HDMI cables that support 4K@60Hz, 4:4:4 chroma, and Deep Color? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 12:14 AM
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Cable manufacturers/resellers slapping HDMI Version numbers and claiming all manner of 'compliance' at this or that speed have created this mess.

Before 5th Oct cables were either High Speed or Standard - nothing else, any other claims were down to some 'in-house' testing or not reading HDMI.org's labelling guidelines.


So now we have Premium High Speed, High Speed and Standard - though you can guarantee there are folk already creating 'Premium High Speed 2.0a' labels and spurious 'Spec Sheets'.


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post #62 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
That's one of the misleading statements that cable mfrs purposely do. Sure, passive HDMI 1.4 calibration is good up to 25' but you need to look carefully to see if the length of cable you are purchasing has been certified for that particular length. HDMI 1.4 is rated for 10.2Gbps. 18.2Gbps is just starting to get tested but just because the cable can transmit at 18.2Gbps doesn't necessarily mean that it can meet all of the HDMI specs at that bandwidth. Until HDMI.org approves a certification procedure and organization, cable mfrs can still play loose with what they state. I'm waiting for a cable that comes with a Certificate that "x" length meets all HDMI 2.0 hardware specification at 18.2Gbps.
Right, many of us need 25' cables that meet HDMI 2.0 compliance of 18.2Gbps NOW and so it is a matter of trial and error. It seems like no matter what is claimed at this point, finding cables that can provide full compliance past 20 feet are rare to non-existent. With 4K hardware at this time really starting to become much more mainstream, it would be nice if they came out with a new standard that is clearly defined.
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post #63 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
Cable manufacturers/resellers slapping HDMI Version numbers and claiming all manner of 'compliance' at this or that speed have created this mess.

Before 5th Oct cables were either High Speed or Standard - nothing else, any other claims were down to some 'in-house' testing or not reading HDMI.org's labelling guidelines.


So now we have Premium High Speed, High Speed and Standard - though you can guarantee there are folk already creating 'Premium High Speed 2.0a' labels and spurious 'Spec Sheets'.


Joe
Good info Joe, so you are saying there is a new standard of "Premium High Speed" as of Oct. 5th? It would be nice if this was disseminated to the public more clearly, in the meantime I'm happy to have found 20 foot cables that are meet this spec for me.
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post #64 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 10:35 AM
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I believe Joe is saying that you are starting to see HDMI cables labeled as Premium High Speed but there isn't any clear definition, or certification of what "Premium" means.

In regards to your other question, do you have any devices that have the HDMI 2.0 chipsets that are rated for 18.2Gbps? The HDMI 2.0 specs range from 8.91Gbps all the way up to ~72Gbps. So, you can have HDMI 2.0 chipsets but unless specifically stated in the specs you don't now if they max out at 8.91Gbps, 11.14Gbps, or 18.2Gbps. And of course your color sample (4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4) depends on the color depths of your panel (8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit, or 16-bit) and if the tv has the hardware to run those color depths. 2160/60p covers a wide range of possibilities.
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post #65 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I believe Joe is saying that you are starting to see HDMI cables labeled as Premium High Speed but there isn't any clear definition, or certification of what "Premium" means.

In regards to your other question, do you have any devices that have the HDMI 2.0 chipsets that are rated for 18.2Gbps? The HDMI 2.0 specs range from 8.91Gbps all the way up to ~72Gbps. So, you can have HDMI 2.0 chipsets but unless specifically stated in the specs you don't now if they max out at 8.91Gbps, 11.14Gbps, or 18.2Gbps. And of course your color sample (4:2:0, 4:2:2, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4) depends on the color depths of your panel (8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit, or 16-bit) and if the tv has the hardware to run those color depths. 2160/60p covers a wide range of possibilities.
I have a Roku 4 and GeForce GTX 950 that both work in 4K@60Hz, with the GeForce specifically at 4:4:4 chroma on my TV... However, trying to use 4K w/10-bit color setting on the Roku results in a strange doubled image on the top half of the screen, I'm not sure if it is because of the thin, supposedly HDMI 2.0 rated cable I'm using or is a Roku 4 glitch affecting everyone trying to use 10-bit. From my limited research I was shooting for cables rated specifically for 18.2Gbps as I believed that to be the full bandwidth necc. for 4K@60Hz with 4:4:4 chroma. So far I have a thin cord 5 ft cable for Roku and a thick 20ft cable for the PC. I just wish I knew 100% which cables should work. Are you saying if my TV supports 4:4:4 chroma then I have a 16-bit panel? I know on the box and listed in specs "1.07 G" is mentioned for my off-brand TV.
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post #66 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 02:40 PM
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From what I've read 4k/60p 4:4:4 can be achieved with an 8-bit panel at 17.82Gbps. One of our more distinguished contributors suggested that the industry may settle on 4:2:2 at 12-bit resolution for UHD. His reasoning is that a resolution greater than 8 bits is critical to support the higher dynamic ranges without visible banding, which is even more important than increased number of pixels. The lower the color sampling will also yield sharper transitions between colors. It all depends on what bit depth your panel supports and if it has hardware to adequately display 8-bit, 10-bit resolution. It's nice to have a 10-bit panel but does the tv have the necessary hardware to support full 10-bit. The Roku and GForce may support the output but if the tv can't handle the input whether the HDMI 2.0 chipset is at fault, the video processing of the tv doesn't support it, or a funky cable is hard to tell at this point.

