LG BH200: Mini-FAQ + Firmware Info (TrueHD 7.1, DTS-HD, 24p) + SD DVD Multiregion! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2819 Old 04-20-2008, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post


Isn't DTS Re-Encode designed for users with SPDIF not HDMI connections? Unless your Amp has HDMI but not HDMI 1.3, you may then need to use it.

What version of HDMI does your Amp support? Does your Amp support TrueHD? If so you don't want to be using DTS Re-Encode. You can see here what version of HDMI adds TrueHD and DTS-HD over Bitstream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi#Versions

I see TrueHD Bitstream wasn't added until HDMI 1.2 and DTS-HD until 1.3. If your Amp is older than HDMI 1.2 you'll want to let it on-board decode, so it can then be sent out as PCM. DTS Re-Encode will be converting the Lossless TrueHD to Lossy DTS when you should be able to pick up the Lossless TrueHD.


The Denon AVR-4806 does not support the newer formats (TrueHD/DTS-HD...). I was upset since the moves mentioned in my preious post did NOT have a DD+ soundtrack and therefore I could only listen to them in stereo, not good.

With this latest SW update, I can now downconvert the TrueHD soundtrack on these movies and send them to my 4806 as a DTS 5.1 mix sent via HDMI.

Are you saying I should try a different option in the BH200 and send it to the 4806 via the SPDIF instead of the HDMI?

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post #542 of 2819 Old 04-20-2008, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rms8 View Post

The Denon AVR-4806 does not support the newer formats (TrueHD/DTS-HD...). I was upset since the moves mentioned in my preious post did NOT have a DD+ soundtrack and therefore I could only listen to them in stereo, not good.

As I understand it prior to the March/April Firmware TrueHD was 2 Channel only, no matter what you did.

With the March/April firmware:

1. Enable DTS Re-Encode and over SPDIF TrueHD will be converted to Lossy DTS Multichannel
2. Enable DTS Re-Encode and over HDMI TrueHD will be converted to Lossy DTS Multichannel

However the LG BH200 with the March or April firmware can also on-board decode TrueHD (instead of Bitstream for the Amp to handle it) meaning you shouldn't need to use DTS Re-Encode (although it will work fine), as you can set the LG BH200 to on-board decode TrueHD, send it out via PCM then get Lossless PCM from your Amp.

I understand your Amp isn't TrueHD/DTS-HD compatible but it sounds like it has HDMI so that should work. I don't know what the option is called sorry. You need to choose the On-board decode not Bitstream option. Obviously DTS-HD (HR or MA) will only be the Core as the LG BH200 cannot On-board decode that, as you already know.

I could be wrong though, but that's how I understand it.
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post #543 of 2819 Old 04-20-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post


I understand your Amp isn't TrueHD/DTS-HD compatible but it sounds like it has HDMI so that should work. I don't know what the option is called sorry. You need to choose the On-board decode not Bitstream option. Obviously DTS-HD (HR or MA) will only be the Core as the LG BH200 cannot On-board decode that, as you already know.

I could be wrong though, but that's how I understand it.


I have tried all the options for both HDMI and SPDIF from the BH200's setup menu and only DTS re-encode gives my Denon AVR-4806 a 5.1 signal which it can work with. All other options present a 2 chnl PCM signal to the Denon, at least that's what it shows on the front display of the 4806.

One interesting note, during the Sony logo at the very beginning and the couple of trailers which follow right after, The Denon shows it is getting a DD 5.1 input. The disc then goes to the main Menu (30 Days of Night).

See the Supercharged 10second II here :
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3131345
See the ConcreteBunker Build w/8x18" IB subs here:

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post #544 of 2819 Old 04-20-2008, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rms8 View Post

I have tried all the options for both HDMI and SPDIF from the BH200's setup menu and only DTS re-encode gives my Denon AVR-4806 a 5.1 signal which it can work with. All other options present a 2 chnl PCM signal to the Denon, at least that's what it shows on the front display of the 4806.

One interesting note, during the Sony logo at the very beginning and the couple of trailers which follow right after, The Denon shows it is getting a DD 5.1 input. The disc then goes to the main Menu (30 Days of Night).

HDMI should be able to support multi-channel, even in your older 4806. It seems odd that setting your BH200 to PCM Multi-Ch does not give you 5.1 sound.

