IEEE 1394 output from BD player?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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forgive me if it's been posted I didn't see it.
Are any of the BD players supporting a IEEE 1394 output?
I'm already using the 2 HDMI ports on my Mitsu 65732 and wouldn't mind a firewire hookup.

Thanks

PS3 & A2 = Format Neutral
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post #2 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 05:59 AM
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I wish, the pioneer elite unit should have it, but doesn't.
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post #3 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 06:44 AM
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yeah, I need IEEE1394 as well.
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post #4 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kschmit2 View Post

yeah, I need IEEE1394 as well.

I would love the next Pio to have it. I wish my HD1 had it now.

Ray Cathode
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post #5 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 09:47 AM
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Firewire is pretty useless for a majority of people. What will be the best usage of 1394 on BD players? for mch audio? SA-CD/DVD-A? Video would need a decoder for the other codecs no? Now I understand the use if it was a recorder.
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post #6 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 05:41 PM
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I really want 1394 from a BD player for i-Link to my amp.

From what I hear, TrueHD over HDMI will have so much jitter on it that it won't sound any better than 16.44 audio .

Nick
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post #7 of 29 Old 12-23-2006, 11:50 PM
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Are you talking about i.Link/firewire for audio or video?

I really wish they have i.Link audio support for the current crops of Blu-ray (and HD-DVD) players. Heck! Pioneer should have put that in to send out multi-channels LPCM for Blu-ray movies since their top of the line receivers support i.Link audio and multi-channels PCM!
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post #8 of 29 Old 12-24-2006, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I really want 1394 from a BD player for i-Link to my amp.

From what I hear, TrueHD over HDMI will have so much jitter on it that it won't sound any better than 16.44 audio .

Nick

For craps sake TrueHD over HDMI is digital. So it either works or doesn't work. There is no way that it could worh 50% or anything like that. There just is no possibility for the sound to degrade in such a way that it sounds worse but yet works.
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post #9 of 29 Old 12-24-2006, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I really want 1394 from a BD player for i-Link to my amp.

From what I hear, TrueHD over HDMI will have so much jitter on it that it won't sound any better than 16.44 audio .

Nick

Who told you such absurd thing. It is absolutely not true. i-Link is pretty much dead now as far as audio transmission. Besides i-Link does not support TrueHD, DTS MA HD or any new audio codecs. There are very few amps with i-Link and many companies are dropping it altogether, for example Yamaha.
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post #10 of 29 Old 12-24-2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latexxx View Post

For craps sake TrueHD over HDMI is digital. So it either works or doesn't work. There is no way that it could worh 50% or anything like that. There just is no possibility for the sound to degrade in such a way that it sounds worse but yet works.

That's your opinion.
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post #11 of 29 Old 12-25-2006, 05:36 AM
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IEEE 1394 output from BD player??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

forgive me if it's been posted I didn't see it.
Are any of the BD players supporting a IEEE 1394 output?
I'm already using the 2 HDMI ports on my Mitsu 65732 and wouldn't mind a firewire hookup.

Thanks

I have the same TV and dillemma as my HD-DVR(comcast) and upconverting DVD player are using up my HDMI inputs. I just got a PS3--I will try hooking up one of my HD sources to the DVI input via a HDMI/DVI cable. Has anybody thought of this or tried it?? any Success??

at somepoint you stop the research and just buy it
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post #12 of 29 Old 12-26-2006, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNA View Post

Who told you such absurd thing. It is absolutely not true. i-Link is pretty much dead now as far as audio transmission. Besides i-Link does not support TrueHD, DTS MA HD or any new audio codecs. There are very few amps with i-Link and many companies are dropping it altogether, for example Yamaha.

iLink doesn't need to support any of these codecs. It supports multi-channel PCM. Pretty much like HDMI 1.0 now. So at least in theory it should be failrly simple to do it.
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post #13 of 29 Old 12-26-2006, 09:18 AM
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Ah mainly for audio? That should nout be as much work. I was thinking for audio and video would require new audio and video codec support to decode.
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post #14 of 29 Old 12-27-2006, 06:42 AM
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Well, it sounds like there are a few sceptics who may need to be enlightened. That's not too surprising, but I find the hostility, rudeness, and closed minds a bit more unexpected and disappointing.

