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post #31 of 63 Old 08-08-2016, 10:26 AM
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My sense is that the current HDMI and HDCP solutions appear cumbersome and perhaps unworkable. There would appear to be at least three parties with skin in the game: software and media producers, equipment manufacturers and users. A class actions suit seems like a costly and lengthy solution.

I plan to use my 1080 plasma as long as it holds out or until I am assured that any UHD products I buy will work.
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post #32 of 63 Old 08-12-2016, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
the blame falls squarely on HDMI.org for setting standards that are unobtainable, and not providing sufficient guidance or test certification to help enforce their standards, in my opinion: I would not give them a pass on this mess: they helped create it
Hasn't HDMI.org collected enough money from OEM's, Licensed members, and the end customer. To produce a robust, simple, and a plug and play leading technology solution? Why don't the OEM's support another solution, and stop paying HDMI.org there licensing fee and wasted profits? Why don't the OEM's send a message with there pocket book. Sounds to me like HDMI.org needs a wake up call.

Is there a alternative connector plug/play technology that meets the needs of 4k uhd, arc equivalent, and all the latest audio codecs along with future codecs for the next 10 years? Don't get me wrong, I just dropped a jaw dropping investment in my home theater to be future proof, and the last thing I want to do is sell it all and upgrade to a new plug/play technology. Just to have it all work together harmoniously.

I wounder if we could file a class action lawsuit against HDMI? Not saying this for a financial gain! But the amount of time and money I have invested in my home theater. I am absolutely appalled that it is not working smoothly together. Which is not cool!

Flagship AVR, Flagship cables, essentially Flagship TV. Your telling me with this kind of investment, and I have problems. Not cool, and not acceptable! Something has to be done, and this is not acceptable to me!

Delete HDCP crap ware. How and the hell does the movie system have any right to tell me as a consumer how my devices work together and communicate, actually more like don't communicate together. I followed all the recommendations. Did a hell of a lot of research, and it is not working properly by designed. How is this my problem when I just spent over $10k on my home theater. Thanks a lot HDMI.org, Thanks a lot OEM's, Thanks a lot Movie industry. Because I am very quickly being turned off from this hobby!

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post #33 of 63 Old 08-12-2016, 04:51 PM
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Is there a alternative connector plug/play technology that meets the needs of 4k uhd, arc equivalent, and all the latest audio codecs along with future codecs for the next 10 years? Don't get me wrong, I just dropped a jaw dropping investment in my home theater to be future proof, and the last thing I want to do is sell it all and upgrade to a new plug/play technology. Just to have it all work together harmoniously.

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post #34 of 63 Old 08-12-2016, 09:03 PM
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Not really. The only way you can "future proof" your system is to use a conduit if your wiring is in-wall. Cable technology is way behind the video technology so you'll need a way to update the connectivity as needs dictate. The best way, so far, is to use a conduit and install a couple of solid wire CAT-6a cables. I would never install HDMI cables in-wall if there was not a way to easily remove/replace them.
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post #35 of 63 Old 08-12-2016, 09:38 PM
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Not really. The only way you can "future proof" your system is to use a conduit if your wiring is in-wall. Cable technology is way behind the video technology so you'll need a way to update the connectivity as needs dictate. The best way, so far, is to use a conduit and install a couple of solid wire CAT-6a cables. I would never install HDMI cables in-wall if there was not a way to easily remove/replace them.
My sense is that the media creators hire lawyers and technical staff to create a rip proof system and threaten any equipment manufacturer who does not comply with HDCP. I do understand the importance and fairness of copyright laws. Those who write the standards are charged with building a fortress that cannot be breached and not necessarily a system that works. Originally it was a protected audio path and everyone had to buy new equipment. Those who wrote the standards had no idea about cables which would work over more than 20 feet and compression artifacts. Their goal seems to be only streamed material and everyone pays for each view. Personally I believe everyone would be happier and make more money with a more accessible delivery system. UHD is going to be still born without significant changes.

