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post #1 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs down HDMI.org: what a mess

Here is the thread where you can vent your frustration on the terrible state of the HDMI 'one connector' solution

With the advent of 4K and HDR, the issues of getting a stable, reliable HDMI connection are so bad, that I fear many average consumers will return their new products and simply refuse to participate. Here are some problems I read on AVS everyday:

-HDMI cables marked certified do not always work
-HDMI cables longer than (insert your distance here: say 20 feet) do not work
-AVR's/processors used as repeater devices are problematic: now you need two HDMI cables: wonder who thought that one up?
-ARC/CEC poorly implemented
-setup of a new 4K display, and HDR sources, cannot be easily done by the average consumer

this is only a partial list: why would the HDMI organization make it so difficult? the idea of the HDMI connector was to simplify cabling so all devices would require only a single cable and it would be plug and play? it is a real mess and I think the industry should be ashamed

Feel free to vent your frustrations here: but please keep it civil and stick to technical issues

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
HDMI.org:what a mess this is a red flag issue
HDCP = Hollywood's Draconian Copy Protection system
Test Reports HDMI Cables that support 18GBPS&HDMI 2.0b

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post #2 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 06:05 AM
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Two of the biggest failures with HDMI are HDMI/CEC and HDMI/ARC. The former has limited functionality (even when all of your devices are from the same manufacturer), and the latter is virtually useless due to its lack of support for advanced audio codecs like DTA-HD MA & Dolby TrueHD. Try using both features at once, and you're likely to encounter random input switching on your AVR, along with episodes of complete loss of audio from some of your devices.

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post #3 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 08:17 AM
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^^^^^ lack of standardization on the CEC protocols. It certainly would have been nice if HDMI.org settled on one set and told hardware mfrs if they wanted to use ARC/CEC, there would only be one set approved <sigh>. It took HDMI 2.0 with the CEC Extensions to take care of that but too little too late.
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post #4 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
...why would the HDMI organization make it so difficult? the idea of the HDMI connector was to simplify cabling so all devices would require only a single cable and it would be plug and play?
HDMI.org sets the "standard", they don't make the cable(s). I don't think they "test/certify" every HDMI hardware/software interface from every potential device either. They just "set the rules" collect a fee and it's up to those that pay a licensing fee to adhere/comply. I'm sure that many cut corners or use their interpretation.


The "HDMI" complaints go back well before UHD and 4K. Nothing new and it ain't gonna get better IMO.
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post #5 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
HDMI.org sets the "standard", they don't make the cable(s). I don't think they "test/certify" every HDMI hardware/software interface from every potential device either. They just "set the rules" collect a fee and it's up to those that pay a licensing fee to adhere/comply. I'm sure that many cut corners or use their interpretation.
the blame falls squarely on HDMI.org for setting standards that are unobtainable, and not providing sufficient guidance or test certification to help enforce their standards, in my opinion: I would not give them a pass on this mess: they helped create it

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HDMI.org:what a mess this is a red flag issue
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post #6 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 10:39 AM
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By no means am I suggesting they get a pass!


I don't think I would agree that the blame falls squarely on HDMI.org


Their piece of the market is the "standard" setter and licensing fee collector, not the "enforcement" patrol. AFAIK, there is no "official" compliance/certification process, so that is part of the problem. Secondly... if that was mandatory, the cost(s) would be passed on to the consumer.


Thirdly, the consumer has some skin in the too. Seems like everyone wants to have ungodly distances, switches, splitters, active/passive cables, PC's, AVR's..... etc.




Don't get me wrong. I sympathize and agree that HDMI isn't all it was/is cracked up to be. And... hasn't been for well over a decade. How does this get resolved? I don't think HDMI is going away. Other than possibly Display Port (which doesn't seem widely available), it is the only port in this storm.
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post #7 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 11:54 AM
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HDMI.org took a small step in the right direction by coming up with certification standards that are followed by various Authorized Testing Centers (ATC's), and registered the name Premium High Speed HDMI, with a counterfeit proof (so far) label so the consumer has a vague idea of what they are purchasing, but unfortunately their testing protocols are not universally accepted so "certification" can mean just about anything. HDMI has been a problematic technology since its inception (a good idea but poorly implemented). HDMI.org should have been more proactive in licensing and testing but it is what it is. I do find them at fault for the mess we are in today and I just don't see it getting any better. Panel technology has far outpaced connection technology and unless something changes on the mfr side of things (Display Port, MHL, etc) it's only going to get worse especially for folk who need a reliable and stable connection longer than about 20'- 25' for the high end video standards.
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post #8 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the Hollywood group that is behind these HDCP protocols should be called out on this debacle: each member should be required to setup his own 4K HDR system without assistance as a start to see what they created