Have no idea what "1.07 G" means. Doesn't sound like an industry standard to me.
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post #67 of 1959 Old 11-02-2015, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
From what I've read 4k/60p 4:4:4 can be achieved with an 8-bit panel at 17.82Gbps. One of our more distinguished contributors suggested that the industry may settle on 4:2:2 at 12-bit resolution for UHD. His reasoning is that a resolution greater than 8 bits is critical to support the higher dynamic ranges without visible banding, which is even more important than increased number of pixels. The lower the color sampling will also yield sharper transitions between colors. It all depends on what bit depth your panel supports and if it has hardware to adequately display 8-bit, 10-bit resolution. It's nice to have a 10-bit panel but does the tv have the necessary hardware to support full 10-bit. The Roku and GForce may support the output but if the tv can't handle the input whether the HDMI 2.0 chipset is at fault, the video processing of the tv doesn't support it, or a funky cable is hard to tell at this point.

Have no idea what "1.07 G" means. Doesn't sound like an industry standard to me.
Thanks for the details, some of which I'm semi-familiar with, like when I saw "1.07 G" I assumed it referred to 10-bit color as it supports 1.07 Billion colors, but someone suggested that the "1.07 G" term meant something along the lines of some kind of enhanced 8-bit that simulates 10-bit, I'm not entirely sure... I suppose I can't complain too much as I have a VERY cheap 65" 4K TV and I'm luck that it supports HDMI 2.0 on all 4 of it's ports so it's a "good enough for now" solution to play with 4K for now... I suppose it will be partly wait and see how the industry responds as this holiday season more and more 4K sets will be sold and make 4K much more mainstream.
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post #68 of 1959 Old 11-05-2015, 08:01 AM
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Good news and in the interest of being fair to MyCableMart and the Elite cable/Redmere PRA1700 chip issue, I have been in contact with a manager who wants to work through the issue. They are stepping up and allowing me to keep the cables in place until a solution is viable. At this time, he has offered to send me a 10m Elite cable that has a modified Redmere chip for real-life testing that he says they just received from their manufacturer. I'll post the e-mails below:

From: Neil
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 12:40 PM
To: Ryan
Subject: RE: My Cable Mart Order 1437166966-842


Ryan,

All of our staff were instructed to forward complaints or issues with the 4Kx2K @60Hz to me directly. Dan was not authorized to make promises, nor should he had made statements like “If it were my decision…”

The information regarding certain devices to NOT provide for a full 4Kx2K support using certain cables is still coming in. Updates to our website product descriptions are still occurring as we obtain this additional information. We expect many lawsuits to be filed against HDMI LLC by larger manufacturers as they provided us invalid and incorrect information regarding a high-speed’s cables ability to fully support 4Kx2K at 60Hz. Please see our recent blog regarding this issue at:
http://www.mycablemart.com/blog/index.php

My Cable Mart has been VERY upfront with this information – unlike many of our competitors which continue to sell 50, 60, and sometimes even 100ft lengths of copper HDMI cable and claim they are “4Kx2K at 60Hz”.

We are offering customers to outright RETURN products to use that were previously advertised as supporting 60Hz, that we have since found out may NOT support 60Hz (from certain display devices). You are very welcome to hold on to such cable until we have a resolution.

For cable lengths longer than 40ft, there might not even be a solution that will pass the “Premium HDMI High Speed” testing. Again, we are waiting for our manufacturers to submit samples to HDMI LLC for certification and testing. 4Kx2K @60Hz testing has only be available since October 1, 2015 (believe it or not!).

Neil

General Manager
6224 Bury Dr, Eden Prairie, MN, 55346
P: 952.486.8736, F: 952.937.0469




From: Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 12:07 PM

To: Neil
Cc:
Subject: RE: My Cable Mart Order 1437166966-842


Neil,

I’m sorry this reply is not prompt. I had some things with work and home that have kept me a bit preoccupied. I’m not about to get into a shouting match with you or MyCableMart about this issue. On the contrary, I would like to work with you to come to a resolution so I can confidently move forward knowing that the new systems that were put into my home will perform up to a full 4k @ 60 Hz @ 4:4:4 color depth (Chroma).

