Whatever happened with HDMI 2.1? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 64 Old 09-24-2016, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Whatever happened with HDMI 2.1?

Hello,


I believe HDMI 2.0 has been out for a while (in respect to electronics e.g. most electronics become obsolete with 1 to 2 years). It looks like we've far surpassed the capabilities of HDMI 2.0a with HFR, HLG, HDR, etc. I haven't heard any rumors since about a year or so ago about dynamic metadata.
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post #2 of 64 Old 09-25-2016, 08:42 AM
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More information on HDMI 2.1 (dynamic metadata) is supposed to be released sometime this month or possibly in October. It's still to early to tell if the upgrade will be in the form of a firmware push or will actually require new hardware. Apparently some of Samsung's 2016 models will support a firmware upgrade but that is far from certain at this point. Given the current difficulties that a lot of people have pushing 4k, 4:4:4 @60Hz over lengths longer than about 20', HDMI 2.1 may be very challenging indeed.
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post #3 of 64 Old 09-25-2016, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info!
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post #4 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 06:57 AM
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My guess is they will not announce anything until holiday shopping is over. Gazillion dollars will be wasted again.
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post #5 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsvetljo View Post
My guess is they will not announce anything until holiday shopping is over. Gazillion dollars will be wasted again.

I doubt it you'll see anything HDMI 2.1 by then. The release date for the final specs has not been officially determined yet. It will take mfrs another year or so to implement HDMI 2.1 and it's still unclear as to whether it will require new hardware (chipsets) or just a firmware upgrade to the current HDMI 2.0a chipsets. Unfortunately, there are already cable mfrs stating that their HDMI cables are compatible with HDMI 2.1 which is going to do nothing but further confuse the public.
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post #6 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I doubt it you'll see anything HDMI 2.1 by then. The release date for the final specs has not been officially determined yet. It will take mfrs another year or so to implement HDMI 2.1 and it's still unclear as to whether it will require new hardware (chipsets) or just a firmware upgrade to the current HDMI 2.0a chipsets. Unfortunately, there are already cable mfrs stating that their HDMI cables are compatible with HDMI 2.1 which is going to do nothing but further confuse the public.
I think you missed 3 important letters of my comment: N, O, and T
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post #7 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsvetljo View Post
I think you missed 3 important letters of my comment: N, O, and T
No, I didn't miss those letters. But people will just see "holiday shopping season" and think HDMI 2.1 is around the corner, or at least in time for the SuperBowl. Just wait until it gets close to Black Friday or Week. You'll start seeing cable mfrs advertising their cables as HDMI 2.1 compatible.
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post #8 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
No, I didn't miss those letters. But people will just see "holiday shopping season" and think HDMI 2.1 is around the corner, or at least in time for the SuperBowl. Just wait until it gets close to Black Friday or Week. You'll start seeing cable mfrs advertising their cables as HDMI 2.1 compatible.
There area already cables advertised with 2.1 and I wasn't talking about cables.
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post #9 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsvetljo View Post
There area already cables advertised with 2.1 and I wasn't talking about cables.
Cables labeled as "2.anything" should be avoided.
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post #10 of 64 Old 09-28-2016, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsvetljo View Post
There area already cables advertised with 2.1 and I wasn't talking about cables.
Relax. The point is that HDMI 2.1 hasn't even been ratified yet, at least the last time I looked (which was awhile ago). The only white paper I've seen is from Philips. So until the protocols are set and its decided how best to implement them on the devices (hardware or firmware upgrade) worrying about it is useless. The cable comment is valid given the trouble that folks are having now with HDMI 2.0a. It's nice to have the latest and greatest protocols but until the delivery system is reliable, it's all a moot point.

And I agree completely with Ratman. Any cable mfr that labels their cables as such is just pandering to the novice and uneducated and should be avoided at all cost.
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post #11 of 64 Old 09-30-2016, 07:40 AM
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Otto Pylot, (and others) ...

I am considering the purchase of a McIntosh processor MX160 which unfortunately has the 10.2 gbps HDMI chipset, presumably 2.0a (just upgraded from 2.0 via firmaware to pass HDR up to 4K 30p 4:4:4. I know I would be somewhat behind the eightball purchasing it.

My projector is the 5000es with the 18 gbps chipset, and presumably very upgradeable from not only a firmware standpoint, but from a hardware standpoint as well.

What are the odds HDR-10 with Dynamic Metadata will pass via the 10.2 gbps 2.0a chipset in the McIntosh? As I understand, Dolby Vision is super efficient and can even work on a 10.2 chipset. I wonder if the same will be true for HDR-10 Dynamic Metadata, which could possibly mean the signal passing on the MacIntosh?

As far as HLG and HFR, clearly the McIntosh will be forever bottlenecked.

