The BH 200 DD+ bitstreaming issue... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Third World View Post

I get the "helicopter" "lawnmower" sounds. I tried three different HD DVD's
bourne identity DD+, 300- Dolby TrueHD and Batman Begins- Dolby TrueHD.

If I set it to PMC Multi-Ch no problems at all....good sound. I have a 5.1 setup

Last night after I posted I played around a little more, and found out that for some HD DVD's the default audio setting is DD+ and you have to go into the features and manually select Dolby TrueHD, once I did that my reciever lit up with TrueHD.
Just re-reading some posts I am concluding that HD DVD's that only have DD+
are the ones that cannot be bitstreamed "by some Recievers"

My question is........assuming you have a HD DVD with both DD+ and Dolby TrueHD. When you first load the disk is there any way to default the disk to select Dolby TrueHD instead of DD+ this way you avoid the "lawnmower" noise right from the start

The other option .......
is to first select PMC multichannel in the Player's setup, load the disk (this avoids the "lawnmower" noise, and when the movie starts switch the audio selection to Dolby TrueHD by using the audio button on the remote,then going back to the setup and switching PMC multi to Pass thru.

I guess the question is....... when the movie is playing or is in pause mode is it possible to get to the setup menu make the switch from PMC multi to direct pass thru and restart the movie ?????? without having to restart the disk ?

I know....... this may seem like a lot of work to get bitstream but it would just make me feel better to know there is a workaround.......and that I am getting full use from my expensive A/V reciever

Also I will be buying a lot of HD DVD's in the comming weeks

Any opinions.....ideas or thoughts are very welcome
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post #32 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Third World View Post

My question is........assuming you have a HD DVD with both DD+ and Dolby TrueHD. When you first load the disk is there any way to default the disk to select Dolby TrueHD instead of DD+ this way you avoid the "lawnmower" noise right from the start

Not if you want to bitstream, there's no way to avoid it.

I'm not sure how it is with Pioneer, but i've heard rumor that for Onkyo's there's a firmware update for the receiver to recognize the DD+ signal, instead of mistaking it for stereo PCM which causes the"helicopter" sound.
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post #33 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by davcole View Post

Not if you want to bitstream, there's no way to avoid it.

I'm not sure how it is with Pioneer, but i've heard rumor that for Onkyo's there's a firmware update for the receiver to recognize the DD+ signal, instead of mistaking it for stereo PCM which causes the"helicopter" sound.

Interesting......I wonder what it would take for Pioneer to put out a firmware update. Does it have to be a lot of people complaining or is there a mechanism by which companies decide what issues to address??? Though HD DVD is dead DD+ is not going away, so they may be interested in addressing this. I could e-mail and call Pioneer CS....but will it help??
People with experience in these matters please chime in.
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post #34 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Third World View Post

Interesting......I wonder what it would take for Pioneer to put out a firmware update. Does it have to be a lot of people complaining or is there a mechanism by which companies decide what issues to address??? Though HD DVD is dead DD+ is not going away, so they may be interested in addressing this. I could e-mail and call Pioneer CS....but will it help??
People with experience in these matters please chime in……….

Why should Pioneer fix the problem that is not theirs. I have Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH receiver connected to my Samsung BD-UP5000 and never have any problem with my 50+ HD DVDs using bitstream and DD+. It's clearly a problem particular to LG player, not Pioneer.
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post #35 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think i've ever read of anyone with a Denon having this problem?
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post #36 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 11:06 AM
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Maybe Denon is more forgiving but it does not mean LG BH200 doesn't have problem. Unless you can find another BD or HD bitstream player has the same issue with non-Denon AVRs, we can safely assume it is the problem with LG. The only players that plays HD DVD and also bitstreams audio are LG BH200, Sammy 5000, Toshiba XA2 and A35. So far, BH200 is the only one has problem bitstream DD+ as far as I know.
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post #37 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

I have Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH receiver connected to my Samsung BD-UP5000 and never have any problem with my 50+ HD DVDs using bitstream and DD+. It's clearly a problem particular to LG player, not Pioneer.

Foxbat how would you rate the BD-UP5000......the reason I ask is because we share the same reciever and all the DVD's I own are HD DVD's, So it's kinda important that I am able to bitstream DD+ etc...
I'm not really interested in the hacks......all I care about is PQ for HD DVD's SD's and the ocassional BD that I may rent from netflix

I still have a small window to return the BH200 to BB.....and get the sammy
So I just wanted your thoughts......