Just a thought, do you have "HDMI/DVI IN Assign" properly set to "AMP" for the HDMI input the BH200 is connected to?
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post #545 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 12:17 AM
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two days only at fotoconnection

go, go, go....
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post #546 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 12:21 AM
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post #547 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 04:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Soapbox Kid View Post

HDMI should be able to support multi-channel, even in your older 4806. It seems odd that setting your BH200 to PCM Multi-Ch does not give you 5.1 sound.

That's what I was thinking. Obviously not DTS-HD MA or HR but PCM and TrueHD should be fine, the latter can be decoded on board. So it doesn't matter the Amp doesn't specifically support it.

Looking in that Wikipedia link I posted above even HDMI 1.0 (the first version) supports: 8-channel/192 kHz/24-bit audio.

rms8: Does PCM Multichannel work?
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post #548 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilblue View Post

liltalkm:
You mentioned burning an image...don't do that. Just make it as a data disc (as though you were backing up some files, or putting family photos onto a CD). Make sure the ROM file is in the root folder of the disc.

Unlike the Toshiba firmware updates, you should be able to browse the contents of the disc on your computer. If the file is there, and in the root, you should be set. Just read through the PDF instructions and you should be fine.

That said, if you have a USB stick kicking around, that method seems the easiest.


Thanks, for the input.

I tried burning a CD (really about 6 of them) every which way to Sunday and could not get it to work. That was really frustrating as I was able to do the March update very easily.

I picked up a 8gb USB stick and it updated w/o problem.

Later

Speakers: Martin Logan Montis, EM C2, Dual Depth I Subs, JBL S38 surround (upgrading soon) | Processor: Yamaha CX-A5000 | Amp: Sunfire TGA-5400 | Sources: DirecTV HR34, HTPC, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-103, PS4, PS3, Xbox One, Wii U | Television: Panasonic 65VT50 | Remote: Logitech Harmony Ultimate
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post #549 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Soapbox Kid View Post

HDMI should be able to support multi-channel, even in your older 4806. It seems odd that setting your BH200 to PCM Multi-Ch does not give you 5.1 sound.

Just a thought, do you have "HDMI/DVI IN Assign" properly set to "AMP" for the HDMI input the BH200 is connected to?

Yes :

http://www.putfile.com/pic/8024101?pos=email




Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

That's what I was thinking. Obviously not DTS-HD MA or HR but PCM and TrueHD should be fine, the latter can be decoded on board. So it doesn't matter the Amp doesn't specifically support it.

Looking in that Wikipedia link I posted above even HDMI 1.0 (the first version) supports: 8-channel/192 kHz/24-bit audio.

rms8: Does PCM Multichannel work?

No, the 4806 only sees it as a 2 chnl source.


Tried to insert an image which I have uploaded to "putfile", but the image doesn't appear. So I pasted the web link instead....

See the Supercharged 10second II here :
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3131345
See the ConcreteBunker Build w/8x18" IB subs here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1445270/27l-x-22w-x-10h-diy-concrete-bunker-w-eight-18-ib-subs/0_70

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post #550 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rms8 View Post

I have tried all the options for both HDMI and SPDIF from the BH200's setup menu and only DTS re-encode gives my Denon AVR-4806 a 5.1 signal which it can work with. All other options present a 2 chnl PCM signal to the Denon, at least that's what it shows on the front display of the 4806.

One interesting note, during the Sony logo at the very beginning and the couple of trailers which follow right after, The Denon shows it is getting a DD 5.1 input. The disc then goes to the main Menu (30 Days of Night).

Have the same issue with my 4306 both in the "unofficial" and the new official firmware (have reported it earlyer several times in this tread and asked for it to be noted in first post (but no luck so far...) so that denon XX06 amp owners to know what they are (not) getting.) The LG gives only two LPCM channels on the denon, all other components I have tried (two toshiba HD-DVD players, one sony and one Panasonic BR player) gives multi channel LPCM just fine.