These HDCP protocols are so out of control it is going to turn off the average consumer: if every AVS member responds 'that is the way it is' then it will only get worse

I started warning about copy protection flags and HDCP over 10 yeas ago: but never imagined it could get this bad: this is a bureaucracy out of control: I protest and say this must be fixed

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HDMI.org:what a mess this is a red flag issue
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post #9 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
-HDMI cables marked certified do not always work
-HDMI cables longer than (insert your distance here: say 20 feet) do not work
Agree, there should have been better testing & certification from the beginning. It almost too late to even do anything about it now. Of course, the core problem is the attempt to preserve cabling standards as bandwidth increased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
-AVR's/processors used as repeater devices are problematic: now you need two HDMI cables: wonder who thought that one up?
I am not sure I understand this point here? Are you saying that AVRs shouldn't be used as repeaters or are you talking about the fact that older AVRs can't support the new standards so you need two connections?

If it is the latter, I am not sure what you do about that. Bandwidth needs are changing at a meteoric rate and content providers continue to insist on changing the ineffective copy protection schemes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
-setup of a new 4K display, and HDR sources, cannot be done by the average consumer
Is this really an HDMI issue?

Quote:
Two of the biggest failures with HDMI are HDMI/CEC and HDMI/ARC.
I agree with this. Moreover, this seems to be getting worse not better as time passes. Not only does ARC have serious bandwidth limitations but the intermingling of ARC with CEC causes havoc with all the varying implementations.
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post #10 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalto View Post

I am not sure I understand this point here? Are you saying that AVRs shouldn't be used as repeaters or are you talking about the fact that older AVRs can't support the new standards so you need two connections?

If it is the latter, I am not sure what you do about that. Bandwidth needs are changing at a meteoric rate and content providers continue to insist on changing the ineffective copy protection schemes.
not at all: I am saying 4K HDR devices should work properly with HDMI repeater devices such as receivers and processors: it should be plug and play: that was the promise of HDMI

edit: I understand the bandwidth issue but even the latest processors are having issues with HDR: all the manufacturers blame incompatibility issues on other connected devices: there is zero accountability on making it work

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
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post #11 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
not at all: I am saying 4K HDR devices should work properly with HDMI repeater devices such as receivers and processors: it should be plug and play: that was the promise of HDMI
LOL! your check's in the mail and...


EVERYONE feels the pain. So, suggestions as to how to get it resolved?
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post #12 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 12:50 PM
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not at all: I am saying 4K HR devices should work properly with HDMI repeater devices such as receivers and processors: it should be plug and play: that was the promise of HDMI
I guess I am not familiar with the issues people are having as it relates to this. I have had no problems in this regard. As long as everything in the chain supports the latest HDMI/HDCP standards it has been plug and play.
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post #13 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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EVERYONE feels the pain. So, suggestions as to how to get it resolved?
perhaps it could start here by calling out the industry and saying this should not be allowed to happen: I am serious

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post #14 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

EVERYONE feels the pain. So, suggestions as to how to get it resolved?
The only way that I see is to hit the mfrs (tv''s and cables) where it hurts, in the pocketbook. But that's really only a fantasy because that would mean we'd have to stop purchasing the latest and greatest toys and we all know that's not gonna happen. And there are lots of folks who have no problem at shorter distances and others who buy the "latest" and haven't a clue as to what they really have, want, or need. PQ always looks good on most brand new tv's so my guess is the average consumer doesn't really know the difference between 1080p, HDR, WCG, ad naseum. To call out the industry (which I agree should be done) would take some heavy weights to throw in with us disgruntled consumers.....
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post #15 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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there is another option...look here:

Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread

you should not need to buy a $2k meter to get EDID's set up properly:

consider a cloud app that reads all connected devices, and automatically adjusts settings as needed, and provides detail steps for user intervention as required:
HDMI.org or some other company e.g. HD Fury could develop this app and charge for it

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post #16 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
The only way that I see is to hit the mfrs (tv''s and cables) where it hurts, in the pocketbook. But that's really only a fantasy because that would mean we'd have to stop purchasing the latest and greatest toys and we all know that's not gonna happen. ...
And there ya go.