There are generally two things that a player needs to pass to a DAC or Av amp - amplitude information and timing information. Both are needed by a DAC to decode the digital samples from a disc (any disc). To the best of my knowledge, bit errors are not an issue unless a disc is dirty or damaged , so pretty much any player can read and replay digital audio bits without errors. So yes, bits are bits.

To accurately reproduce an analogue waveform from a digital signal, both the amplitude and time values have to be accurate. It's like plotting a graph of a wave on graph paper - both the x and y co-ordinates have to be correct for every point. Getting the amplitude right doesn't seem to be the biggest problem - the timing info from the player has to be right, too, and that is corrupted by jitter.

Unfortunately, the timing info is embedded in the amplitude info in SPDIF, and the latter currupts for former. Digital audio over HDMI is packed differently, but the principle and the problems are the same. Audiophiles are starting to think that they may be worse. Although HDMI may indeed have a independant clock synchronisation channel, that only supports the timing of the video signal - not the audio signal at all. Digital audio over HDMI appears to have jitter that is just as bad, if not worse, than SPDIF. And SPDIF was not good enough to recover all the fidelity from CDs without I2S bus, iLink, Denon Link re-clocking or a separate external clock synchronisation connection.

And if the jitter on SPDIF is not good enough to realise the potential of 44/16 audio, then what is the point in pursuing 96/24 audio over a connection with worse jitter? This isn't just supposition; there are many people who have reported benefits from using iLink instead of SPDIF, and Denon Link is reputed to be better still (though I don't have any experience of that).

I think it's quite clear that the undoubted and considerable benefits of TrueHD won't be realised without a better way of connecting it than HDMI. A different architecture is going to be required, and since iLink can carry secure HD multi-channel 96/24 audio like HDMI V1.1 can now, it would be an ideal medium. Granted, it doesn't fit into the one-cable-fits-all, convenient, blind rush to adopt HDMI. But I know that many of the audiophile manufacturers are concerned about the possiblity of a backwards step with HDMI, and are looking at other ways to crack the nut. For myself, I really hope that iLink will make it into forthcoming BD & HD players.

Best regards, Nick
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post #15 of 29 Old 12-27-2006, 08:41 AM
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A few things.

A. PCM doesn't transmit any timing values over spdif. It only send first "this ****'s 44.1kHz" and after that only amplitude values and the dac then produces sound as it gets audio information. If some samples are early and some later it doesn't matter as long as the difference is smaller than 1/44.1k s in the case of cd audio. And even if the difference would be larger it would be inaudible as it would require at least hundreds of samples for the break to become long enough for us to hear. And it wouldn't sound crap. It would just click.

B. In case of compressed audio there won't be any individual samples transmitted. In stead the signal is transmitted in blocks (e.g. which represent 512 samples in ac3). Then we also have the sample rate. and whooz. again we don't need precise timing information as it is enough that we stay in the region 512 samples.

To conclude. Spdif doesn't transmit any timing info per se and as such jitter doesn't matter because the length of individual frames or samples is pretty long in digital domain.
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post #16 of 29 Old 12-27-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

It's like plotting a graph of a wave on graph paper - both the x and y co-ordinates have to be correct for every point. Getting the amplitude right doesn't seem to be the biggest problem - the timing info from the player has to be right, too, and that is corrupted by jitter.

There is one difference. The points in time axel are fixed and you don't need to transmit them. It is enough to know in which sample we are going.
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post #17 of 29 Old 12-27-2006, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latexxx View Post

There is one difference. The points in time axis are fixed and you don't need to transmit them. It is enough to know in which sample we are going.

You've put you're finger on it there.

They're not!

I have to admit that was a surprise to me when I found out, but it's quite clear that the timing information does usually come from the transport clock. It's the word clock, and it is transmitted in SPDIF, but not in iLink (not sure about Denon Link). It's a function of the architecture of the digital replay chain, which is quite different to professional recording equipment that fortunately uses an ADC-master configuration that simply doesn't suffer from this particular connection problem. All the timing is independantly referenced to the master clock at the DAC. The pros have know this for years and think we're all stupid in domestic audio land. A few audiophile players have foudn ways round this, but they're generally expensive (Wadia, dCs, Levinson, EMM etc)

BR, Nick
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post #18 of 29 Old 04-03-2007, 11:20 AM
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I remember one of the I-Link insider mentioning early last year TI demoed a "clock locked" ILink setup that significantly reduced jitter, anyone know anything more about this?
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post #19 of 29 Old 06-15-2007, 03:45 PM
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The jitter or lack of it from the i link should be for the DAC taking place in the receiver after it is sent from the receiver.
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post #20 of 29 Old 06-16-2007, 04:00 PM
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To answer some demands in this thread.... The rumoured Pioneer BDP-LX90 player should have ILink.