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post #36 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiganTim View Post
Is there a alternative connector plug/play technology that meets the needs of 4k uhd, arc equivalent, and all the latest audio codecs along with future codecs for the next 10 years? Don't get me wrong, I just dropped a jaw dropping investment in my home theater to be future proof, and the last thing I want to do is sell it all and upgrade to a new plug/play technology. Just to have it all work together harmoniously.
I have no issues with the HDMI connector itself: I think it will be around a while: I do miss the good old days of component video connections: they always worked

it is the HDCP copy protection that is the issue: and you may never achieve 'future proof'...I am sure 2.2 will not be the last version of HDCP we will see: I bet they are working on newer codecs that will cause more incompatibility issues and render more gear obsolete: it is what they do.

for example I bought a Krell Foundation 4K thinking it would be future proof: and now I learn it will not pass HDR and cannot be upgraded
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post #37 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 07:02 AM
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I agree that the connector it self is a good looking connector.

I am a little confused. Lets say you have 1080P/I content that is being sourced from the TV. The design of the tv and spec. is it will deliver full surround, DD+, True HD, Dolby Atmos from tv to AVR. But you only get stereo to AVR. HDCP 2.2 doesn't matter, or shouldn't because the 1080 content. Also the bandwidth is much lower, at least it is not 4k data that needs to be passed in this scenario. So why is the audio only stereo? Why is the HDMI, ARC, CEC robust in this scenario and working? Why only certain oem AVR's work in this scenario? Even if all of the AVR'S are HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0.

If the hardware providers tell the content providers to pound sand with HDCP 2.x. What would the content providers do if none of the hardware in the marketplace can deliver there content. Seems to me the content providers pocket book would be hurting, and the content providers would have to comply with hardware manufacturers. But then again we don't call the movie industry customer service if we can't play a movie, we call the hardware mfg.

Even back in the day, the early HDMI. I never had a issue with it. It would just work. How hard would it be to add additional pins and wires to the current hdmi cable for additional bandwidth. Make the pipe bigger. Make the AWG bigger for longer distances, or increase the voltage for longer distances. I thought HDMI was a digital technology. So why so many problems with distance. On or Off should have no issue with distance. Or why not do what they did with micro usb 3.0. Add another connector to HDMI, even though it's a ugly connector. Add additional pins.

The other option that comes to mind is, why not go fiber optic? Fiber seems to me the correct pathway possibly for larger bandwidth. You could still have HDCP 2.2 chips in all your devices. The down side I see with fiber is how fragile it is.

Is there a ethernet version in the marketplace that offers the bandwidth needed for 4k uhd, 8k, and all the audio codecs?

What about a wireless system. Where audio/video devices connect ot each other on a dedicated wireless channel. Completely different and separate from Wifi enet. Kind of like the smart home wireless connectivity z-wave and zigbee. I understand this would not be idea for say gaming.

Are the HDMI/arc/cec problems we are seeing today from a perfect storm? Meaning the hdmi/hdcp/arc/cec/audio specs poorly written? Are the communication flags in this specification poorly written? MY line of questioning is where is the true bottle neck? Is it software/firmware. Is it the AWG of the wire? Is it the # of pins? Is it the type of pin? What is the bottle neck in the connector, and what will it take to open up the pipe on HDMI?

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post #38 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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an HD -SDI connector would have been a better option to carry video in my opinion

the main issues with HDMI are implementation: incorrect EDID's, poor implementation of ARC/CEC, and repeater devices such as AVR's, processors et al: there are so many possible combinations of gear that full testing is not possible

all the OEM's make their boxes/displays, and claim it meets HDCP 2.2 or whatever, and self certify it to HDMI.org: and from there we are on our own. When I see what knowledgeable AVS members go through to get an HDR picture with HD sound through a receiver controlled by ARC....well you see the mess created