AVS is a great platform to get things addressed. Start a class action lawsuit? Boycott HDMI? Stop buying A/V gear?


I'm really serious. How do you propose these issues get addressed? AVS is a good launching platform to get things rolling.


Again, from Memory Lane:
Countless HDMI Complaints
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post #17 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 02:37 PM
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I'm really serious. How do you propose these issues get addressed? AVS is a good launching platform to get things rolling.
That is the question isn't it. Maybe if the Admins etc of AVS put together some sort of complaint, petition, poll, what ever, get the members to participate (which wouldn't be hard) and then have someone at AVS with influence present that to the industry. Otherwise the only current options are to purchase all new devices and hope they are compatible, or keep your cable runs under 20'. Both of which are not satisfactory. It's becoming less and less glamorous to be an early adopter. But dammit Jim, we need those early adopters so the rest of us can learn what works and what doesn't before we spend our money!
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post #18 of 63 Old 07-25-2016, 03:00 PM
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The unfortunate part is that there are soooo many permutations/configurations for HDMI. I really sympathize.
Wait till 8K becomes available. The only HDMI cable that will work will probably be limited to 3' and must be 18AWG. And.... incompatible with all of your existing (perfectly working) gear purchased a few years ago.


Perhaps a new president will make "A/V Great Again".




EDIT:
There are a few "contributing editors" from trade rags that participate on AVS. Maybe they can help?

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post #19 of 63 Old 07-26-2016, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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another idea is for an AVS member who is an expert on HDMI could start an FAQ thread on HDMI best practices:

for example first FAQ item might look like:

--avoid using CEC/ARC labeled HDMI inputs if you are not using CEC/ARC functions, and be sure all menu settings are off for CEC/ARC

if anyone is interested PM me

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post #20 of 63 Old 07-26-2016, 06:16 AM
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The technology underlying HDMI is actually super simple. Basically, it's a 19-pin connector. A lot could be done with that with pure simplicity, but nnnnooooooo. HDCP has to go and totally foul it up. That, and cable manufacturers not adhering to some simple standards. Anybody else miss the good ol' days of RCA connections? Technical limitations aside, they were no fuss, no muss. It just worked. Wanna toss on splitters, couplers, whatever? Need to run a bazillion feet of cable? No problem.

At the root of it, HDMI had the potential to be just awesome. Digital audio and hi-def video passed through one standardized connection. Shouldn't be nearly as difficult as the industry (and Hollywood) has made it out to be. The idea of CEC/ARC was great. No clue why every TV/AVR manufacturer saw fit to do it all completely differently. Just get on the same page, everybody!!! (which yes, I know pretty much never happens)
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post #21 of 63 Old 07-26-2016, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
another idea is for an AVS member who is an expert on HDMI could start an FAQ thread on HDMI best practices:

for example first FAQ item might look like:

--avoid using CEC/ARC labeled HDMI inputs if you are not using CEC/ARC functions, and be sure all menu settings are off for CEC/ARC

if anyone is interested PM me
I actually started to work on a FAQ for HDMI cabling etc quite some time ago but gave it up because there were just too many permutations with setups, expectations, and user knowledge. That became particularly complicated when some folks were claiming 4k, 4:4:4 @ 60Hz over 25' with a particular cable. Other folks would purchase the same cable and get nothing, even at the same length. I gave up. Until the Industry comes out with a distance claim (certification, what ever you want to call it), and some way to reliably extend that distance (upgraded, compatible chipsets in active terminators like Redmere or HDBT), this is going to get worse before it gets better. It's almost as if we, the consumers, have to put together some sort of consortium like HDMI.org did so many years ago and push for standardization on a given platform, and then make sure the device mfrs follow that.
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post #22 of 63 Old 08-03-2016, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^

I understand an FAQ trying to get into every permutation is a near impossible task

But how about something like this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/301-av...l#post35508706

My thought is there should be some standard guidelines so new members had a place to start

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post #23 of 63 Old 08-03-2016, 12:58 PM
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My thought is there should be some standard guidelines so new members had a place to start
Like reading sticky threads before posting?