Let’s immediately clear something up: Dan did his job, and he did it well. He did not make promises to me in any fashion, nor did he imply otherwise. If you are able to go back and listen to the audio recording of the tech support call, I expressed my opinion of what should be the correct course of action, i.e., I stated that all of us who purchased the cables should be allowed to keep them in place until MyCableMart has a solution. Dan’s comment of, “if it were my decision…” was his way of explaining to me that he knew I would be disappointed in the decision that was made. He should not be reprimanded in this, he should be applauded. He connected with his customer. Legally, he did nothing that would upset your lawyers. In my case, as may well be the case of many others, my HDMI cables are run from a central closet rack system, through the walls and out to the two TV’s in my home. These were put in by professionals, which cost money and time. The e-mail, as forwarded by Dan, had no date. So when it says “for purchases prior to today” there is no way to know when that actually is. Additionally, pulling these cables would need to be by a professional and cost money and time. Receiving the new cables when there is a solution will cost money and time. In the meantime, while waiting for a solution, how do I get a regular signal to the TV’s for entertainment purposes? I’m sure you would agree this is truly a much larger problem than simply returning the cables and is a great inconvenience.

There may be lawsuits filed against HDMI.org and there may be lawsuits filed against your company for the claims of these cables that have proven false. I can’t see myself being one of those that do. I spent $160+ for two cables of 35 ft and 40 ft. They don’t work as advertised and there may not be anything out there that does or ever will. From my research, it would take 4-CAT 7a cables twisted together to equal the bandwidth needed for 4K @ 60 Hz @ 4:4:4 color depth. Filing a lawsuit over $160? That would certainly not be one of the best decisions I have ever made.

You say you were very upfront about the information. That may be so, but to whom were you upfront? What should have happened is that any person who purchased these Elite cables should have been contacted by e-mail immediately and told that you had been made aware of the issue and that you were working on a solution since these cables have a limited lifetime warranty and would be replaced by MyCableMart under warranty for failure to do as advertised. This would have made MyCableMart the hero company who stands behind their product. Good PR like that is hard to come by.

I have searched for information online and found several other people complaining about this issue and saying that they personally contacted MyCableMart as far back as June, but that your company wouldn’t listen. I don’t know for a fact this is true, but unfortunately, it makes it seem as if your company didn’t want to do anything about it. HDMI.org’s statement that was read to me by Dan was dated October 5th, 2015. The blog you directed me to had one statement about the issue, dated October 29th, 2015, the day before I called in. The information that is still on your website as of today is misleading at best. If you are really concerned about customers and their perceptions and opinions, you should make sure that when it states the “All of My Cable Mart's HIGH SPEED HDMI cables (previously certified using the version 1.4B testing specifications) now meet HDMI LLC's version 2.0 specifications supporting data speeds of 18Gbps and beyond - as well as many other additional features including HDCP 2.2 support, and 4Kx2K at 30 or 60Hz Click HERE for more information about HDMI 2.0”, there should be a disclaimer of “@ 4:2:0 chroma.” I’m sure you have already seen the pic I attached, but in case you didn’t, take a look. It’s the full 4K @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 color depth that seems to be what these cables are not able to reproduce.

Regards
Ryan
____________________
Ryan

AVP of Sales & Marketing





From: Neil
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 7:55 AM
To:
Subject: My Cable Mart Order 1437166966-842


Ryan,

Yesterday, our manufacturer has sent to us a special 35ft HDMI cable with a revised Redmere PRA1700 chipset that has passed 18Gbps at 60Hz testing. We want to know if you are interested in exchanging this 33ft cable with this new revision and to test this cable on your equipment?

Question: Do you specifically have a method to test a video clip at 4Kx2K at 60 fps (60Hz)?

Neil
6224 Bury Dr, Eden Prairie, MN, 55346
P: 952.486.8736, F: 952.937.0469



From: Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 12:47 PM
To: Neil
Subject: RE: My Cable Mart Order 1437166966-842


Neil,

I would be more than willing to test this cable, but shouldn’t it be done there? If it is just a single cable with a revised Redmere PRA1700 chip, I think it would be better for me to wait until they are widely and commercially available.
NEIL: Testing has been completed by HDMI LLC – but we want a REAL LIFE test with a REAL TV before we give manufacturing the go-ahead to mass produce with this revised PRA1700 Redmere chipset.

1) Is the cable 35 ft or 33 ft?
NEIL: I believe it is 33 feet or 10 meters
2) Is there only one cable? I purchased 2 different cables of 35 ft and 40 ft for the LVR and MBR, respectively.
NEIL: We have only ONE sample sent to us from manufacturing for testing. This would be a FREE sample that you would not have to return to us. All we ask is that if you can perform this test for us to see if it fully supports your 4K at 60Hz
3) I don’t have a direct way to play of video clip of 4K @ 60 Hz, however the two AV devices I have produce a visual interface signal that is internally generated. These visual interfaces are 4K @ 60 Hz.
NEIL: This is what we suspected, as HDMI LLC has informed us that there currently are NO movies or videos that are in production beyond 24fps (or “30Hz” support).

I recognize it might be helpful for any engineers or AV experts you have employed to know specifically the problems I have with the two cables. What I have are two systems, LVR and MBR, that were all put in over the past summer. Everything was professionally installed by a home theater company, Custom Integrators here in Waco. David Keller is the manager and one of the most knowledgeable people I have met in the field of home theater. They brought out a standard 20 ft high speed passive HDMI cable. This cable was able to send all signals, including the visual interfaced at 4K 60 Hz.

