The BH 200 DD+ bitstreaming issue... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 139 Old 09-08-2008, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billbillw View Post

As I mentioned, I'm not having this problem at all when combined with my Onkyo SR805. I suspect it is a receiver firmware issue because with LG's June firmware and the 0702 driver, my system is working perfect bitstreaming DD+, TrueHD, DTSHD Master, etc.

My Onkyo is updated to the latest across the board.

I recommend everyone check to see if their receivers are current. The DSP update (to eliminate the DTS HD Master 'bomb') for the Onkyo receivers may also be the reason why I don't have this problem with DD+.

Perhaps, but your Onk update won't fix my Marantz pre or Pioneer folks' receivers.

And since my pre released about two months ago, I'd say it's pretty current.
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post #92 of 139 Old 09-08-2008, 05:32 PM
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i tried Pioneer 9120 and 9130 AVR, both not working when BH200 bitstreaming DD+, tried the same disc on Sony S350, DD+ bitstreaming worked fine with Pioneer AVR still think LG caused this issue and the phantom rear surround channel in LPCM 7.1 is annoying too, hopefully LG will fix both in next FW
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post #93 of 139 Old 09-08-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlee1225 View Post

i tried Pioneer 9120 and 9130 AVR, both not working when BH200 bitstreaming DD+, tried the same disc on Sony S350, DD+ bitstreaming worked fine with Pioneer AVR still think LG caused this issue and the phantom rear surround channel in LPCM 7.1 is annoying too, hopefully LG will fix both in next FW

How could you try the same disk on the Sony? DD+ is an HD DVD soundtrack????

Anyway, concerning the Onkyo Bill, mine is a VERY early release, bought in 6/06. My FW loader version is 1.00. 1.01 is REQUIRED to be able to use a rig at home (if I even had one). I contacted Onkyo, and got an extremely uncaring phone call yesterday morning from them, no human sympathy at all for my dilemna, even though I was extremely patient and considerate when I talked to that man. I HAVE to send it over 3 states away, to their Colorado sevice center, and was told a MINIMUM of 15 days wait to have it fixed and returned. And if you have read the horor stories over on the 805 FW posts, you will see many have had to reship theirs back numerous times to finally get it done RIGHT. I have done the DSP update though, and I think that may have fixed the DTS bomb problem, but even after that, my 805 still would occasionally have the screwed up signal from the BH200 or A35 with DD+, just not as bad as the new Pioneer is doing now. But I'll tell you what - I will NOT give up this new Pioneer VSX-03TXH!!!! It is awesome. The sound is incredible, and I CAN tell the difference. It does everything I want it to, and more. And you know what???? The nearest Pioneer service center is only 15 or so miles away from me!

So now what to do with the LG? I really do like it, and these are now extremely rare to find! If I return it, might never find another one. But if I keep it past the 30 days and LG don't fix this issue, then I am sort of screwed (because I am NOT going to return the Pio and use the Onkyo ever again). At least for now, I can go back to using the PS3 (and will miss bitsreaming) for BD, the A35 for HD, and might even dust off my old Pio Elite 59AVi for DVD (many say this is still worth keeping, cost me $1500+ when new LOL).

Oh, and as far as the VSX-03TXH firmware, this is a brand new unit, just came out. So doubt it may need, or even have, a new FW for it.
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post #94 of 139 Old 09-08-2008, 07:14 PM
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Oh, another thought - this new VSX-03TXH is the only Pioneer model so far, that has some new things called "HDMI Jitter Reduction". Not sure exactly what it does, and don't see it in any of the menus for the AVR. But I wonder, if maybe it could be the cause of this?
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post #95 of 139 Old 09-09-2008, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX_Rocky View Post

How could you try the same disk on the Sony? DD+ is an HD DVD soundtrack????

I luckily own the Dolby Demo Blu-ray disc, having all kinds of 5.1, 7.1 DD+ and THD.
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post #96 of 139 Old 09-09-2008, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlee1225 View Post

i tried Pioneer 9120 and 9130 AVR, both not working when BH200 bitstreaming DD+, tried the same disc on Sony S350, DD+ bitstreaming worked fine with Pioneer AVR still think LG caused this issue and the phantom rear surround channel in LPCM 7.1 is annoying too, hopefully LG will fix both in next FW

Amen to that, I hate when those phantom rear channels come in and you know there is no sound coming out of them!
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post #97 of 139 Old 09-09-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fst96se View Post

Perhaps, but your Onk update won't fix my Marantz pre or Pioneer folks' receivers.