Thoughts?
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post #12 of 64 Old 09-30-2016, 08:21 AM
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^^^^ That's a good question and one that I don't think there is a definitive answer. My knee-jerk response is that you would be limited to whatever 10.2GBps can offer. It can certainly handle 4k, but 4k, 4:4:4 @ 60Hz (which is what everyone wants now) is unlikely due to bandwidth restrictions. Hopefully someone else has a more complete answer. Then there's the HDCP2.2 factor as well.
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post #13 of 64 Old 09-30-2016, 05:24 PM
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Yes, but my main source will be UHD BD movies with HDR, which are 4K 24p 4:4:4 and streaming 4K movies with and without HDR. As such, will the 4K 4:4:4 60p limitation even matter?

As far as HLG, I think that will run on the sub 18 gbps chipsets. The Sony 550 projector is sub 18 gbps and it has this feature, so that is not a concern. The main concern I believe is HDR-10 Dynamic, which as you say, no one presently has the answer if it will pass at 24p 4:4:4 HDR Dynamic with 10.2 gbps chipset.

It seems like the only way to be truly safe would be to wait for the processor to have 2.1, which I would assume will have a mandatory gbps rating of 18.

Last edited by G-Rex; 09-30-2016 at 06:17 PM.
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post #14 of 64 Old 10-01-2016, 05:37 PM
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^^^^ If you can easily swap cables then you should be fine, for now. It's not so much what your hardware can do, it's the pipe (cable).
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post #15 of 64 Old 01-04-2017, 07:57 AM
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http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300384117.html

Quote:
HDMI Forum, Inc. today announced the upcoming release of Version 2.1 of the HDMI Specification. This latest HDMI Specification supports a range of Higher Video Resolutions and refresh rates including 8K60 and 4K120, Dynamic HDR, and increased bandwidth with a new 48G cable. Version 2.1 of the HDMI Specification is backward compatible with earlier versions of the Specification, and was developed by the HDMI Forum's Technical Working Group whose members represent some of the world's leading manufacturers of consumer electronics, personal computers, mobile devices, cables and components.

HDMI Specification 2.1 Features Include:
  • Higher Video Resolutions support a range of higher resolutions and faster refresh rates including 8K60Hz and 4K120Hz for immersive viewing and smooth fast-action detail.
  • Dynamic HDR ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast, and wider color gamuts—on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
  • 48G cables enable up to 48Gbps bandwidth for uncompressed HDMI 2.1 feature support including 8K video with HDR. The cable is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI Specification and can be used with existing HDMI devices.
  • eARC supports the most advanced audio formats such as object-based audio, and enables advanced audio signal control capabilities including device auto-detect.
  • Game Mode VRR features variable refresh rate, which enables a 3D graphics processor to display the image at the moment it is rendered for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, and for reducing or eliminating lag, stutter, and frame tearing.

The new specification will be available to all HDMI 2.0 Adopters and they will be notified when it is released early in Q2 2017.
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post #16 of 64 Old 01-04-2017, 08:58 AM
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^^^^^ that's nice but it's still going to be a problem with the data pipe between source and sink. A 48Gbps cable? What kind of cable? What is the max length of reliability? Is there a standardized certification program available so that the consumer has something to go by? Is the cable reasonably priced? How long will it take for the new specs to be ratified by the HDMI members? When will the new fully compatible chipsets be available for incorporation into devices? New HDMI protocols are great (even though HDMI in general sucks) but the connection technology needs to get its act together otherwise this all looks nice on paper but in a real world situation, you're still going to have the issues that folks do now with 4k, 4:4:4 @60Hz over about 25'.
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post #17 of 64 Old 01-04-2017, 02:15 PM
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It's quite good news about the the HDMI 2.1 spec, but it's still not ready for UHD-2 (7680x4320@120 fps) which may arrive in a few years. It also doesn't seem compatible with 4K 120 fps 3D (the specs of Ang Lee's last film and probably his next one), since it would probably need to be able to do 4K at up to 240 fps in 2D to be able to do 4K 120 fps in 3D (assuming no compression through HDMI). It seems to me HDMI 2.1, even though it's not arrived yet (anyone know when it will arrive?) is less capable than Super-MHL (which has been out a while and can do "8K" at 120 fps).
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post #18 of 64 Old 01-04-2017, 04:58 PM
 
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SuperMHL achieves 8k at 120hz through allowing 420, as HDMI 2.0 should have done with 4k IMO (18 gbps is enough for 2160p @ 120 / 420 chroma in 8 bit or 96hz in 10 bit).

