is Outputting 1280x720p @ 50Hz and the ASUS only supports 60Hz.

The HDMI>DVI cable looks pretty standard.

Is there an option to stick the DVR in 'NTSC' mode - not strictly the correct terminology but often the only way to toggle these devices between 50Hz and 60Hz.

Joe
Hi Joe.
About the 50/60Hz... I didn't think that would make a difference when using HDMI? My DVR has a BNC output (which I will not be using due to poor quality output), and I could understand the whole 50/60Hz thing if I was using BNC (analog), but HDMI is digital...? Maybe I'm not understanding something.
I can't see anywhere an option to change the output refresh rate

If it only outputs 50Hz and the monitor only supports 60Hz, would that mean I'd have to find a monitor that supports both 50 and 60Hz? I wonder if these exist here in Australia.... hmm... I'd have to look into that, but would be sad if I'd have to fork out a couple of hundred dollars for a new monitor for this application.
I'll post back with all the answers from the manufacturer once I hear back from them.

Jason
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post #9 of 22 Old 07-20-2014, 03:30 AM
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50/60Hz is a def possibility with HDMI - here in Scotland all HD Broadcasts from SKY, Freesat, Virgin etc are 1080i @ 50 Hz, which was a big issue in the early days of Flat panel TV's as most only supported 60Hz. In the end EICTA (the governing body for Euro broadcasters) set out the 'HD Ready' TV standard which stipulated support for 50Hz.

Many 'Computer' monitors don't support 50Hz - no need to as PC's don't tend to Output at 50Hz.

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post #10 of 22 Old 07-20-2014, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
50/60Hz is a def possibility with HDMI - here in Scotland all HD Broadcasts from SKY, Freesat, Virgin etc are 1080i @ 50 Hz, which was a big issue in the early days of Flat panel TV's as most only supported 60Hz. In the end EICTA (the governing body for Euro broadcasters) set out the 'HD Ready' TV standard which stipulated support for 50Hz.

Many 'Computer' monitors don't support 50Hz - no need to as PC's don't tend to Output at 50Hz.

Joe
Interesting. Well, I'll see what the DVR manufacturer says. Fingers crossed they say 60Hz, and that it's not hertz related.
Might be a couple of days or so till I receive a reply from them...
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post #11 of 22 Old 07-23-2014, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Joe,

The manufacturer got back to me and said that "there is no data about the refresh rate". So they either don't know, or they don't want to tell me.
Instead of the HDMI > DVI-D cable, I am going to try a standard HDMI > HDMI cable and attach a HDMI > DVI-D adapter on one end, to prove if it's not cable related. Will get back to you after I try it this weekend.

Should that fail, do you think I would have luck with any of the following?
  • HDMI to VGA converter and use the VGA input on my monitor (still the issue with Hz?).
  • Source a HDMI Converter that is capable of converting 50Hz to 60Hz.

Please keep in mind that the DVR will be somewhat 20 meters away from the monitor, so I'm using a HDMI Extender via Cat6 to extend the HDMI connection. I will be using this regardless of what device I hookup between it and the monitor. And no, this extender has nothing to do with the issue as it's still in the box, brand new.


Your input please...



Thanks!
Jason.
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post #12 of 22 Old 07-23-2014, 10:37 AM
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The thing is, that you are under the assumption that 50hz/60hz is definitely the issue, and that it isn't something else causing the problem.

I'm not sure how color space issues would manifest, but if the DVR is component color space and the monitor only works properly with RGB color space, then that would be another potential cause (I believe).

You keep mentioning VGA... Doesn't the DVR and the monitor have VGA? Why not use VGA over cat-5 extenders? Return the HDMI extender for a native solution that you know works? It's pretty inexpensive for that type of extender.

HDMI to VGA converters can be of very poor quality and there's no way of really knowing ahead of time unless there are a fair number of reviews of the product you are buying.

VGA extenders are similarly priced to the converter, and will provide the best image from what it sounds like...
http://www.cablechick.com.au/?search...rch_submit.y=0

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post #13 of 22 Old 07-23-2014, 11:52 AM
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Color Space - it doesn't look like YCbCr (digital Component) vs. digital RGB in the pic but difficult to rule out 100%


Agreed re sticking with VGA if its working as with no support re what the HDMI port is outputting from the supplier its tricky to work out how to resolve the problem.


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post #14 of 22 Old 07-24-2014, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the VGA... this is the situation...
Yes, the DVR has VGA output, and also HDMI. The VGA is already being used by a second, smaller display, which has a VGA input only. So, I am left with the HDMI to connect to my LCD PC monitor in the study (to be my main screen).

So there I was, thinking that I could use the HDMI output of the DVR and simply extend it across CAT6 (20 meters approx.) and Tada... HDMI to DVI-D and into my main display in the study. I already purchased the CAT6 extender, but not yet any converters.