The industry has made the whole thing needlessly complicated, and failed to be sure integration testing was fully done: and the best they offer is a second HDMI port for audio: and we thank them: in fact they sell more cables this way
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post #39 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 09:05 AM
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ARC/CEC, while a great idea in theory, is just fraught with problems. The issue is non-standardization of the protocols, even within the same mfr. Makes no sense to me but that's the way it is. CEC Extensions, a "standardized" set of protocols was supposed to take of the CEC issues in HDMI 2.0 but it appears that not all hardware mfrs have implemented/upgraded that in their devices. ARC is limited to 5.1 and Atmos, in some cases, apparently because of bandwidth requirements in HDMI cables. However, HDMI cables can easily carry 4k/HDR over a given distance. I think the system is hobbled when it comes to bi-directional transmission for whatever reason.

I gave up on ARC/CEC a long time ago and went with an optical cable and a Harmony remote. I've learned to live with 5.1 when watching tv broadcasts (OTA) and I'm ok with that. I don't stream 4k, yet, so the HD Audio aspect is not a problem for me, at least not yet. I've never been a fan of smart tv's, I would much rather use a STB like an AppleTV or a Roku because they seem to be much more robust that what is built-in to panel and are easier, and cheaper to upgrade as need be. I realize that I'm in a minority but to me, that's a small compromise that I'm willing to make to have trouble-free tv at this point in time.

Cable certification (real certification not just plugging the cable in and if you get a 4k signal, it's "certified") is supposed to give the consumer some sort of reliable guideline and real expectation of cable performance. But we've seen that's not always the case due to the myriad of equipment designs and setups as mentioned. Laying out a cable in a straight line for 50', connecting a pattern generator at one end and some sort of display device at the other end is not the same as winding a cable thru a wall and angling the sink end to fit in an HDMI input. Not to mention the HDMI chipsets that are in use.

HDCP is a whole 'nuther matter that bothers me to no end as well. But I won't go into that here because my post is already long enough.

It all seems to me that the consumer has been purposely mislead and screwed by the device mfrs with this push to the higher video standards. There's always going to be early adopters, which is fine, but once they start talking about how wonderful HDR (DV, HDR10, whatever) is, other folks get excited and want the same. The device mfrs know that so they push real hard with marketing, labeling (purposely confusing with different terms for the same thing), etc to get the consumer to buy what they think is the latest only to find, just like computers, that you're close to being outdated 6 months later.

Of course the cable mfrs fail to mention the connection issues and how far behind that technology is compared to the current audio/video technology. I don't want to sound like a conspiracist (sp?) but it's almost as if both industries (device and cable) are working together to put it to the consumer in getting us to buy the latest devices (because we have to have them) and then saying, oops, that cable won't work at that distance but if you buy this cable ( at an unreasonable price) it MAY work better.

The longtime folks here are aware of that and go into it with eyes wide open. But I think we're in the minority, and the bulk of the folks who come here and post, or just lurk, are wondering why they can't achieve what they salesperson said they could.

Sorry for the rant. I guess I shouldn't have had that second cup of coffee before I started my post.
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post #40 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 09:39 AM
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And... there should be some blame on the consumer. Poor homework, assumptions and false expectations with elaborate, sometimes complex, Home Theater setups/cabling adds to the problem(s).
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post #41 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 10:39 AM
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^^^^^ absolutely!

oops, I see I rolled over to the next page. I agree with Ratman.
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post #42 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 11:10 AM
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I blame my samsung 6 edge phone for all my problems. If it did not come with a free year subscription of netflix. My wallet would be much heavier! Damn Samsung and Netflix! LOL

The sad thing is I did do my homework. I did research. But it was probably too early for the technology at the time. Maybe in the wrong places as well. In the past you didn't really need to do homework on interconnecting devices. They all just worked.

My problems was I decided I wanted dolby atmos so badly! Had to have! Like some pointed out saw the pitfalls in smart tvs. So based on Vizio CTO information on the casting and tv being able to do dolby atmos output all on a 4k tv. I ASSUMED all problems were worked out. Boy was I sorely mistaken.