NEIL: We completely understand this. Please also understand that this was HDMI LLC (the technology inventory and licensee) that provided INCORRECT specifications for HDMI cable manufacturers stating that if a cable tested to HDMI 1.4A HIGH SPEED testing specifications, that it would fully pass all 4K content (30 and 60Hz, including “4:4:4 chroma subsampling”). Unfortunately, HDMI LLC screwed up because there were not any TV’s made at that time that could even support such a signal type.

LVR:
Marantz AV8802A Pre-processor (all HDMI ports are HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2)
Samsung UN65JS9500 TV (all HDMI ports are HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 and switchable from UHD color map on/off)
Video Sources: DTV HR34, Roku 3, Panasonic Blu-Ray and Xbox One (none are capable of 4K, let alone 4K @ 60 Hz)
The Marantz AV8802A Pre-pro outputs a 4K @ 60 Hz 4:4:4 signal across the HDMI cable to the TV for the visual interfaces of Apple AirPlay, Bluetooth and HD FM tuning. It is these visual interfaces that disappear when the HDMI ports are in UHD color map mode. Turning this mode off, they reappear.

MBR:
Pioneer VSX-90 Elite AVR (All 6 ports are HDMI 2.0/ 3 of the 6 ports are HDCP 2.2 compliant)
Samsung UN55JS9000 TV (all HDMI ports are HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 and switchable from UHD color map on/off)
Video Sources: DTV HR24, Roku 3, Pioneer Elite Blu-Ray, Popcorn Hour C-200 and Xbox One (none are capable of 4K, let alone 4K @ 60 Hz)
The Pioneer VSX-90 Elite AVR outputs a 4K @ 60 Hz 4:4:4 signal across the HDMI cable to the TV for the visual interfaces of Apple AirPlay, Bluetooth and HD FM tuning. It is these visual interfaces that disappear when the HDMI ports are in UHD color map mode. Turning this mode off, they reappear. Additionally, any device attached to a non-HDCP 2.2 port on the receiver disappears when the TV HDMI port is in UHD mode. I’m not sure if this is also an issue of the cable not working correctly.

Regards,
Ryan



From: Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 5:43 PM
To: Neil
Subject: Re: My Cable Mart Order 1437166966-842


Neil,

I would be more than willing to test the cable out. The three Redmere cables I have (the 2 Elite cables from MyCableMart and the 15 ft from Monoprice) each failed.

HDMI LLC is correct in that there is nothing available at this time that will play a 60Hz video clip from a direct source. However both at CEDIA and CES this past year, Sony and Panasonic had 4K blu ray players showcasing the 60Hz content. They are due out this holiday season and into the 1Q 2016. Titles are due out shortly thereafter.

As I stated below, the 4K @ 60 Hz source that I have is the Marantz Pre-pro and the Pioneer Elite AVR. Both output the visual interfaces for Apple AirPlay, Bluetooth and FM Tuning in 4K @ 60 Hz. Marantz was fairly certain the failure to display these by the TV was due to the Elite cable, but it wasn't confirmed until Custom Integrators came to the house and ran a passive cable to the TV straight across the room to the TV from the rack. These are the only true 4K 60 Hz sources that I am aware of and certainly would not test the bandwidth of the cable, merely the ability to display a 4K @ 60 Hz signal.

The Roku 4 is now available and it supports 4K up to 60Hz, but whether or not the streaming titles available in UHD are full 4K 60 Hz or not is beyond me. This is important as right now, the UHD streams that can be accessed must be accessed via an app built into the TV software. The Roku 4 would be the first to have the ability to run the signal via HDMI either directly through the TV port or through a pre-pro/AVR and then out to the TV.

If you want to send it to me, I'll test it out with the visual interface signals and see what happens.

Regards,
Ryan

AVP of Sales & Marketing

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post #69 of 1959 Old 11-05-2015, 08:26 AM
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Interesting info... Until I got the 20ft KabelDirekt to work for me I tried 2 others, all off Amazon, and I gave the 2 that didn't work poor reviews...Now keep in mind, both directly claimed "18Gbps" speed. Well, both sellers contacted me and I explained my reason for the poor reviews. The first, "2-Pack Ultra Clarity HDMI 2.0 Flat Cable - High Speed (25 Feet) Supports Ethernet, 4K, 3D, and Audio Return", passed a 4K@30Hz only, much like my previous 1.4a cable I already had. My response and their reply went like this:

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the response and the honest feedback. We will update our listings accordingly.

--- Original message ---

I returned my cables a while ago already... This is not necessarily your fault, but at 25 feet long, they did not pass through a 4K@60Hz signal... I don't know if it is because of the length and with no industry standard for 4K@60Hz and length limits. I'm going to update my review, but you guys may want to know about these limits and update your cable descriptions accordingly and that I don't believe many cables will work beyond 15-20 feet for 4K@60Hz with full 4:4:4 chroma.
-Daniel

As of now, they haven't updated their listing.