I ain't giving up yet guys! I am willing to try one of the converters and risk the "potential" reduction in picture quality, but, not sure if they would even work. I guess I could return them, but a hassle. This is really upsetting. What else can I do? Is there a monitor out there that would solve my problem?
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post #15 of 22 Old 07-24-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jst3712 View Post
Regarding the VGA... this is the situation...
Yes, the DVR has VGA output, and also HDMI. The VGA is already being used by a second, smaller display, which has a VGA input only. So, I am left with the HDMI to connect to my LCD PC monitor in the study (to be my main screen).

So there I was, thinking that I could use the HDMI output of the DVR and simply extend it across CAT6 (20 meters approx.) and Tada... HDMI to DVI-D and into my main display in the study. I already purchased the CAT6 extender, but not yet any converters.

I ain't giving up yet guys! I am willing to try one of the converters and risk the "potential" reduction in picture quality, but, not sure if they would even work. I guess I could return them, but a hassle. This is really upsetting. What else can I do? Is there a monitor out there that would solve my problem?
I would think most new monitors would work fine. If you can buy locally, or even take your DVR into a store, you could check out different monitors with it and know before you buy. Televisions often have far more input capability than monitors do because of the wide range of sources connected to them, especially video sources. And, a DVR is much more like a video source than a computer source. So, even using a small 1080p TV may make more sense.

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post #16 of 22 Old 07-25-2014, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I would think most new monitors would work fine. If you can buy locally, or even take your DVR into a store, you could check out different monitors with it and know before you buy. Televisions often have far more input capability than monitors do because of the wide range of sources connected to them, especially video sources. And, a DVR is much more like a video source than a computer source. So, even using a small 1080p TV may make more sense.
Cool, I'll definitely take that into consideration, thanks! And yes, it makes more sense.
I think the cost involved with that will be worth it in the end, considering I already have all the bits and pieces I need to hook up my DVR via HDMI (CAT6 cables, HDMI over CAT6 extender, wall plate & socket, etc.). Otherwise I'd go through a lot of trouble by opting for the VGA solution (VGA splitter, VGA cables, VGA over CAT5e balun, stuck with some of the HDMI parts, possible loss in picture quality, etc.).

I'll just give you guys an update on the cable. Today I purchased a 'HDMI to DVI-D adapter' to plug into one end of a standard HDMI cable, and I experienced the same issue as I did with the 'HDMI to DVI-D cable' (fixed), so it's definitely not the cable/connector. I just needed to prove that to myself. I'll return the adapter now as I won't be needing it.

I guess I would like to get your opinion also on HDMI over CAT5e baluns. How good are they? I will be using 2x 20m CAT6 (compatible with the balun). I've been told that, because it's digital, there shouldn't be too much loss in picture quality over that distance.

Thanks.
Jason.
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post #17 of 22 Old 07-25-2014, 10:33 AM
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Cool, I'll definitely take that into consideration, thanks! And yes, it makes more sense.
I think the cost involved with that will be worth it in the end, considering I already have all the bits and pieces I need to hook up my DVR via HDMI (CAT6 cables, HDMI over CAT6 extender, wall plate & socket, etc.). Otherwise I'd go through a lot of trouble by opting for the VGA solution (VGA splitter, VGA cables, VGA over CAT5e balun, stuck with some of the HDMI parts, possible loss in picture quality, etc.).

I'll just give you guys an update on the cable. Today I purchased a 'HDMI to DVI-D adapter' to plug into one end of a standard HDMI cable, and I experienced the same issue as I did with the 'HDMI to DVI-D cable' (fixed), so it's definitely not the cable/connector. I just needed to prove that to myself. I'll return the adapter now as I won't be needing it.

I guess I would like to get your opinion also on HDMI over CAT5e baluns. How good are they? I will be using 2x 20m CAT6 (compatible with the balun). I've been told that, because it's digital, there shouldn't be too much loss in picture quality over that distance.

Thanks.
Jason.
There should be zero quality drop. As an all digital signal, the zeroes and ones should look perfect.

As for the baluns, I think Joe and I, and most others would agree that HD-BaseT is the most solid way on the market to deliver HDMI over cat cabling.

HDBT is rather pricey. In the USA, about $200 starting price for a transmitter/receiver set.

My experience with dual cable cat extenders has been VERY hit and miss. I've used different models from several different companies, and results have been mediocre to poor at higher resolutions, but excellent at lower resolutions (1080i/720p). I have NOT used them with computers, so I have no comment there. I have had very poor results with 1080p content.

I regularly use low-end and high-end HDBT solutions, and they all work perfectly. The cheaper solutions are more prone to complete product failure (bad power supplies, internal power failures), but when they work, they perform identically to the high-end solutions.

The product you linked in your first post is pretty 'cheap' overall, but all I can do is wonder if it will work. It may work great, it may not. If you keep the resolution to 1280x720, then I would expect it to be just fine.