Too bad the TV manufacturers can't re purpose one of the HDMI inputs to a second HDMI output for audio over a firmware upgrade. I hate saying add another expensive hdmi cable to the mix. But if that solves the problems, so be it.

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post #43 of 63 Old 08-13-2016, 02:43 PM
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^^^^^ I think that's one of the reasons Samsung came up with the OCB (One Connect Box). You basically pay for a panel but all, or at least most of the processing is handled by the OCB. So, as standards change/update, you just purchase a new box when available if it can't be updated via firmware. $300 for a new box with the latest standards etc every two years or so is better than buying a new tv. Or at least, that's the theory. It's also a bit cheaper for Samsung as far as the tv goes and is another revenue stream, which is what it is really all about. However, if your sending a/v to the OCB from longer than about 20', you're still stuck with the HDMI distance limitations unless they do something with the HDMI chipsets on the OCB.
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post #44 of 63 Old 09-02-2016, 10:20 PM
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post #45 of 63 Old 10-09-2016, 07:46 AM
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Ratman does have a point. How often have we seen a poster ask questions that are covered in the stickies
So what ARE those black bars when I watch a movie?

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post #46 of 63 Old 10-09-2016, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
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And... there should be some blame on the consumer. Poor homework, assumptions and false expectations with elaborate, sometimes complex, Home Theater setups/cabling adds to the problem(s).
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^^^^^ absolutely!

oops, I see I rolled over to the next page. I agree with Ratman.
(edited)

I don't. Keep in mind that there is nothing on any box that indicates that you gotta be steeped in AV knowledge to plug a TV into an amp or a BDP or anything else HD related.

These things are sold to folks as turnkey solutions. There is absolutely no culpability on the consumer's part for this one.
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post #47 of 63 Old 10-09-2016, 09:42 AM
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Having a bad day?
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post #48 of 63 Old 10-09-2016, 11:38 AM
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I have no idea why you are bitter.


Anyway. I by no means am an elitist (or an android). I'm believe I'm a realist. There is a ton of info here and perhaps other forums where folks can get good info, recommendations, and suggestions. I've been here long enough to experience that most come to AVS "after the fact" when something doesn't work to their expectations. These problems range from cables, repeaters, switches, TV's over fireplaces, distance, converters, adapters, AVR's, compatibility, etc. etc.


IMO, it seems that many only come here 'after' they have problems for assistance after the setup/work has been completed based on recommendations from a young salesperson in a B&M store. Just sayin'... (refer to post #40).
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I have no idea why you are bitter.


Anyway. I by no means am an elitist (or an android). I'm believe I'm a realist. There is a ton of info here and perhaps other forums where folks can get good info, recommendations, and suggestions. I've been here long enough to experience that most come to AVS "after the fact" when something doesn't work to their expectations. These problems range from cables, repeaters, switches, TV's over fireplaces, distance, converters, adapters, AVR's, compatibility, etc. etc.


IMO, it seems that many only come here 'after' they have problems for assistance after the setup/work has been completed based on recommendations from a young salesperson in a B&M store. Just sayin'... (refer to post #40).
No, no no, Android as in the phone OS. Android vs. IOS. A completely different thing. I would have deleted my post but I thought it better to say "sorry" to keep the context because you didn't quote me. I rephrased the original, and deleted the intermediate post.