Also are their any issues BD-UP5000 has with the 92 ??
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post #38 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 05:16 PM
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No issue what so ever as far as bitstream audio concerns (except for one HD DVD disc: Pans Labryth DTS-HD MA which believed to be either authoring issue or compatibility on 5k that cause pops on all AVRs). If PQ is your primary goal and region hacks are not, 5K is the best choice. Its Reon video processor is above Qdeo used in LG for SD DVD playback. However, two things you need to consider before you return your BH 200:

1. Sammy's QA is non-existent. Certain batch of 5k is broken out of box (can't play fox BDs). You have to send them back to Sammy for repair.
2. Make sure your local store still has 5k in stock. It's long gone in most BBs and CCs.
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post #39 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 05:51 PM
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I don't have a 5K to compare SD video quality, but I have seen other folks say that the difference isn't that great.
The 200 QDEO produces a VG picture, it's no chump.
Does the Reon in the 5K allow adjustments to the picture?

It passes ALL the tests thrown at it, I believe that I've read that it does so better than the Reon as well- maybe I'm wrong(cuz I really don't care about the 5K- I don't own one), and if I misread, and I'm wrong that's fine, because it won't be the first time, nor the last.

Neither player is perfect, but considering what they do, I think these players are the best bargain out there at the $ they can be had for.

"Supposedly" the 200 can be made 2.0 compliant, I personally don't care about that either, and I'll believe that when it actually happens, instead of an email from a CSR saying that they are working on firmware to enable it.

BTW- I THOUGHT I read(in this forum somewhere) that Pioneer AVRS have the most "Helicopter" noise issues with the 200, again maybe I am wrong.

My Denon 988 still hasn't had this issue for some reason, and I'm not sorry about that....

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post #40 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 06:11 PM
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This isn't a thread to discuss 5K vs BH200 SD PQ. The topic has been beaten to death. This is about the 'Helicopter' noise with DD+ bitstream on non-Denon AVRs. It's an issue unique to LG, not Sammy. Some AVR Brand may be more suspectible than others but make no mistake, it's not the AVR to blame. If LG outputs bitstream properly, like 5k does, all AVRs will play them back w/o issues. 5K does not suffer from such problem although it has its own set of other problems.
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post #41 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

This isn't a thread to discuss 5K vs BH200 SD PQ. The topic has been beaten to death. This is about the 'Helicopter' noise with DD+ bitstream on non-Denon AVRs. It's an issue unique to LG, not Sammy. Some AVR Brand may be more suspectible than others but make no mistake, it's not the AVR to blame. If LG outputs bitstream properly, like 5k does, all AVRs will play them back w/o issues. 5K does not suffer from such problem although it has its own set of other problems.

YOU brought up the PQ of the 5K vs 200, I just added the info that is relevant to that piece of info.

I NEVER said it wasn't some weird issue with the 200, only that I have NOT heard it, and haven't seen anyone else that has a Denon say they have either.

I don't know what it is, I wish that they would at least look into it, because it does seem to be the 200.
I tell you one thing, I would be hammering them constantly if I were having that problem.

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post #42 of 139 Old 08-21-2008, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post

YOU brought up the PQ of the 5K vs 200, I just added the info that is relevant to that piece of info.

I was merely answering the questions Third World asked because he can't watch any HD DVDs because of this issue on his BH200 and Pioneer Elite 92 AVR. Regardless how good the PQ BH200 offers, he can't enjoy it w/o the sound. Besides, there are quite a few posts from owners who owned both and preferred 5K PQ slightly.
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post #43 of 139 Old 08-22-2008, 08:18 AM
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OK

Let's move on.

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post #44 of 139 Old 08-22-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

1. Sammy's QA is non-existent. Certain batch of 5k is broken out of box (can't play fox BDs). You have to send them back to Sammy for repair.
2. Make sure your local store still has 5k in stock. It's long gone in most BBs and CCs.

Thank you for the advise......I went to BB last night to see if I could find any sammy's..........they were all gone, I could have sworn I saw a few just days ago !!!!!! Anyway while I was there I noticed the BH200 that I had bought a few days ago for $499.00 was marked down to $399.00, so I got a price match and 10% of the difference refunded to my card

And you also make a good point about the support, I think LG may be a little more comitted to it than sammy.....from what I see.
So I'm going to hang on to my BH200 and try the Customer Service rout to try to find a solution to this "lawnmower" issue hopefully there are more of us out there who want to take up this issue with LG......again thank you for taking the time to answer my questions
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post #45 of 139 Old 08-24-2008, 03:52 PM
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I get the "motorboating" or "helicopter" noise with my BH200 connected to my Marantz AV8003 Processor.