And since my pre released about two months ago, I'd say it's pretty current.

I'm in the same boat as you, love the 8003, but the DD+ issue is killing me. Wonder if Marantz will release some sort of firmware to update it. Tough to know whether the issue lies with Marantz or LG.
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post #98 of 139 Old 09-09-2008, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmj811998 View Post

I'm in the same boat as you, love the 8003, but the DD+ issue is killing me. Wonder if Marantz will release some sort of firmware to update it. Tough to know whether the issue lies with Marantz or LG.

Sure looks like it is an LG issue, since it bitstreams DD+ just fine with older (pre April) firmware, but won't do it with April-Current firmware.

Something they did broke DD+ bitstreaming. They gave TrueHD decoding and DTS-MA bitstreaming, but broke DD+ for certain receivers/pre-pros.

Annoying for sure, but if LG knows about it, it seems like it should be an easy fix.
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post #99 of 139 Old 09-09-2008, 10:46 PM
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I've never been all that happy with my Marantz SR7002 so I made the move to a Denon AVR-2809CI and the DD+ bitstreaming issue does not exist. I agree it's a BH200 problem (primarily) but I suspect something in the handshake with the AVR seems to be causing the problem because it only affects certain receivers.

My SR7002 is supposed to be sent away to upgrade the firmware ... interested to see whether that resolves the issue with that AVR.
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post #100 of 139 Old 09-10-2008, 12:22 AM
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Well, the BAD NEWS from Pioneer customer service concerning the BH200 and the static

Quote:


There is no firmware updates available for the Receiver. When firmware updates become available they can only be installed by a service technician. Since HD DVD is a dead format I don't believe that we would look for a way to correct problems with this formats.

Thank You,
David
Customer Service Representative

So I just sent this in to LG in the hopes they might be able to fix this, or offer a solution.
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post #101 of 139 Old 09-10-2008, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX_Rocky View Post

Well, the BAD NEWS from Pioneer customer service concerning the BH200 and the static



So I just sent this in to LG in the hopes they might be able to fix this, or offer a solution.

If Pioneer gave me that much attitude IN WRITING, I would shove that receiver back down their throats (or the other end depending on how I felt). Hopefully, the issue gets resolved.
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post #102 of 139 Old 09-10-2008, 08:05 AM
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Interesting and dissappointing response from Pioneer. They may not want to fix problems with HD DVD, but they should fix problems with DD+...unless they are saying that bitstreaming DD+ off a Blu-ray title works flawlessly .

Ye who now will bless the poor shall yourselves find blessing.
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post #103 of 139 Old 09-10-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Interesting and dissappointing response from Pioneer. They may not want to fix problems with HD DVD, but they should fix problems with DD+...unless they are saying that bitstreaming DD+ off a Blu-ray title works flawlessly .

I am not mad at Pioneer, I got more of a reply back from them than I have from Onkyo. And the nearest Pio center is only about 15 minutes away from me - Onkyo is around 3+ states away.

Also, I don't think BD discs use DD+ at all. Every BD movie I have is either DD THD, DTS HD, DTS HDMA, or PCM. It is only the HD DVD movies that 95% use DD+ for audio. And so far not one single BD movie has given me a problem with the Pioneer receiver. not a one - no matter with the BH200 or the PS3. And the DD+ bitstreams just fine from the Toshiba A35 to the VSC-03TXH. So the problem must be with how the BH200 processes/delivers the HD DVD audio through its HDMI port.

And the problem is not with the Pio receiver, though it appears it is more sensitive than the Onkyo 805 is, in how the BH200 delivers HD DVD audio via HDMI compared with the Toshiba A35.

Here is what I had posted on the other section:

Quote:


In a nutshell:

Receiver: Onkyo 805
My Toshibas A35 HD DVD (only) would occasionaly give a possible HDMI handshake issue during pause/play/chapter change, whenever the audio would stop being sent over the HDMI and then restart when the video would begin playing again, the 805 would gets its signals crossed and the 805's display would flash a number of times, and then think it was now receiving a stereo signal and give the loud modulating static noise over my speakers.

Same thing has happened only a few times with the 805 during the short time I have had the BH200.

With BD, not a single problem with the BH200, PS3, S350, 2550, etc

Receiver: Pioneer VSX-03TXH
Toshiba A35 plays perfectly. So far, but only limited testing as I just put it back on the rack now, this has not yet happened.