HDMI 2.1 adding VRR is THE big news for gamers. It means finally a chance of getting VRR to a TV. It might also mean having to get a new AVR, although AMD built a Freesync over HDMI 1.4 demo a couple years back so technically it should be possible to do this via a Firmware update. (even at the source end for consoles, since both PS4 and Xbox One's GPUs are Freesync enabled).
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post #19 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 07:14 AM
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From the FAQ on the official HDMI 2.1 announcement:


Quote:
Q: When will the HDMI 2.1 Compliance Test Specification be available?
A: The HDMI 2.1 Compliance Test Specification (CTS) will be published in Q2-Q3 2017.
So, manufacturers may get their hands on the final specs in Q2. But even the compliance testing could still yet be Q3. I just see real world applications and hardware uptake no sooner than mid 2018.
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post #20 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 07:16 AM
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You guys ... they have to leave something for HDMI 2.2.

After all, they follow the law of "logarithmic electronic waste"
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post #21 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 07:59 AM
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Further HDMI 2.1 specs on AnandTech: http://www.anandtech.com/show/11003/...-new-48g-cable
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post #22 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stecchino View Post
From the FAQ on the official HDMI 2.1 announcement:

So, manufacturers may get their hands on the final specs in Q2. But even the compliance testing could still yet be Q3. I just see real world applications and hardware uptake no sooner than mid 2018.
I predict we will all have to become beta testers of yet another set of new spec incompatibilities as these devices are released...
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post #23 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
I predict we will all have to become beta testers of yet another set of new spec incompatibilities as these devices are released...
I'm anxious to be a beta tester
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post #24 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 09:04 AM
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HDMI 2.1
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post #25 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 09:11 AM
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edit: hdmi.org does say that it supports various resolutions and frame rates including 4K at 120 fps and 8K and 10K at 120 fps. It's still strange that the frame rate at 4K can't be 4x the frame rate at 8K though (bandwidth wise it would be exactly the same - with all else being equal). eg. 4K at 480 fps should be the same bandwidth as 8K at 120 fps.

I also don't see anything related to 3D (as in stereoscopic) eg. for 4K 120 fps 3D.

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post #26 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 01:55 PM
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Proposed HMDI 2.1 hardware specs have been in the public domain so awhile now. They are still a long ways off from being commercially available and viable for most consumers.
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post #27 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Proposed HMDI 2.1 hardware specs have been in the public domain so awhile now. They are still a long ways off from being commercially available and viable for most consumers.
What? I have some trouble parsing what you wrote, do you mean that some or all parts of the HDMI 2.1 specification have been leaked publicly? Or, are you saying that hardware that can perform some of the features what the 2.1 announcement allures to, is already available?
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post #28 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 04:16 PM
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The proposed HDMI 2.1 specs have been available. They are not ratified yet so what actually becomes part of the final specs are still to be decided on. A lot of this is more than likely going to go the way HDMI 2.0 did. If you have the current HDMI 2.0a chipsets, there is a possibility that the upgrade will be a firmware push (that's still to be decided). The odds on bet though is that to get fully compliant HDMI 2.1, a hardware upgrade will be necessary. From what I've read, fully compliant HDMI 2.1 chipsets are in production, at least for the sets that will be demoed at CES. When will they be commercially available is unknown. This is sort of like when Sony flashed HDMI 1.4 to 10.2Gbps and called that HDMI 2.0, because 10.2Gbps is the lower end of the HDMI 2.0 spec. The point is that it is too early to be getting all excited about HDMI 2.1. Certainly keep an eye on it but early adopters will certainly get burned like the early adopters of HDMI 2.0. Besides, unless your equipment is within about 10' of each other, how you gonna get the signal reliably to your panel, unless you go with fiber optic? There is going to be a lot of snake oil selling going on very soon.
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post #29 of 64 Old 01-05-2017, 06:34 PM
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OK, now I understand.

Yes, HDMI 2.1 will be an incremental list of new features. Any HDMI device can choose to implement any new features, or not. Because of this, HDMI shys away from calling devices by version number, and instead want manufacturers to use the actual feature names. Like "HDMI 3D" or "DeepColor" or 18 GBit/s.

So, yes, there will be devices that can, and will, implement some of the new features specified in HDMI 2.1, on existing hardware, with just a firmware upgrade. These devices would technically be "HDMI 2.1" devices, even though you are not supposed to call them that.

I think we'll likely see stuff like 2160p120 4:2:0 on 18 Gbit/s hardware (if that turns out to be a mode now allowed), or some other of the new CTA-861-G video timings that fall within the realm of the possible.

It will be less likely to see advanced features, like 48 Gbit/s, Dynamic HDR, or eARC, on existing hardware, imo.
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post #30 of 64 Old 01-06-2017, 01:39 AM
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Among the news, how do you guys interpret this point "The new specification will be available to all HDMI 2.0 Adopters and they will be notified when it is released early in Q2 2017." ?

It seems a bit vague.
By "HDMI 2.0 Adopters" do they refer to the manufacturers, or to us, the users/buyers ?

Does this means there is a chance that users/owners of 2016 AV Receivers models with HDMI 2.0 may receive a firmware update from the manufacturer to upgrade our 2016 AV Receivers models to HDMI 2.1 specs ?
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