I think we are up for the next firmware oppgrade or using the LG as a rather expensive rack filler...
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post #551 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 11:31 AM
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heja & rms8, have you checked in the 4806 and 4806ci threads to see if anyone else has a similar problem with another HDM player? It sounds like there is an HDMI handshake issue between the LG and the 4806 - there is a CI update for the 4806 which upgrades its LPCM HDMI capabilities which may have resolved this issue for others. The update is listed as costing $500 so its obviously not something everyone would want to do.
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post #552 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by efjay View Post

heja & rms8, have you checked in the 4806 and 4806ci threads to see if anyone else has a similar problem with another HDM player? It sounds like there is an HDMI handshake issue between the LG and the 4806 - there is a CI update for the 4806 which upgrades its LPCM HDMI capabilities which may have resolved this issue for others. The update is listed as costing $500 so its obviously not something everyone would want to do.

Have the latest firmware for 4306 and that makes it 7.1 capable for LPCM. Have not read of problems with other players in the xx06 denon treads yet. The LG is the only player that I have tried that gives the Denon problem (of the 4 i have tried). And yes it is probably a handshake issue but since other players handshake just fine with the Denon so the LG is the prime suspect for now :-)
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post #553 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe contact the manufacturer. It's worth firing a quick e-mail off.
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post #554 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradavon View Post

Maybe contact the manufacturer. It's worth firing a quick e-mail off.

If my 4806 recognizes the TrueHD audio as a DTS 5.1 signal when the LG is set to DTS re-endcode, do I really need to go to the trouble of trying to figure out why it only sees a 2 chnl source when the LG is set to PCM Multi Chnl?

I realize that the DTS re-encoded version of the TrueHD is a very dumbed down copy of the original, but it still sounds great. Is the PCM Multi Chnl any better than the DTS re-encode?

Thanks

See the Supercharged 10second II here :
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See the ConcreteBunker Build w/8x18" IB subs here:

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post #555 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 07:29 PM
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The PCM Multi-Channel will theoretically be better than the DTS re-encode because it's sending out all the information contained in the TrueHD track and indeed on the studio master: that is, it's a lossless signal.

What you're asking is whether the pure lossless signal will sound better than the lossless signal re-encoded on the fly to DTS. I think that in many cases it would. It is entirely possible for a high-bitrate lossy encode to sound identical to the lossless master, but that would depend on the compression tools used. I don't know anything about how the BH200 achieves its DTS re-encode but I would guess that a generic real-time re-encode wouldn't be as efficient as one that was tailored to the specific master and might not sound as good.

If it already sounds great then that's great. I'd be interested to hear how it sounds compared to a DD or DD+ track over SPDIF (if that's possible)?
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post #556 of 2819 Old 04-21-2008, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rms8 View Post

If my 4806 recognizes the TrueHD audio as a DTS 5.1 signal when the LG is set to DTS re-endcode, do I really need to go to the trouble of trying to figure out why it only sees a 2 chnl source when the LG is set to PCM Multi Chnl?

That's up to you and you're quite right Lossy DTS still sounds excellent. It is after all the quality as Full-rate DTS found on some SD DVDs.

I hear from those who've compared Lossy with Lossless and all say Lossless sounds much better. That said millions of people are more than happy with Lossy 5.1. In short both answers are correct. If it were me I'd pop LG/Your Amp Manufacturer an e-mail as I'd want to hear how much better Lossless sounds.

It's hard to not get all technical hear. I just think of it like this: "On Paper Lossless Audio should always sound significantly superior, so I'd like to be able compare them for myself".

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

What you're asking is whether the pure lossless signal will sound better than the lossless signal re-encoded on the fly to DTS. I think that in many cases it would.

And the resultant DTS will only be Lossy Audio not Lossless Audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

It is entirely possible for a high-bitrate lossy encode to sound identical to the lossless master, but that would depend on the compression tools used.

Also if the original Audio Master used is in better shape then a Lossy soundtrack can look better (just like a really well remastered SD DVD will look better than a HD Disc from a poor master). This generally applies when different studios release the same film.

Instead of DTS/DD5.1/DD+ (Lossy) and DTS-HD MA/PCM/TrueHD (Lossless) on the same disc. In those case the Master will usually be the same one, and the Lossy audio will simply be downmixed in the studio.
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post #557 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 12:16 AM
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Everyone who has heard lossless vs lossy and knows which one they're listening to says that lossless is better. People who are asked to pick lossless from high-bitrate lossy in blind tests have a much harder time of it.