Nick,

Do you take part on AVTalk as well?
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post #21 of 29 Old 06-16-2007, 08:16 PM
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At the same tine the lx90 player is rumoured to be a fictitious player, but I would love to know how the i link works with decoded DD+, True HD and DTS-HD. It should be the equivalent of HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 which makes me mad manufacturers are dropping this option from their players.
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post #22 of 29 Old 06-17-2007, 01:36 AM
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Personally I think the LX90 player is real. Chris Walker and UK reps have hinted at the existence of such a beast and whilst AVLand often puts up early inaccurate specs I dont remember them listing non existent products in the past.
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post #23 of 29 Old 08-23-2007, 07:02 AM
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Pioneer BDP-LX90
DETAILS ARE TENTATIVE
Expected UK Release January 2008
Expected price £2500 約HK$4萬

Plays High Definition Blu-Ray Discs & Standard DVD's
HDMI 1.3 (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) Digital Link for direct connection to a Plasma or HDMI AV Amp/Receiver
Dolby Digital TrueHD Decoding and output
DTS-HD Decoding and output
2 i-link Firewire Audio link connectors (Jitter free transmission of DVD-Audio/CD/SACD (DSD)
25GB Single Layer Playback
50GB Dual Layer Playback
Plays WMA/MP3/JPEG
Ethernet Networking Port
1080p Video Resolution
1080p Upscaling Output
Visually Rich HD-GUI
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) Digital Link for direct connection to a Plasma
PAL & NTSC Progressive Scan Output
Full DVD-RW compatibility, incl. 'VR' format
Double layered chassis
Gold plated terminals
DLNA Video & Audio compatible
Gloss piano black finish
1080p/24fps HD digital film direct
Straight through connectivity
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post #24 of 29 Old 05-07-2008, 06:42 AM
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Hello to all I see this very intresting post here on this forum because for long time now im trying to find a way to passthrough from my pc 24/96 7.1 audio on my amp Yamaha dsp-z9 that it does not have hdmi but ieee 1394 (i.link) So i have several question about that matter. Is there any way to connect my pc through a soundcard that haves ieee 1394 or direct from my pc's ieee 1394 connection (without soundcard) to my amp and passthrough the audio ?
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post #25 of 29 Old 05-09-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fermthe View Post

Hello to all I see this very intresting post here on this forum because for long time now im trying to find a way to passthrough from my pc 24/96 7.1 audio on my amp Yamaha dsp-z9 that it does not have hdmi but ieee 1394 (i.link) So i have several question about that matter. Is there any way to connect my pc through a soundcard that haves ieee 1394 or direct from my pc's ieee 1394 connection (without soundcard) to my amp and passthrough the audio ?

Up to 24/96 5.1 over ILink is supported through Winamp using a standard firewire card in a PC.

Details here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=606901
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post #26 of 29 Old 05-11-2008, 10:40 AM
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So when do we get the Blu-Ray recorders with 1394? They were at CEDIA 2006.

Kipp
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-26-2008, 08:27 PM
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Never-the studios dont want 1394 transports, and want hdmi to make it very hard to copy the signal. Dont hold your breath.
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post #28 of 29 Old 12-24-2008, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kipp Jones View Post

So when do we get the Blu-Ray recorders with 1394? They were at CEDIA 2006.

The Japanese have had them for more than a year:
http://www.sharp.co.jp/products/av/b...v1w/index.html
http://www.sharp.co.jp/bd/hdw/index.html
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-03-2009, 09:51 PM
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I have to laugh.

You mean JP has BR w/HDD and IEEE-1394 MPEG TS???

Here, in the US, about the only way to make money is take someone else's with law and lawyers.

...still laughing....
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