The second, "Super HD 4K Ultra HDMI Cable 2.0V Support 3D,1080P,Ethernet,and Audio Return Channel(ARC) -25Feet" did not even pass through 4K@30Hz... wow, REALLY disappointed... The seller, to his credit was VERY aggressive in trying to please me and is sending me another cable free of charge in exchange for removing my review, which I'm not sure is possible, so I just updated it to include positive language about the seller and that it works fine for 1080p, seems like quality construction, etc but left in language that it did not work for me in 4K at all... I'm going to give it a try and report back to him the results, although I'm not expecting anything different. I also tried to warn him about length limits and not necessarily their fault due to no industry standards in place for HDMI 2.0 supported cables, but they simply insisted theirs should work.

Bottom-line, KabelDirekt at 20 feet works perfect for me and they DO warn customers in their descriptions that runs beyond 25 feet might need a "repeater"... I'm not sure how successful that would be for a 4K@60Hz signal as you guys have been reporting Redmere issues, but at least they are trying to be honest up front... So yes, with a little finesse, a 20 ft. cable is suiting my needs but now I'm curious if the KabelDirekt in 25 ft would work and give me a bit of slack that I'd like.
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post #70 of 1959 Old 11-05-2015, 05:21 PM
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It would appear that cable mfrs are really pushing the labeling of their cables by using "HDMI 2.0" in the cable description. It's reminiscent of what cable mfrs used to do by labeling their cables "HDMI 1.4" which lead to a lot of consumer confusion and prompted HDMI.org to ask cable mfrs to drop the hardware designation from their cable descriptions and just use Standard or High Speed for the cable description. The "Super HD 4K Ultra HDMI Cable 2.0V" is really sketchy. I wouldn't trust any mfr that labeled their cables that way. And until HDMI.org comes up with a standardized testing protocol for HDMI 2.0 and 18Gbps speeds, it's all marketing b.s. imo.
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post #71 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
It would appear that cable mfrs are really pushing the labeling of their cables by using "HDMI 2.0" in the cable description....I wouldn't trust any mfr that labeled their cables that way. And until HDMI.org comes up with a standardized testing protocol for HDMI 2.0 and 18Gbps speeds, it's all marketing b.s. imo.
It seems that HDMI.org has released more information on the "Premium HDMI Cable Certification Program" which can be found here and the program will include certification of both 2.0 and 2.0a specs. There is an FAQ, as well. The program will allow those with smartphones or ability to access the verification tool webpage to scan the anti-counterfeit tag or enter the unique ID under the tag and find out the EXACT specifications of THAT particular cable inside the package. This will be easy to do in a retail store, not so easy when ordering a cable from your favorite WWW mega store. Hopefully, the cable descriptions online will show a pic of the Premium Certification label for peace-of-mind. Also, there is a listing you can access of participants in the program. Some of these are mega companies, some are manufacturers. For me, it will be hard to know if a cable from Amazon or Monoprice came from one of these manufacturers or not without the certification tag.

This sounds like the standardization protocol you desire. Thoughts?

Still no word of theoretical max cable length. Just to throw this out there, it seems as if this program is designed to thwart the MonoPrice's of the world.

I haven't heart from MyCableMart as to whether or not they are actually sending the 10m (33 ft) modified Redmere chip to me as offered, or not.
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post #72 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
It seems that HDMI.org has released more information on the "Premium HDMI Cable Certification Program" which can be found here and the program will include certification of both 2.0 and 2.0a specs. There is an FAQ, as well. The program will allow those with smartphones or ability to access the verification tool webpage to scan the anti-counterfeit tag or enter the unique ID under the tag and find out the EXACT specifications of THAT particular cable inside the package. This will be easy to do in a retail store, not so easy when ordering a cable from your favorite WWW mega store. Hopefully, the cable descriptions online will show a pic of the Premium Certification label for peace-of-mind. Also, there is a listing you can access of participants in the program. Some of these are mega companies, some are manufacturers. For me, it will be hard to know if a cable from Amazon or Monoprice came from one of these manufacturers or not without the certification tag.

This sounds like the standardization protocol you desire. Thoughts?

Still no word of theoretical max cable length. Just to throw this out there, it seems as if this program is designed to thwart the MonoPrice's of the world.