Sorry... I had a chuckle moment.


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post #24 of 63 Old 08-03-2016, 06:15 PM
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Ratman does have a point. How often have we seen a poster ask questions that are covered in the stickies
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post #25 of 63 Old 08-03-2016, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
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I guess I am not familiar with the issues people are having as it relates to this. I have had no problems in this regard. As long as everything in the chain supports the latest HDMI/HDCP standards it has been plug and play.
Well, certain equipment syncs differently and if the AVR gets any type of desync for a second while the refresh rate is changed from 60p to 24p there can be a failure to do the handshake and you get a HDCP error that spits out at you. Or you can get no error but somewhere along the way you get a black screen every so often for a few seconds at a time while the playback device attempts to handshake with the AVR which attempts to pass that through to the TV. If everything in the chain isn't playing nice, you can have these types of things happen. Just look at the Samsung K8500 thread here to get an idea. Numerous reports of people having HDCP errors when running through their AVR. Sometimes it's the cable, sometimes not.

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post #26 of 63 Old 08-07-2016, 11:30 AM
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Lest we forget Firewire

What I find amazing is how apparently short the memory of how HDTV came to be is, or how few some realize what had happened in the Firewire (1394) verses HDMI debacle several years ago.. There was a time when 1394 was the standard for connection and transport of HDTV signal (2001).

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...uSIU5dlTOOy.97

Firewire It was already a well excepted standard, allowed for transport of compressed video, along with audio and control signal between equipment, all of the things HDMI is still trying to achieve today. Secondly, every engineer worth their salt knows that transporting the video in a compressed format (as it comes off of the player) and uncompressing it at the final point of display is a superior method to transporting video. The signal remain unmodified until the moment it is needed for display, and the bandwidth necessary to support the video stream is significantly reduced. This reduced bandwidth can thus also carry the signal further on a given cable than uncompressed video. We would not be facing the length limitations of HDMI that we are today. The blame is with SONY and others of the HDMI consortium who, for the sake of copy protection, decided that extremely high bit rate of an uncompressed bitstream would be almost impossible to re-record, and all of the bits of hardware and software between the source and display would have to be licensed by them. HDMI is the most anti-consumer technology foisted on the unsuspecting public in many years. Again, lest you forget, the old SONY (the electronics company) fought for your right to record and copy material (SONY BetaMax supreme court decision). The new SONY (media conglomerate) fights to keep you from recording or maximizing the enjoyment of your equipment. You can complain all you want now. I just wish there had been more voices back when when we could have truly had it all.
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post #27 of 63 Old 08-07-2016, 12:41 PM
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Didn't evolve. Manufacturers didn't embrace the technology for one reason or another.
Any thoughts as to if HDMI never existed, do you think that there would be no problems with DTCP and distance issues with the 2016 technologies (or especially consumer's high expectations with exotic setups for under $100) ?
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post #28 of 63 Old 08-07-2016, 08:18 PM
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DTCP didn't have to exist

So I don't know for sure, but since firewire is a serial connector, I don't think the opportunity for conductor length skew would exist (as it does in HDMI or DVI). Firewire was designed a a two-way connectivity standard, unlike HDMI. The FCC even saw the sense in this and mandated 1394 connectors - for a time. But maybe more importantly, if DTCP didn't need to exist at all, along with all of the other issues brought to you by your control freak HDMI consortium, we would not have these connectivity issues. HDMI is like a bad dream that I hope we wake up from soon.

Free Mickey!!! Save America....
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post #29 of 63 Old 08-07-2016, 09:53 PM
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I'm no expert at either HDMI or HDCP but I believe that in order to advance this discussion, we need to separate the physical wiring standard (HDMI) from the communications protocol standard (HDCP). Again I don't know for sure but having read some of the threads, I believe that most of the interconnect issues that the OP mentions are most likely the result of failures of the protocol between devices. Anyone who has studied successful I/T or communications protocols knows that you need to have a mechanism for understanding what went wrong when something doesn't work as expected .. and that seems to be a fundamental flaw in HDCP .. the user has no idea why things don't work.