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post #50 of 63 Old 10-29-2016, 06:55 AM
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I haven't posted in a while, but chiming in here to say that I'm looking for some solution to this. I'm a pastor, church I work at just spent $9000 on an AV projection for a youth/meeting room. And the Denon X1300W that the company installed won't allow my macbook pro to play nice with the system. Screen flashes black every 3-4 seconds, which seems to indicate that their is an interference in the HDCP chain. I've plugged the computer directly into the projector and that works no problem. It's the Denon. And it's driving me nuts. I've ordered one of those splitters on Amazon but hoping that I don't have to rely on a shady workaround for the rest of the life of the system.
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post #51 of 63 Old 10-29-2016, 06:55 AM
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looks like i was just a lurker before! first post.^
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post #52 of 63 Old 11-17-2016, 12:36 PM
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I haven't posted in a while, but chiming in here to say that I'm looking for some solution to this. I'm a pastor, church I work at just spent $9000 on an AV projection for a youth/meeting room. And the Denon X1300W that the company installed won't allow my macbook pro to play nice with the system. Screen flashes black every 3-4 seconds, which seems to indicate that their is an interference in the HDCP chain. I've plugged the computer directly into the projector and that works no problem. It's the Denon. And it's driving me nuts. I've ordered one of those splitters on Amazon but hoping that I don't have to rely on a shady workaround for the rest of the life of the system.
It's worth saying that Apple is extremely complicit in their buy in to HDCP 100% with extreme prejudice against efficiency.

That is, in the real world, especially as a commercial installer of high-end A/V, we constantly run into issues with Apple products. They simply suck. They enforce HDCP on all connections, whether it is needed or not.

Now, your issue may be well beyond that in your setup. There's no obvious reason to be using an A/V receiver unless you are in a true surround sound environment. Instead you should have an audio DSP and proper speakers throughout for listening. If there is surround sound, then the receiver may be a good thing. You may, at the end, need a HDMI switcher ahead of the Denon to pass video directly to the display separately. Perhaps something with audio breakout to feed the Denon appropriately.

A HDMI splitter, if it solves the issue is not a band-aid, it really is the fix. We've done multi-million dollar installations which we've used HDMI splitters in because they remove the HDCP and allow video to be passed properly. We can't fix Motorola or Cisco, so we have to work around their flaws. This is NOT something that the installation company could anticipate or necessarily just 'fix'. This issue is really between Denon and Apple, not because something was poorly installed. But, it may be worth a call to the integrator to find out if they have any ideas. My first idea would be to use a splitter, as you intend to do. Next I would use a HDMI splitter dedicated for the Apple product to send video directly to the display and bypass the Denon for video. It really can be a headache.
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post #53 of 63 Old 11-17-2016, 12:40 PM
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Oh - and my top complaint, beyond a crudtastic certification process is how HDMI handles audio.

Stereo audio should be required.
Surround sound should be an option.
Both should be concurrent and the device chooses either surround sound, stereo, or both, for audio.

That way you can pull out a stereo feed for a second or third zone without any impact to the surround audio. This is way up there with the top headache I hear from people who are using HDMI in anything beyond a basic setup. "Why is my audio in stereo?" Because HDMI sucks. 40 channels of audio available, and they refuse to insist that stereo is always there, and surround sound be on separate channels.

My entire switcher setup uses DSP input cards which down-mix HD audio to stereo while retaining the surround mix for my family room and theater locations. It's nice, but a painful way to do things.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
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post #54 of 63 Old 11-18-2016, 07:26 AM
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Oh - and my top complaint, beyond a crudtastic certification process is how HDMI handles audio.

Stereo audio should be required.
Surround sound should be an option.
Both should be concurrent and the device chooses either surround sound, stereo, or both, for audio.

That way you can pull out a stereo feed for a second or third zone without any impact to the surround audio. This is way up there with the top headache I hear from people who are using HDMI in anything beyond a basic setup. "Why is my audio in stereo?" Because HDMI sucks. 40 channels of audio available, and they refuse to insist that stereo is always there, and surround sound be on separate channels.

My entire switcher setup uses DSP input cards which down-mix HD audio to stereo while retaining the surround mix for my family room and theater locations. It's nice, but a painful way to do things.
A variant of this concept is slowly leaking its way into the public consciousness even for streaming. Amazon had to refund me my rental money because the only way that I could rent Tron: Legacy was with the center channel thrown out onto the floor by my mother in law's Vizio and no "stereo only" option. This is a mini-disaster, and I wouldn't be surprised if center speakers don't find their way into even discount TVs in the future, or at the very least, if all TVs soon implement a streaming bleed together for center channel information. It's amazing to me that there still is a problem with this from time to time.