I haven't heart from MyCableMart as to whether or not they are actually sending the 10m (33 ft) modified Redmere chip to me as offered, or not.
Sounds good to me... a new "Premium HDMI Cable Certification Program" so we knew what cables supported the full 4K@60Hz w/4:4:4 chroma would be great! In the mean time, at least I have Amazon Prime and sent those cables back completely postage free with UPS even coming to my work to pick them up.
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post #73 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post

This sounds like the standardization protocol you desire. Thoughts?
Yep. I remember a long time ago when I purchased passive high speed hdmi cables from MediaBridge they came with a certificate of compliance for the length that I purchased. I'm glad to see HDMI.org stepping up and starting (or re-starting) a certification program for the HDMI 2.0 hardware specs because it's painfully apparent that the cable mfrs, even some reputable ones, are confusing the public with claims and carefully worded marketing, just like they did when they were labeling cables as HDMI 1.3, 1.4, etc. However, even with a certification program in place, one will have to be careful that the certification program is one that is approved by HDMI.org, and not just an "in-house" testing program that doesn't follow the HDMI.org requirements which should include cable length as it did for the HDMI 1.4 hardware spec (25').
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post #74 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 02:49 PM
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I purchased a Mediabridge ULTRA Series HDMI Cable (25 Feet) last year for HDMI 2.0 4K/60, didn't work. Returned it. IDK if it had a cert. or not.

They claim this:

Specifications
- Supports 3D, Ethernet channel, ARC, 1440p, 1080p & 4K@50/60 (2160p) Ultra HD resolution
- Supports transfer rates of at least 18Gbps & 240/480Hz increased refresh rates
- Supports 48-Bit deep color, HDCP compliant & True HD-Dolby 7.1
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post #75 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorwizz View Post
I purchased a Mediabridge ULTRA Series HDMI Cable (25 Feet) last year for HDMI 2.0 4K/60, didn't work. Returned it. IDK if it had a cert. or not.

They claim this:

Specifications
- Supports 3D, Ethernet channel, ARC, 1440p, 1080p & 4K@50/60 (2160p) Ultra HD resolution
- Supports transfer rates of at least 18Gbps & 240/480Hz increased refresh rates
- Supports 48-Bit deep color, HDCP compliant & True HD-Dolby 7.1
I just bought 4 of these but at 3 and 6 feet... they better work!

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post #76 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdeyoung View Post
I just bought 4 of these but at 3 and 6 feet... they better work!
I think my issue was length. 25ft is probably too long for 4K/60 HDMI 2.0
Mediabridge doesn't make a 20ft.
A 20ft Kabledirect Pro Series worked perfect.
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post #77 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 05:17 PM
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Making a claim is one thing. But actually supplying a certificate that states that the cable length was tested by an approved and standardized method is an entirely different matter. That's what I'm hoping comes out of the HDMI.org push. 25' may turn out to be too long for a passive cable to meet the 4k/60p at 18Gbps requirements that some owners feel they need. Certification also provides some sort of qc guarantee from cable to cable. We're already seeing some people claim that cable "X" works for them but somebody who buys the same cable from the same mfr has difficulties.
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post #78 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
there should be a disclaimer of “@ 4:2:0 chroma.” I’m sure you have already seen the pic I attached, but in case you didn’t, take a look. It’s the full 4K @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 color depth that seems to be what these cables are not able to reproduce.
It's broken at any chroma depth, at least for cables of a certain length. I'm going from the GTX 980TI to the Sony VPL-600ES which only supports 10.8gbps in on HDMI 2.0 @ 4:2:0 4k60p, and it still doesn't work at 25'. I have two of these MyCableMart Elite cables in the wall because I didn't have a 4k sink during install and expected them to work as advertised.

Last edited by Pyxle; 11-06-2015 at 10:56 PM.
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post #79 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 10:55 PM
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On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 5:43 AM, My Cable Mart - Amazon Marketplace
<email address removed> wrote:

Please request a RETURN via the AMAZON portal. We can not initiate a return request ourselves for this ONE cable.

--- Original message ---

How do I check if it has been certified? NVidia is listed as an
adopter on the HDMI site.

I am not the first person to have this problem with Redmere HDMI 2.0
apparently. See:

- http://www.amazon.com/review/RGN1UZLRS527S/
- HDMI cables that support 4K@60Hz, 4:4:4 chroma, and Deep Color?
- HDMI cables that support 4K@60Hz, 4:4:4 chroma, and Deep Color?