On paper, given a sufficiently high bitrate there should be no audible difference between lossy and lossless. This is because lossy codecs do their best to "lose" only those parts of the source that can't be heard by the human ear, either at all or given what else is going on in the source.

The question is how high a bitrate you need for the lossy track to be transparent to the master (ie no human can tell the difference). Again, on paper and given the right algorithms it has been argued reasonably persuasively that 1.5 mbps is more than enough.

If that's true, then the people who claim that lossless is better are either under some kind of placebo effect, or are responding to some difference in the tracks other than faithfulness to the master. Like just about everyone else, I think that lossless sounds better than lossy, but I'm more than willing to accept that I'm wrong and being lulled into a kind of euphoria every time my receiver lights up "DTS-HD MSTR".
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post #558 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 12:30 AM
 
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^Wonderfully logical post, Peter. Psychoacoustic audio (smart compression that discards the bits outside the range of human hearing) has come such a long way in modern codecs, that lossy is nearly indiscernible from lossless (as low as 128 kbps on 2-channel audio) on most occasions. The marketing folk have really pulled a quick one on the public and it's a bit sad how so many have lapped it up without doing research of their own. Quality forum on the subject of psychoacoustics: www.hydrogenaudio.org (the wiki is also informative and well organized at http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org ).

And here are the results of a proper double blind 3-year-old lossy test at 128 kbps done almost 3 years ago (just try imagine the incremental improvements since that time): http://www.listening-tests.info/mf-128-1/results.htm
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post #559 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 07:00 AM
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New Owner's manual posted on LG site:

New sound table is on page 36 with the following notes:


Notes:
*1 The secondary and interactive audios may not be included in the output bitstream if [SPDIF] or [HDMI]
option is set to [Primary Pass-Thru]. (Except LPCM Codec : the output always include interactive and
secondary audio.)
*2 This player automatically selects the HDMI audio according to the decoding capability of the connected
HDMI device if [HDMI] option is set to [Primary Pass-Thru].
*3 The [PCM Multi-CH]/[Primary Pass-Thru] setting of the [HDMI] option and [DTS re-encode] setting of the
[SPDIF] option cannot be set together. If you set the [HDMI] option to [PCM Multi-CH] or
[Primary Pass-Thru], the [SPDIF] option is set to [PCM Stereo] automatically. Also, if you set the [SPDIF]
option to [DTS Re-encode] and the [HDMI] option is set to [PCM Stereo] automatically.
*4 The audio source recorded at 192kHz sampling frequency will be outputted as stereo sound.
*5 On the PCM audio output, the sampling frequency of HDMI/SPDIF (DIGITAL AUDIO OUT) is limited to
96 kHz.
*6 If the [HDMI] or [SPDIF] option is set to [DTS re-encode], the audio output is limited to 48 kHz and 5.1 ch.
If the [HDMI] or [SPDIF] option is set to [DTS re-encode], the DTS Re-encode audio is outputted for BD and
HD DVD advanced discs, and the original audio is outputted for the other discs (like [Primary Pass-True]).
• The audio output for the DTS-HD/Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD source through the SPDIF (DIGITAL
AUDIO OUT) jack is limited to “PCM 2ch” if HDMI output is DTS-HD/Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD
bitstream.
• The audio output for the Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD source through the SPDIF (DIGITAL AUDIO
OUT) jack is limited to “PCM 2ch” if HDMI output is set to PCM Multi-Ch and [SPDIF] option is set to
[Primary Pass-Thru].
• The audio is always output as PCM 48kHz/16 bit during Audio CD or MP3/WMA file is playing back.
• The MPEG audio source is always output as PCM 2ch.
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post #560 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post

The PCM Multi-Channel will theoretically be better than the DTS re-encode because it's sending out all the information contained in the TrueHD track and indeed on the studio master: that is, it's a lossless signal.

What you're asking is whether the pure lossless signal will sound better than the lossless signal re-encoded on the fly to DTS. I think that in many cases it would. It is entirely possible for a high-bitrate lossy encode to sound identical to the lossless master, but that would depend on the compression tools used. I don't know anything about how the BH200 achieves its DTS re-encode but I would guess that a generic real-time re-encode wouldn't be as efficient as one that was tailored to the specific master and might not sound as good.

If it already sounds great then that's great. I'd be interested to hear how it sounds compared to a DD or DD+ track over SPDIF (if that's possible)?