With the BH200, through bitstream (never tried the PCM, why should I anyway, I did not get it to use PCM, sorry), EVERY HD DVD movie has the loud static noise, right from the start, right from the first audio/video screen to show up, I get the static - even before I get to the menu screen, and thus way before the movie even begins to play. I can even play a BD movie first, which plays and sounds just perfect, and then insert an HD DVD movie, and the static will begin.

As during this time there is no audio signal going out through the HDMI port, this must be some sort of HD DVD audio handshaking problem. As this does happen occasionally with the 805, it does not mean it is the new Pio receiver, it just means the Pio is more sensitive to the probem than the Onkyo. But as the A35 so far plays just fine, then it must be more exagerated by the way the BH200 handles the HD DVD audio processing.

I got off the phone with LG support just awhile ago. The guy I talked to didn't know a BD or HD DVD from a VHS tape!!!!! I tried to explain to him what was going on, and it was like talking to a dead log. He would not let me talk to an engineer, and only suggested that I take it to an LG autorized repair center, which luckily one is nearby. But it is just some Joe Schmoe's TV/VCR repair shop!! And as he said I had the latest FW and driver, and there is no new (or beta) FW that *he* could look up, it looks like I will sadly have to return this unit back to BB. I really want to keep it, as it would do the work of THREE components (BD, HD, and DVD), and had the possibility to do all three very good, but I cannot afford to have it just laying around unused if it don't work with the new Pio receiver. And I do not want to go back to the Onkyo 805, I want to be rid of them.

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post #104 of 139 Old 09-18-2008, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX_Rocky View Post

Well, the BAD NEWS from Pioneer customer service concerning the BH200 and the static



So I just sent this in to LG in the hopes they might be able to fix this, or offer a solution.

well, I suspect it's more a LG issue than Pioneer, read somewhere on AVS that older f/w has no DD+ bitstreaming issue before LG enable bitsreaming on lossless formats, somehow LG screwed up lossy ones

as I mentioned before, I had a Dolby demo BD disc, DD+ 5.1/7.1 bitstreaming is flawless from Sony 350, but not from BH200

I do hope LG will fix this and other remaining issues !
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post #105 of 139 Old 09-18-2008, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlee1225 View Post

well, I suspect it's more a LG issue than Pioneer, read somewhere on AVS that older f/w has no DD+ bitstreaming issue before LG enable bitsreaming on lossless formats, somehow LG screwed up lossy ones

as I mentioned before, I had a Dolby demo BD disc, DD+ 5.1/7.1 bitstreaming is flawless from Sony 350, but not from BH200

I do hope LG will fix this and other remaining issues !

I think I have to tend to agree with you, in light of what you just mentioned!

If they had played with the bitstream, then they could most likely have messed up the "flags" sent during HDMI handshaking with the receiver. Because basicly (or correct me if I am wrong????), the receiver can only act upon what type of signal/flag the PLAYER sends to it, which is sent during the handshake. So LG must have screwed up that flag being sent when they (again, most likely) hurried to get the bitstream fix sent out. But then, as the 805 had only a few of these problems with the BH200 but only during HD DVD movies being played, the Pioneer appears to be much more sensitive to the problem as the VSX-03TXH had problems with ANY HD DVD being played, and the SC-05 has problems (seeing any signal being sent as either stereo or 96khz stereo) with both BD and HD DVD (but not regular DVD), perhaps because it is a BETTER AVR than the Onkyo and has stricter tolerances as mentioned below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by efjay View Post

Maybe not solely the LG's fault as I have a Denon and have had none of the issues mentioned with bitstreaming any HD codecs (the DTS bomb is an example of a problem that would exhibit itself with certain hardware combinations). However it could just be that some AVR's are more tolerant of the LG than others.

But the confusing matter is this - using my Toshiba A35 HD DVD player, with the 805 I would occasionally get the stereo/static issue during times when the audio signal was stopped during pause/play or chapter changes. Using the VSX-03TXH, I think I got a few stereo/static issues with the A35 during those same times. But now, with the more expensive SC-05, the A35 so far has not had one signal problem yet!

IF ONLY, LG were to fix this issue, I would run back to BB and re-purchase that BH200 in a FLASH! As I said repeatedly, I truly love that player. It has excellent PQ, and the QDEO is fantastic with regular DVD's. And having one unit take the place of THREE on my Bello stand, I won't be seeing the glass shelf bowing in the middle anymore. It would go from looking like this:

PS3...........................
Tosh A35................... Time Warner HD DVR
*******<<>>********
Pioneer 59AVi...............SC-05
Samsung DVD-VR357.....SC-05

To this (nice & clean!!!):

BH200.......................Time Warner HD DVR
*********************************
................................SC05
Samsung DVD-VR357....SC05

Might even put the old Marantz LD player back in again on the bottom shelf which is fully supported LOL. Not to mention the old 59AVi is still worth some $$$ to the right person, as it plays both DVD-A and SACD, as well as has i-Link, and does an excellent job of upscaling to 1080i.