If this was an I/T system, you'd just dive into the error log; look at the handshakes; and figure it out .. but there is no HDCP 'error log' that I know of that you can consult to try to understand why the handshake is failing. Ideally, someone needs to create a small, preferably handheld HDMI to HDMI device (that you could buy at BB or your favorite retailer) which you could insert at any connection point that would 'watch' the protocol flow for anomalies and then output an error code that you could look up in the chart that came with it (or online) which would be the best guess as to why the handshake failed.

This wouldn't be a 'repeater' as much as it would be an 'inline sniffer' and diagnostic unit in one. It wouldn't be like the auto OBD II diagnostic machine because OBD assumes that your car has already saved some error states that the diagnostic machine just analyzes .. in the HDCP scenario, I don't believe there are any 'error codes' saved anywhere .. and even if they were, they'd likely be inside a component (AVR; UHD player; projector; etc) and you'd likely need a brand engineer to extract them. What I'm suggesting is a device which analyzes the flow in real time and attempts to diagnose what the likely cause is. I think the communications industry has tools like this that they've been using for years although I don't know if they're using them to look at protocols (eg. TCP/IP).

The beauty of something like this is that you could plug it in at either end of any cable in the chain so you if you had a UHD player connecting to an AVR outputting to a TV, you could determine whether the protocol failure was between the player and the AVR or the AVR and the TV. Plus you could determine that the AVR was "within protocol spec" at the AVR output connection but at the other end of the cable (TV or projector), it was not within spec. I think only a couple of the many twisted pair with the HDMI connector are used for protocol so it's not like the 'device' would need to monitor a huge number of cables ... and if I recall correctly, the pair or two that are used for HDCP handshakes are at a much lower freq than the 3 that are used for the actual video signal so likely easier/cheaper to monitor. However, to diagnose the sync/desync issues mentioned earlier, you might need a more expensive/capable device to do that as well (the 'deluxe version') although that may be more for industry integrators rather than typical consumers. Heck, maybe even the simple one might be too much for typical consumers .. but I bet people would pay to have the BB Geek squad come out and figure it out for them. Maybe places like Magnolia could offer that as 'part of the deal' to avoid returns.

My recommendation would be to convince the HDMI organization to work with an electronics developer to bring this to market. The developer would design the device; manufacture it; and make it available to the market and HDMI org would provide the expertise on the protocol symptoms and what the most likely error condition is. That way you wouldn't have to deal with all the AV vendors out there plus HDMI gets to put some teeth in whether or not their protocol standards are being met. If vendors are toeing the line, they get called out by the device. Assuming it's an HDMI implementation problem (as opposed to a bad component), the vendors could probably fix it with firmware the same way they do today. If it's a cabling issue, you can probably return the cable and get a different or better one. If it's a length issue, then you move the source closer to the target or invest in a technology which gives you longer length.

.rant off
...Ian

No sooner had I posted this than I discover that someone already builds a similar device: http://www.murideo.com/analyzers.html which appears to be way more than I was asking for (eg.does HDR) and is probably for professionals with a professional price. Now someone needs to scale it down in function and price to something a serious AVSer can afford.
Edit2: Or maybe we just need one of these upgraded to HDCP 2.2 and UHD: https://www.hdfury.com/shop/otherhdf...dware/dr-hdmi/
markrubin and MichiganTim like this.

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Last edited by IanR; 08-07-2016 at 10:11 PM. Reason: added another link
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post #30 of 63 Old 08-07-2016, 09:59 PM
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Our 2 cents, is that you guys in the US should just setup a class action to stop the hdcp non sense, which appears to be just an excuse to force you to buy new gear. You can use generosity by indiegogo to collect funds and signature for that.

It's not just only between revision that interoperability problem occurs, they are volontary removing support within a same revision, like 4K30 output is volontary disappearing so you are forced to buy 4K60, etc...

IMPORTANT: Due to recent discoveries, we are working on a new way to handle Dolby Vision, in the meantime please use AUTOMIX/SINK mode for DV support.
Do not use DV forced flags on Integral, it cannot work with all DV equipment, simply use automix with max video algo and you will be fine until we push new updates out.

Last edited by HDfury; 08-08-2016 at 01:27 AM.
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