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:12 PM, My Cable Mart - Amazon Marketplace
<[e-mail address removed]> wrote:
>
> We are currently working first with REDMERE to determine if there is a known incompatibility with this specific video card. The product itself absolutely performs as advertised, and has been certified and tested by HDMI LLC for such compatibility. However, if the VIDEO CARD you are using this with has not been certified and tested by HDMI LLC, we can not be responsible for such results.
>
> --- Original message ---
>
> But it doesn't perform as advertised.
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 5:45 AM, My Cable Mart - Amazon Marketplace
> <[e-mail address removed]> wrote:
>>
>> We accept returns for refund within a 30 day period. Unfortunately, we can not accept this product back as it is beyond our return period.
>>
>> --- Original message ---
>>
>> Ok thanks. I'm interested in the answer as I still have the two 25'
>> cables. If I can go ahead and return the other 15' cable that would be
>> great.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 9:09 AM, My Cable Mart - Amazon Marketplace
>> <[e-mail address removed]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the detailed information surrounding this issue. I have sent an email directly to our cable manufacturer to see if we can get more information about this specific issue with your specific video card. The REDMERE PRA1700 chip is used in MONSTER and AUDIO QUEST cables as well. We are going to see if this is a VIDEO CARD issue, or a REDMERE CHIP issue.
>>>
>>> --- Original message ---
>>>
>>> I am trying to send 3840x2160 60hz 4:2:0 subsampling over HDMI 2.0,
>>> which should be only 10Gbps. It cuts in and out and I have
>>> intermittent black lines through the picture. Everything works fine at
>>> lower resolutions or hz. I think it is an incompatibility with RedMere
>>> and the Nvidia 980TI card. I got a 15' cable without Redmere that
>>> works so I want to replace both 15' runs with that one. I will keep
>>> the 25' cables as they are in the wall already and I don't need to
>>> connect the PC through them.
>>>
>>> I have seen some other reports online which also lead me to believe
>>> there is an issue with Redmere and Nvidia. Probably it would make
>>> sense for you to test this specific configuration.
>>>
>>> I posted some more information on AVS forum:
>>> Nvidia and 4K 60hz problems
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 2:24 PM, My Cable Mart - Amazon Marketplace
>>> <[e-mail address removed]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to hear you are having trouble with the 15' HDMI cable not supporting 4K. I see you have multiple purchases of this cable from our company, are you able to get the other 15ft cable to support 4K? I would like to find out if you possibly received a defective cable, or if we have a larger issue here. Could you also let me know what resolution you are attempting to achieve?
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, does the cable work properly at a lower resolution? When your computer is set to a resolution of 4096x2160 at 30/60hz do you simply not get a signal once so over, or does it cut in/out?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Shane C
>>>> Returns
>>>>
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post #80 of 1959 Old 11-06-2015, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
NEIL: This is what we suspected, as HDMI LLC has informed us that there currently are NO movies or videos that are in production beyond 24fps (or “30Hz” support).
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
HDMI LLC is correct in that there is nothing available at this time that will play a 60Hz video clip from a direct source. However both at CEDIA and CES this past year, Sony and Panasonic had 4K blu ray players showcasing the 60Hz content. They are due out this holiday season and into the 1Q 2016. Titles are due out shortly thereafter.
NVidia cards could drive 4k60p beginning in June 2014...
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post #81 of 1959 Old 11-07-2015, 07:12 AM
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Pyxle,

I hear you. The Elite MyCableMart HDMI Redmere Pra1700 chip cables I have can at least pass a signal for 4K@ 24 Hz and 30 Hz. The Marantz AV8802A pre-pro I have can upconvert the signal. It has two different 4K scaling features of "4K" and "4K 50/60 Hz." The first has no problem reaching the TV and being reproduced. The second gives no signal to the TV. According to charts I have seen, any 24/30 Hz 4K signal would be either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 chroma running at 10 and 8 bit depth, respectively.

I agree the Nvidia cards, and maybe others, can upconvert the signal to a 4K 60 Hz. However, what Neil from MyCableMart and myself were discussing is the ability to upconvert and produce a 60 Hz 4K 4:2:2 signal, rather NATIVE content at 4K 60 Hz 4:4:4, which would tax not only the ability to pass the signal, but to test the bandwidth of the cable as well.

Last edited by fizban11; 11-08-2015 at 03:13 PM. Reason: Reviewed my chart that I uploaded below
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post #82 of 1959 Old 11-07-2015, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxle View Post
It's broken at any chroma depth, at least for cables of a certain length. I'm going from the GTX 980TI to the Sony VPL-600ES which only supports 10.8gbps in on HDMI 2.0 @ 4:2:0 4k60p, and it still doesn't work at 25'. I have two of these MyCableMart Elite cables in the wall because I didn't have a 4k sink during install and expected them to work as advertised.
I hope you installed your in-wall cables in a conduit Cable specs are going to change so the only way to "future proof" any in-wall cable installation is to use conduit and throw in a couple of solid core CAT-6/7 cables for when an HDMI cable won't work or be sufficient for the change in cable specs.
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post #83 of 1959 Old 11-08-2015, 02:30 PM
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I installed the current cables directly in wall, but added a 1.5" empty conduit for future proofing. Space was tight. I didn't expect the cables I had bought to be obsolete the day they were installed.
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post #84 of 1959 Old 11-08-2015, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
NATIVE content at 4K 60 Hz, which would tax not only the ability to pass the signal, but to test the bandwidth of the cable as well.
Various games are rendered natively at 4k, that is my point. The level of detail is equivalent to native 4k video.
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post #85 of 1959 Old 11-08-2015, 03:10 PM
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Pyxle,

With all due respect, please review the chart I uploaded. I'm not getting into a war with you or anyone out there that wants to shout from the rooftops that they have been able to do PC gaming running at native 4K @ 60 Hz. That's not only probably true, it's likely true. However, from the chart, you will see that 4K @ 50/60p (Hz) was a function of HDMI v. 2.0, but only at 4:2:0 chroma (color depth), 8 bit and only rated on the 10.2 Gbps bandwidth specs. Please, let's not confuse a blanket "4K @ 60Hz" signal with 4K @ 50/60p (Hz), 4:4:4 chroma (color depth) at 8 bit/12 bit or 4:2:2 12 bit signals. These are functions of the HDMI v. 2.0a specs in the 18 Gbps bandwidth specs, which I refer to as "full 4K."