Now, what you had said about the old FW, does anyone have a list of what versions does what fixes? And if I were to be able to nab my BH200 back again from BB, could someone E-Mail me those older FW updates to try out?

Thanks!
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post #106 of 139 Old 09-19-2008, 12:55 AM
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Ooops, forgot to mention one thing - both Pioneer VSX-03TXH and SC-05 has something Pioneer calls "HDMI Jitter Reduction". Wonder if that could be effecting it??? Because I know Onkyo don't have that, not sure if Denon does either.
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post #107 of 139 Old 09-19-2008, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fst96se View Post

Sure looks like it is an LG issue, since it bitstreams DD+ just fine with older (pre April) firmware, but won't do it with April-Current firmware.

Something they did broke DD+ bitstreaming. They gave TrueHD decoding and DTS-MA bitstreaming, but broke DD+ for certain receivers/pre-pros.

Annoying for sure, but if LG knows about it, it seems like it should be an easy fix.

Broke down and bought a refurbished Sammy BD-UP5000 off Amazon and tested it on the 8003. No problems with DD+ bitstreaming, it was awesome to see the DD+ on the display. Watched the Mummy movies in DD+ and was very satisfied with the picture and sound. I'll keep the LG as a backup and hopefully they'll release an update for the DD+ issue.
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post #108 of 139 Old 09-22-2008, 03:26 PM
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Hi guys,

I am seeing an issue with this player that has been reported in the US AVSforums and wonder if anyone else gets the same problems. I am connecting to a Pioneer LX51 receiver.

When I select Primary pass through for bitstream to the amp with HDDVD I hear a loud buzzing sound in my speakers as the disk loads. On my Pio the display reads 192 Stereo. However when the film starts it finally picks up the DTS HD Master Audio track and I see this on my amp. Whenever you stop the disk and go back into the menus the buzzing starts again. If I select PCM Multichannel all is well.

As an experiment, I tried the same thing with a Blue ray disk....and do NOT get the same issue.......DTD HD Master audio is displayed correctly, but I do not get the speaker static as the disk loads or in the menus.

This points to the issue being with LG and the initial handshake with the pioneer on HDDVD. I am hoping that LG will fix this with a firmware update as this is the only issue I get with what is otherwise a superb player
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post #109 of 139 Old 09-22-2008, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmturpie View Post

Hi guys,

I am seeing an issue with this player that has been reported in the US AVSforums and wonder if anyone else gets the same problems. I am connecting to a Pioneer LX51 receiver.

When I select Primary pass through for bitstream to the amp with HDDVD I hear a loud buzzing sound in my speakers as the disk loads. On my Pio the display reads 192 Stereo. However when the film starts it finally picks up the DTS HD Master Audio track and I see this on my amp. Whenever you stop the disk and go back into the menus the buzzing starts again. If I select PCM Multichannel all is well.

As an experiment, I tried the same thing with a Blue ray disk....and do NOT get the same issue.......DTD HD Master audio is displayed correctly, but I do not get the speaker static as the disk loads or in the menus.

This points to the issue being with LG and the initial handshake with the pioneer on HDDVD. I am hoping that LG will fix this with a firmware update as this is the only issue I get with what is otherwise a superb player

It appears to be a "crapshoot" as to if it has the problem just with HD DVD, or both as in the case for me with the new SC-05 AVR. What country are you in, as I don't recognize your AVR number? Is this a recent model? If so, which USA model is it similar to? If the SC-05/07 then it is like mine (05), which neither BD or HD could play the proper bitstreamed audio. If it is the lower version similar to the VSX-01/03 TXH which I had for just 2 weeks, then that is the exact problem I had with my 03 - only with HD DVD.
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post #110 of 139 Old 09-23-2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX_Rocky View Post

It appears to be a "crapshoot" as to if it has the problem just with HD DVD, or both as in the case for me with the new SC-05 AVR. What country are you in, as I don't recognize your AVR number? Is this a recent model? If so, which USA model is it similar to? If the SC-05/07 then it is like mine (05), which neither BD or HD could play the proper bitstreamed audio. If it is the lower version similar to the VSX-01/03 TXH which I had for just 2 weeks, then that is the exact problem I had with my 03 - only with HD DVD.