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post #55 of 63 Old 12-19-2016, 01:39 PM
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The bigger problem with HDMI is that it's only manfacturers and industry insiders that are working on the standard. There is no representation from the consumer side.

Anyone can become a member of the HDMI Forum and participate in the standards activities. I think it's $10,000/year to become a member, and then probably another $10,000/year for traveling to the various meetings, plus whatever the salary / cost of living of that person is. I don't think this is out of reach for a consumer advocacy group. CTA is about the same, but without the travel budget, their work groups meet by telephone/webex only.

This could at least bring a voice for the consumer into the marketing and technical discussions. So far it's up to the manufacturers to think up new features and whether they are capable of implementing them. They have to take consumer demand for such features into consideration, but there is no direct participation. Another dynamic is that of competition between the participating companies, each one wants to have things in the standard they can implement, and keep stuff from others out that they can not.

Of course, this would not cover the HDCP side of things. That is a closed corporate standard, and it's use is mainly dictated by the content providers, i.e. the movie and TV studios. There is nothing in the HDMI standards that mandates the use of HDCP.
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post #56 of 63 Old 01-23-2017, 05:36 AM
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MORE ON THE PRELIMINARY HDMI 2.1 SPECIFICATION:

https://hdguru.com/hdmi-2-1-to-bring...ce/#more-20434

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post #57 of 63 Old 04-27-2017, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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and for those thinking of waiting for HDMI 2.1:

Should I Wait For 2.1 HDMI Before Purchasing?

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
HDMI.org:what a mess this is a red flag issue
HDCP = Hollywood's Draconian Copy Protection system
Test Reports HDMI Cables that support 18GBPS&HDMI 2.0b
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post #58 of 63 Old 07-28-2017, 08:58 AM
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Just my 2 cents here. I had a 60hz humm in my system After 3 weeks of detective works, a technician gave me a solution: plug a rca cable to whatever input you wnat in your receiver and whatever output from you set-top box. Humm gone.
One month ago I change 1 hdmi cable between the bdpalyer and the receiver and (for a reason) I disconnected the rca . Guess what: humm gone ! Bad hdmi ground pin was the cuprit!

My system 5.1 :ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 804 D2; surround : B&W 704 and center B&W HTM4d2 /sub SVS PC 2000 / TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co. PEQ by nanoAvr-DL Dirac Live between CXU and receiver
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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post #59 of 63 Old 09-01-2017, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
Here is the thread where you can vent your frustration on the terrible state of the HDMI 'one connector' solution

With the advent of 4K and HDR, the issues of getting a stable, reliable HDMI connection are so bad, that I fear many average consumers will return their new products and simply refuse to participate. Here are some problems I read on AVS everyday:

-HDMI cables marked certified do not always work
-HDMI cables longer than (insert your distance here: say 20 feet) do not work
-AVR's/processors used as repeater devices are problematic: now you need two HDMI cables: wonder who thought that one up?
-ARC/CEC poorly implemented
-setup of a new 4K display, and HDR sources, cannot be easily done by the average consumer

this is only a partial list: why would the HDMI organization make it so difficult? the idea of the HDMI connector was to simplify cabling so all devices would require only a single cable and it would be plug and play? it is a real mess and I think the industry should be ashamed

Feel free to vent your frustrations here: but please keep it civil and stick to technical issues
I found this thread from your signature, Mark, and I thought members might be interested in a thread I started over on AVForums back in 2010 when I was waiting for the release of the Audiolab 8200AP. It isn't technical in nature but resulted in some good discussion: https://www.avforums.com/threads/is-...-evil.1218726/.

Enjoy the read.
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Last edited by Orange_GT3; 09-04-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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post #60 of 63 Old 09-04-2017, 09:55 AM
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From Sound And Vision Magazine:

"What's the problem with HDMI Audio Return Channel"

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...return-channel
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