Bottom line, not all 4K @ 60 Hz signals are the same. With the aforementioned content at 24/30p (Hz), it can be upconverted, but the cable must be able to pass the entire signal. Some will pass the signal up to a certain length, some will not. Most cannot pass an upconverted signal to 4:4:4 greater than 8-bit 24p 4K signals, let alone a native signal greater than this. It doesn't have to do with the 60 Hz signal, so much as the video information increasing to 4:4:4 chroma at 8/12 bit, which the cables can't seem to handle. If they can pass the upconverted signal, there is no guarantee it will pass a native signal for "full 4K" due to the bandwidth restrictions.

As I have said before and pointed out to Neil at MyCableMart, the irony is that a passive HDMI cable rated for "High Speed" seems to be able to handle the full 4K 4:4:4 chroma at 8/12bit in the 18 Gbps bandwidth range with ease up to at least 20 ft. Beyond this, almost everything is failing. Since there is nothing out there that is native "Full 4K" (again 4:4:4 chroma at 8/12 bit in the 18 Gbps bandwidth), there is no way to actually test the cables for this bandwidth other than verifying the handshake has occurred.
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post #86 of 1959 Old 11-08-2015, 06:53 PM
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Just because they are part of the approved HDMI 2.0 Specifications Set doesn't automatically mean that any given passive high speed cable has been tested and certified to run the full HDMI 2.0 spec set at a given length. Ethernet and Deep Color capability, for example, are part of the HDMI 1.4/2.0 specs but was never implemented into commercial devices. You can't compare across the board video games and video (movies). The standards are set for video but game developers can do pretty much what they want. They should be close but there is no guarantee. Until there is approved certification methods that are adopted by all cable mfrs it's going to be a crap shoot purchasing passive/active HDMI cables and expecting full HDMI 2.0 capability especially at lengths longer than about 20'-25'. My guess is that passive HDMI cables that are certified for 18.2Gbps are going to be thick and heavy, which is going to reduce flexibility, put more strain on the inputs, and be restricted to lengths less than 25'. I hope I'm wrong.
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post #87 of 1959 Old 11-09-2015, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban11 View Post
Pyxle,

With all due respect, please review the chart I uploaded.
I understand all that; I'm saying that the cables didn't work at the lower 4:2:0 bandwidth. But they didn't even test that.

Neverthless you can create a native 4k 60hz 8bit 4:4:4 signal over HDMI 2.0a from an Nvidia card, so it is possible to test. But I only have an HDMI 2.0b sink so I can't do it myself.

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post #88 of 1959 Old 11-09-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Pyxle View Post
I understand all that; I'm saying that the cables didn't work at the lower 4:2:0 bandwidth. But they didn't even test that.

Neverthless you can create a native 4k 60hz 8bit 4:4:4 signal over HDMI 2.0a from an Nvidia card, so it is possible to test. But I only have an HDMI 2.0b sink so I can't do it myself.
What's HDMI 2.0b? 2.0a is just a firmware push for HDR capability (the flags for metadata) supported only by the new chipsets that can support 18.2Gbps, which, btw, are just starting to become available in some devices.
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post #89 of 1959 Old 11-09-2015, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
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What's HDMI 2.0b? 2.0a is just a firmware push for HDR capability (the flags for metadata) supported only by the new chipsets that can support 18.2Gbps, which, btw, are just starting to become available in some devices.
I was going by fizban11's chart above that suggests it is required for 18Gbps depth/chroma bundles.
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post #90 of 1959 Old 11-09-2015, 02:03 PM
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The use of 2.0b is confusing and not accurate because it implies an official hardware standard, which it's not. To keep it simple:


2160/60p, 4:2:0, 8-bit, 8.91Gbps
2160/60p, 4:2:0, 10-bit, 11.14Gbps
2160/60p, 4:2:0, 12-bit, 13.37Gbps
2160/60p, 4:2:0, 16-bit, 17.82Gbps
2160/60p, 4:2:2, 8-, 10- or 12-bit, 17.82Gbps
2160/60p, 4:4:4, 8-bit, 17.82Gbps
4320/60p, 4:4:4, 12-bit, ~72Gbps


Until HDMI.org approves ATC's (Authorized Testing Centers) for full HDMI 2.0 compliance there is no guarantee that a cable that can deliver up 18Gbps is going to work reliably at those bandwidths and color depth, let alone meet the other requirements (CEC Extensions, Dual-View, Multi-Stream Audio, 21:9 aspect ratio, and Dynamic Auto Lip-Sync).

Last edited by Otto Pylot; 11-09-2015 at 02:16 PM.
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