I did not have this problem with my Integra DTC-9.8 Processor.

Is there a way to roll back the driver to 0701? Seems that maybe that driver doesn't have the same problem.

This motorboating thing is likely to really grow exponentially now that this player is only $339 at BestBuy.

LG, help us out here! I don't want to take this puppy back, but I need it bitstream all codecs properly!
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post #46 of 139 Old 08-25-2008, 07:32 AM
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I have the 620 firmware with a flashed Onkyo 805 for the DTS fix and on rare occasion (before I changed to 192 on the sounds bitrate) I noticed the helicoper issue. I just popped the disk out and back in and then it would work, odd. I then changed to 192 and tried it and it seems to be ok. I think another poster said it was a handshake issue and this would make sense. My understanding is that HDMI is not really great at error correction, check google for this.
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post #47 of 139 Old 08-25-2008, 09:02 AM
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Davcole,

Did you update your DSPs to fix the "bitstream bomb" problem?



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Originally Posted by davcole View Post

I don't think i've ever read of anyone with a Denon having this problem?

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post #48 of 139 Old 08-25-2008, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stpat View Post

Davcole,

Did you update your DSPs to fix the "bitstream bomb" problem?

I tried it once and it didn't work so i'm hesitant to again. I'm thinking of getting the firmware update by sending the receiver in.

Tell me, did you have the problems before and it was solved by the DSP update?
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post #49 of 139 Old 08-25-2008, 07:51 PM
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No, I never had any problems with it, I just upgraded it so that I would never encounter "the bomb", which has been known to destroy speakers.

I just mentioned it to try to determine the differences between our setups (since we both have the 705).

I upgraded my 705 the minute I brought it home from the store, so I never had the chance to experience the helicopter noise.

That being said, that could be the key difference here... the DSPs deal with audio decoding, and you're reporting an audio decoding problem.


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Originally Posted by davcole View Post

I tried it once and it didn't work so i'm hesitant to again. I'm thinking of getting the firmware update by sending the receiver in.

Tell me, did you have the problems before and it was solved by the DSP update?

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post #50 of 139 Old 08-25-2008, 08:31 PM
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I was all excited having just bought a BH200 for ~$315 plus tax from Best Buy...then I read this thread.

Can someone help me out? I'm not totally sure that "bitstreaming" is what I do. I have an Onkyo 604, which can't decode DTS-HD, TrueHD, so I always just decode them through my XA2 or my PS3. I'm not sure if it's bitstreaming but I just see "Multich" or something like that on my Onkyo screen. If I were to replace those two with the BH200, will I be susceptible to the problems mentioned in this thread? I really don't want to rearrange everything and especially reconfigure the Harmony remote if it's not going to be worth it in the end. I can always return the BH200.

Also, I would be selling the XA2 if this works out, and I don't want to do that hastily, since it is a fine player. I figure I have an A35 to use instead, and I can get more for the XA2.

Thanks for any help/advice you can give!

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post #51 of 139 Old 08-26-2008, 05:20 AM
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Sounds like you are setup to output PCM(Decoded by the player) with those players, hence the MultiCh. in

Set the 200 to PCM and you'll be fine, it will Decode the codecs in the player, and output as MultiCH., but you will NOT get DTS-HR/ or DTS-MA, as the 200 does NOT decode those 2 internally, I believe you will get the DTS Core.

It will Bitstream(Listed as Passthrough in the 200 menu) DD,DD+,DTS,TrueHD when set to Pass Through.

Maybe I'm off on this, but I think that's the deal here.

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post #52 of 139 Old 08-26-2008, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post

Sounds like you are setup to output PCM(Decoded by the player) with those players, hence the MultiCh. in

Set the 200 to PCM and you'll be fine, it will Decode the codecs in the player, and output as MultiCH., but you will NOT get DTS-HR/ or DTS-MA, as the 200 does NOT decode those 2 internally, I believe you will get the DTS Core.

It will Bitstream(Listed as Passthrough in the 200 menu) DD,DD+,DTS,TrueHD when set to Pass Through.

Maybe I'm off on this, but I think that's the deal here.

Thanks!

So you're saying I won't get DTS-HD with this player, but TrueHD and DD+ should work fine with the PCM? I really want to have DTS-HD as an option, and now that the PS3 can decode it, I'm not sure about what to do.

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post #53 of 139 Old 08-26-2008, 02:45 PM
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DTS core (from DTS MA) is just as good.
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post #54 of 139 Old 08-26-2008, 02:49 PM
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It does not internally decode DTS-HD or DTS-MA, it can only bistream them, and considering that your 604 doesn't decode DTS- HD or Master audio, you will not get them with this player and that AVR.