The DTS reencoding in the LG is not wery god unfortunaltly. I have heard it better done in first gen Toshiba HD-DVD players. On our quite resolving front row (B&W 802D and HTM1D) it is not difficult to hear the differenece between lossless and dts reencode of the same film (blind or not blind), on our old Toshiba it is much more difficult. The DTS reencode have a slightly harsh "shine" to it that is not there in the lossless track.

Hopefully LG will fix the problem with the denons XX06 gen recivers in the next uppdate.
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post #561 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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@ Peterjcat: You could well be right and I've thought much the same for years.

I tend to think, if I think it sounds better to me then it sounds better and whether it is or not isn't all that important.

I do know I can hear a difference between 448Kbps DD5.1 to 1.5Mbps DTS on DVDs so am willing to accept the same can happen again with 1.5Mbps DTS to Lossless PCM/TrueHD/DTS-HD MA.
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post #562 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:24 PM
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Except that over a certain point, the increased bitrate might not produce as noticeable an improvement.

JPEGs might prove a useful analogy here (though I'm no audio expert, so this doesn't necessarily hold). Anyway, most can tell the different between saving a .jpeg with a quality of 40 vs. a quality of 80. (40 is more compressed, so more artifacts, etc.). Above 80 or 85 though, and the improvements aren't easy to see. File size increases dramatically though.

So, the question is whether DTS at 1.5Mbps is at a similar sweet spot (bitrates below it are noticeable, but bitrates above it might not be, even if the bitrate is substantially increased).

Without knowing which is playing, can the average person really pick out the difference between DTS-HD MA, DTS-HD HR, DTS-HD "core only", or even DTS over SPDIF @ 1.5 Mbps? Peterjcat raised an interesting point here.
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post #563 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilblue View Post

Without knowing which is playing, can the average person really pick out the difference between DTS-HD MA, DTS-HD HR, DTS-HD "core only", or even DTS over SPDIF @ 1.5 Mbps?

The average person no, but we're not average people, we're the elite

A better test would be a a blind test with an audiophile.
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post #564 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:43 PM
 
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Someone from Dolby labs has even said that the sweet spot is 640kbps.

Anyway, the "elite" is questionable when people are throwing out subjective claims of "I know this format sounds superior to that format, my totally unscientific test in my home theater proved it!%@"

With lossless becoming commonplace soon enough, these questions won't be important to answer any longer.
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post #565 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Someone from Dolby labs has even said that the sweet spot is 640kbps.

Really? Any links?

I find that hard to believe when 1.5Mbps to 768Kbps (so similar to 640Kbps) to me sounds different.

Many say they can hear a difference between 128Kbps and 192Kbps MP3s. I cannot, not that I've really checked. They're just MP3s.

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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Anyway, the "elite" is questionable when people are throwing out subjective claims of "I know this format sounds superior to that format, my totally unscientific test in my home theater proved it!%@"

True

That was just a quip about being Elite
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post #566 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:51 PM
 
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It was on here somewhere (it was apparently Roger Dressler), I'll have to look for it (sorry, ill-prepared ).
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post #567 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:55 PM
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@ Peterjcat: You could well be right and I've thought much the same for years.

I tend to think, if I think it sounds better to me then it sounds better and whether it is or not isn't all that important.

I do know I can hear a difference between 448Kbps DD5.1 to 1.5Mbps DTS on DVDs so am willing to accept the same can happen again with 1.5Mbps DTS to Lossless PCM/TrueHD/DTS-HD MA.

Remember though that at 448, you are talking about ~15:1 compression ration... at 1.5, ~4.6:1 with film soundtracks (the masters are at 6.9mbps)
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post #568 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that all the masters are stored at? I thought it was something like 18Mbps/24Mbps.
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post #569 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 04:06 PM
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Is that all the masters are stored at? I thought it was something like 18Mbps/24Mbps.

6 channels of PCM at 24bit/48kHz is 6.9mbps...

Also, because the .1 is not a full bandwidth channel, the compression rations start to look better..
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post #570 of 2819 Old 04-22-2008, 07:52 PM
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Just Bought one on ebay for total 398 shiped NIB, lets hope its works great, I cant wait to compare it to my BH100. I only wish it had 5.1 analog outs like the BH100.

Athanasios
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