But maybe not.

Sorry, nobody can really say for sure, so you should check out all the reviews on the product that you can, and make sure there is a good return policy.

Here's some more 'local' reading which may direct you to some Australian HDBT solutions:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2156947

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post #18 of 22 Old 07-25-2014, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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There should be zero quality drop. As an all digital signal, the zeroes and ones should look perfect.

As for the baluns, I think Joe and I, and most others would agree that HD-BaseT is the most solid way on the market to deliver HDMI over cat cabling.

HDBT is rather pricey. In the USA, about $200 starting price for a transmitter/receiver set.

My experience with dual cable cat extenders has been VERY hit and miss. I've used different models from several different companies, and results have been mediocre to poor at higher resolutions, but excellent at lower resolutions (1080i/720p). I have NOT used them with computers, so I have no comment there. I have had very poor results with 1080p content.

I regularly use low-end and high-end HDBT solutions, and they all work perfectly. The cheaper solutions are more prone to complete product failure (bad power supplies, internal power failures), but when they work, they perform identically to the high-end solutions.

The product you linked in your first post is pretty 'cheap' overall, but all I can do is wonder if it will work. It may work great, it may not. If you keep the resolution to 1280x720, then I would expect it to be just fine.

But maybe not.

Sorry, nobody can really say for sure, so you should check out all the reviews on the product that you can, and make sure there is a good return policy.

Here's some more 'local' reading which may direct you to some Australian HDBT solutions:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2156947
Cool. Thank you so much. I will give my extender a go, but can't do anything until I get the new TV! I'm looking at getting a 22 inch Samsung FHD LED one! I'm actually quite excited, although, being a TV, it's not going to have a mode select button on the front for "quick" toggling (like PC monitors do), rather, these days, most of them have like a menu where you have to move arrows up and down and select what input... slow, but, oh well. I wanted quick toggling between PC and DVR image. Can't have everything hey?!
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post #19 of 22 Old 07-26-2014, 04:02 PM
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'This is really upsetting. What else can I do?' - ditch the DVR and go get a unit with a set of known specifications


What else is the 'Study' Display going to be used for/with?


Whilst TV's usually have a whole raft of Inputs and matching Input selections you can normally 'disable' unused Inputs in the User Menu so it is possible to only have to toggle between two options if you are only using two Input sockets.


HDMI (Digital) vs. VGA (Analog) don't get fooled into thinking one is hugely different to the other - they can both be good and bad!


CAT Extenders - you need to get the system working on an HDMI cable before you venture into Extender territory.


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post #20 of 22 Old 07-26-2014, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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'This is really upsetting. What else can I do?' - ditch the DVR and go get a unit with a set of known specifications

What else is the 'Study' Display going to be used for/with?
>>> The study display will be connected to my PC and DVR. I want to be able to toggle between the two when I want. Since I am now purchasing a TV with 2x HMDI inputs, I will connect both the DVR and PC via HDMI. No, I am not going to ditch the DVR!!! Easily said than done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
Whilst TV's usually have a whole raft of Inputs and matching Input selections you can normally 'disable' unused Inputs in the User Menu so it is possible to only have to toggle between two options if you are only using two Input sockets.
>>> I didn't know that. Hopefully the one I am getting will have this option. No biggy if it doesn't though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
CAT Extenders - you need to get the system working on an HDMI cable before you venture into Extender territory.
>>> Definitely! No point hooking up CAT extender if I don't know if a HDMI cable on its own will work or not.

Thanks for your help Joe. I should be ok from this point. Fingers crossed the TV will solve my problem - being 22" (same as my current PC monitor), nobody will be able to tell the difference, and I'll be able to watch full HD on it now - Bonus! I was thinking about replacing my Asus PC monitor soon anyway. It would have been nice though, to know exactly why my monitor didn't like the signal from the DVR, but there'd be a lot more troubleshooting, time, and possibly costs involved. "Ditching" my new DVR is not exactly something I want to do. In fact, I've done a lot of research on DVRs (with cameras included as a package), and this one had some of best features. No it's not perfect, but what is...?
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post #21 of 22 Old 07-26-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you!

Thank you very much for your assistance Joe and AV_Integrated. Appreciate it.
As soon as I receive my 22" TV, I will test everything and let you know how I went. I am 99% positive that all will be good.
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post #22 of 22 Old 08-01-2014, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Received the 22" LCD TV (1080p Full HD) the other day, connected it up to the DVR using a standard HDMI cable, and all good!
So I'll use the TV as a TV, PC monitor, and main surveillance monitor for the DVR - "3 in 1".

I am even able to set my DVR's resolution to the highest (1920 x 1080) with this TV, and the picture is perfect.
My HDMI over CAT5e extender works a treat as well, even over 20 meters.

http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/t...UA22H5000AWXXY

Thanks again for your help.

Jason.
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