I don't know if the 200 will ever be capable of Internally decoding those codecs, I haven't heard one way or the other.
If DTS HD/MA is important to you, the ps3 can now, the Pioneer 51/05 have been SAID to be able (with a supposed Firmware update coming- who knows when), the Panny BD50 can, and the upcoming Sony 550 will be able to.

I believe the outrageously priced Denon 3800 can as well.....it should wash and wax my car once a week, and change my oil for a year for the cost of that thing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think that's right.

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post #55 of 139 Old 08-26-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post

It does not internally decode DTS-HD or DTS-MA, it can only bistream them, and considering that your 604 doesn't decode DTS- HD or Master audio, you will not get them with this player and that AVR.

I don't know if the 200 will ever be capable of Internally decoding those codecs, I haven't heard one way or the other.
If DTS HD/MA is important to you, the ps3 can now, the Pioneer 51/05 have been SAID to be able (with a supposed Firmware update coming- who knows when), the Panny BD50 can, and the upcoming Sony 550 will be able to.

I believe the outrageously priced Denon 3800 can as well.....it should wash and wax my car once a week, and change my oil for a year for the cost of that thing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think that's right.

Should I be worried about DTS HD/MA? Gizmo above said "core" would be fine. I just don't want to downgrade my output just to simplify my setup and remove a game console. This decision is not easy.

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post #56 of 139 Old 08-27-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stpat View Post

No, I never had any problems with it, I just upgraded it so that I would never encounter "the bomb", which has been known to destroy speakers.

I just mentioned it to try to determine the differences between our setups (since we both have the 705).

I upgraded my 705 the minute I brought it home from the store, so I never had the chance to experience the helicopter noise.

That being said, that could be the key difference here... the DSPs deal with audio decoding, and you're reporting an audio decoding problem.

When you say you updated your 705, you mean your Onkyo receiver? I have a 705 and was not aware we could update it ourselves. Link?
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post #57 of 139 Old 08-27-2008, 08:08 PM
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Yep, I meant my Onkyo 705.

We can't update the main system firmware, but we can update the DSPs (and it's pretty simple).

Check out the following link (the 705 FAQ) and look for the answer to question 14A:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935808

Hope it helps.

If you have any questions, send me a PM.


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When you say you updated your 705, you mean your Onkyo receiver? I have a 705 and was not aware we could update it ourselves. Link?

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post #58 of 139 Old 08-28-2008, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stpat View Post

Yep, I meant my Onkyo 705.

We can't update the main system firmware, but we can update the DSPs (and it's pretty simple).

Check out the following link (the 705 FAQ) and look for the answer to question 14A:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935808

Hope it helps.

If you have any questions, send me a PM.

Thanks. Saw that after I posted. D'oh!

Does anyone know if the disc player connected HAS to be a CD player? I don't even HAVE a CD player anymore!
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post #59 of 139 Old 08-28-2008, 07:49 PM
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I used a DVD player (actually, it was a old DVD/VHS combo player).

The DSP update is actually a wav file, so make sure you burn it as an audio disc, and not a data disc.

Then you have to connect the player (DVD or whatever) to Optical Input #1 (has to be #1) via an optical/toslink cable.

It was very simple to do.

I think the reason they say to use a CD player is that many recent DVD/HD players have settings to apply some sort of conversion to audio (for example, the BH200 allows you to re-encode all audio to DTS.)

Re-encodes of the audio will alter the wav file data, and it won't work.

I've read of people that successfully did it with their XBOX 360.



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Thanks. Saw that after I posted. D'oh!

Does anyone know if the disc player connected HAS to be a CD player? I don't even HAVE a CD player anymore!

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post #60 of 139 Old 08-29-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stpat View Post

I used a DVD player (actually, it was a old DVD/VHS combo player).

The DSP update is actually a wav file, so make sure you burn it as an audio disc, and not a data disc.

Then you have to connect the player (DVD or whatever) to Optical Input #1 (has to be #1) via an optical/toslink cable.

It was very simple to do.

I think the reason they say to use a CD player is that many recent DVD/HD players have settings to apply some sort of conversion to audio (for example, the BH200 allows you to re-encode all audio to DTS.)

Re-encodes of the audio will alter the wav file data, and it won't work.

I've read of people that successfully did it with their XBOX 360.

Hmmm . . . my HTPC is connected via TOSLINK . . . dare I risk the update by directly playing the WAV file?
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