Hi mate,

I am in the UK and my receiver is new out over here. I think it is the equivalent of the VSX-03 THX, which ties in with what you are saying

Interesting that the higher spec model has trouble with the bitstream output of both HD DVD and Blueray

Are we hopeful for a firmware fix for this in the future? Is there any means of reporting bugs to LG so they are at least aware of the issue?
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post #111 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 10:38 AM
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Just got off the phone with Pioneer regarding the DD+ bitstreaming error. They believe the LG is partially decoding the signal inside the player in error when it should be passing the bitstreamed signal undecoded. By the receiver indicating a pcm signal, the receiver has received a a decoded codec and can not do anything else to it. If the LG was operating correctly, the receiver would not indicate that it is receiving a LPCM signal. In other words, pioneer has determined that the BH200 is the problem. Not too surprising.
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post #112 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 10:47 AM
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You should forward this info to samsungmaster...


Quote:
Originally Posted by volleybradt View Post

Just got off the phone with Pioneer regarding the DD+ bitstreaming error. They believe the LG is partially decoding the signal inside the player in error when it should be passing the bitstreamed signal undecoded. By the receiver indicating a pcm signal, the receiver has received a a decoded codec and can not do anything else to it. If the LG was operating correctly, the receiver would not indicate that it is receiving a LPCM signal. In other words, pioneer has determined that the BH200 is the problem. Not too surprising.

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post #113 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 11:07 AM
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I was getting the same helicopter noise with my BH200 and an Onkyo 705 receiver. I switched back to the April firmware and the problem went away.

I have recently replaced the Onkyo with a Denon 889 and have no helicopter noise issues with the newer June firmware so to me it seems like the BH200 is not at fault on it's own.

Lorenzo
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post #114 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm curious if before the April Firmware update if the player bitstreamed DD+ or if it had problems with the DTS signal?
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post #115 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 12:12 PM
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I have not been able to bitstream dd+ since the January update.
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post #116 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzo1000 View Post

I was getting the same helicopter noise with my BH200 and an Onkyo 705 receiver. I switched back to the April firmware and the problem went away.

I have recently replaced the Onkyo with a Denon 889 and have no helicopter noise issues with the newer June firmware so to me it seems like the BH200 is not at fault on it's own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volleybradt View Post

I have not been able to bitstream dd+ since the January update.

Have you guys updated your DSP firmware on your Onkyos? I updated my DSPs and have not had any issues with bitstreaming.

My setup: LG BH-200 with June firmware connected via HDMI cable to Samsung 4681f via Onkyo 705 with latest DSP updates.
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post #117 of 139 Old 10-17-2008, 06:36 PM
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I have a Pioneer Elite 92
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post #118 of 139 Old 10-18-2008, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enormus View Post

Have you guys updated your DSP firmware on your Onkyos? I updated my DSPs and have not had any issues with bitstreaming.

My setup: LG BH-200 with June firmware connected via HDMI cable to Samsung 4681f via Onkyo 705 with latest DSP updates.

This time I do not belive it is the receiver, as was explained here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by volleybradt View Post

Just got off the phone with Pioneer regarding the DD+ bitstreaming error. They believe the LG is partially decoding the signal inside the player in error when it should be passing the bitstreamed signal undecoded. By the receiver indicating a pcm signal, the receiver has received a a decoded codec and can not do anything else to it. If the LG was operating correctly, the receiver would not indicate that it is receiving a LPCM signal. In other words, pioneer has determined that the BH200 is the problem. Not too surprising.

Many others have thought that LG, in such a rush to get the latest FW out the door to enable the codecs to bitstream out, may have broken their HDMI bitstream audio. But my problem was not my SC-05 seeing a PCM signal coming in, it displayed that it was a STEREO or 192mhz STEREO signal coming in from the BH200.

And as samsungmaster mentioned, at LAST LG seems to be taking these problems (and 4:3) seriously. About time!
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post #119 of 139 Old 11-01-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volleybradt View Post

I have a Pioneer Elite 92

I have a Pio Elite 91 and I also get the hellicopter "chop, chop" audio. Using the latest FW so will roll back to the April FW and see if that works.

It happens on every HD DVD disk except Pan's Labyrinth. No problems bitstreaming Blu-rays either.
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post #120 of 139 Old 11-01-2008, 11:54 AM
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I installed the 3/14 FW and still no luck. Hellicopter, Lawnmower, Boat, Static noise, etc on every HD DVD. No audio issues when set to PCM, PCM Multi, or DTS.
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